Say Again

Thank you SweetSue, I can't even re-read what I wrote - I was already a glass of wine in when I started that nonsense. I am sorry for your loss too. I know it is a confusing one for you - I think I get that and I hope you reach out and get all the support you need.

33 days ago my husband died and yet it still at times hits me as just being absolutely impossible. 32 years together and this is where it ends - regardless of the facts as he and I saw them - I guess that means death trumps all. There is this bizarre sub thinking process that existed always in my head - that "things will work out" type of thought. He certainly could not vanish at this point of his life because he had tons of unfinished business - especially in the relationship area and so we had to have that all worked out before he would ever face death or that would mean that "everything does not always work out" and who walks around with that thought? And I am having to let go with this after he died bizarre sub thinking process that is searching for details of his last moments/hours ~ thoughts/movements as if I can somehow change the outcome if I find the right information. No - he is dead and it does not matter how he always made things work out in the end, how he always came through because he is dead and his ashes are in that box over there and no matter how sick that makes me feel when I really let it sink in - he still does not come back and make it better - he still is gone. And ya know - I can really get so angry because how is anyone suppose to be able to accept that he is in a box over there and just move on and damn it that is what I am doing most of the time - just moving on - I shower and talk and do all of those things and then it hits me like it is right now and I want to punch a hole through a wall - which I would imagine is not a good idea but I am so angry because this is stupid - this whole system of life and death and I wish I had a way to reject it and protest it and I do know how stupid that sounds. I have spent much of my recent life trying not to be mindful that people I love can just vanish at any moment because it has caused me to make too many distorted and fear based decisions in my past. I thought I was being so strong to keep out of that state of mind. How f-ing ignorant though can one be that I end the last moments in this life that I had with my husband angry at him ~ never doubting that he would be there to ultimately fix things. I did the very thing my father did with his last moments with my Mom - her death being what kept me in such fear of death and what I finally thought I worked to gain control over. Unbelievable! Life is cruel because when a person you love dies - the anger can vanish with them and without the anger - nothing you felt towards them feels the same and so your last words to them can make very little sense - seem so selfish and out of control - at least in the emotional sense. My husband was an alcoholic and our life had become so complicated that we were all drowning in his addictions but I never really believed it could end here. The minute I had his body there before me - without the anger I so counted on - he became the love of my life again and all I wanted to do was to touch him, to kiss his precious forehead and to tell him how much I loved him. Who was I NOW? I certainly was not that person I had been just days - no - I just pulled up a calender to remind myself of the unthinkable - not days before but just the day before - that felt so abandoned and so unloved by this man. My ignorance has no end, prevents all answers from reaching my understanding and makes me a degree of tired that life cannot seem to reach ~ but all that means is that I so desperately want to not be here/be alive but I NEVER EVER WOULD DO ANYTHING TO END MY LIFE BECAUSE I COULD NOT CAUSE THAT LEVEL OF EMOTIONAL PAIN TO THOSE I LOVE and so no one EVER has to actually rescue me from self induced harm period - never ever. It is emotional pain that has me trapped because no matter how much it hurts I cannot just lay down and quit damn it and that makes me feel almost as if I am held down - trapped without a way out of this terror and I have a hard time catching my breath. Why terror? I do not know why I am so afraid. I might not make any sense at all. I will never make this post make sense

Wow ~ unbelievable Luna, My Step-son scared the daylights out of me with his behavior this last weekend. I so easily could have been planning 3 funerals and some other family could have been doing the same for their loved ones because of him. His Mother is doing all she can to get here within the next few days and will stay with him for a short while. I have been reading everything I can and it seems he shows signs of both depression and (hypo)mania. I have asked his Mom to start collecting data for me in regards to his behavior, moods, sleeping patterns ~ everything. I was just sitting down at my computer to make a chart of some type because she said she needs it all mapped out for her in regards to what to pay attention to. As typical ~ because it was something I was overwhelmed with doing ~ I distracted from it (just for a second “a quick peek” I told myself) and I went on this site. Thank you, Thank you, Thank you! You have no idea how much these chart options will help me. I also find your example descriptions helpful because I have noticed some very specific behaviors to him that indicate he has shifted into a different state. I think it will help her if I write those out so she can recognize the signs. It is just so bizarre to find this right here at the exact moment I needed it.

Look for me Mary ~ I am right there standing next to finding my way.

Notmary, I can offer you some of what I have learned about fear. I personally now understand that so many belief systems were set in place when I was three and my Mom died. I can logically (finally) see that the distrust formed from that moment DOES NOT have to have a specific place to land ~ no actions of another are always necessary to trigger it ~ it was the fear of loss. Notmary ~ if someone would have taken my Dad away after my Mom died (as you were taken from your Mom after losing your Dad) I cannot even begin to imagine the devastating impact that would have had on my mental well being. As it was, the rituals I created to keep those I dared to love alive were painful and exhausting – things that intellectually I knew had no impact on if someone lived or died ~ yet it was that fear of losing them that preventing me from even considering stopping. I beat myself up for this until only a few years ago. Your fears might be as unnamed as mine were to me but the fact is ~ the intensity of it is still very real. So in hindsight from that experience I feel it is BETTER to respect a fear (instead of faulting yourself for having it because it seems so illogical) because from THAT position you are better able to gain insight as to the source of it and the purpose it was created to serve. I am crushed from the little you have described about your childhood history. It is painful to consider you as a child having to negotiate your way through the day in and day out of that ~ and the impact that must have on your life now as an adult. The thought that after all of that you ended up in the hands of someone that abused you is overwhelming. There is the flip side of that Notmary that speaks to what you posted earlier about this person that abused you taking your spirit. Your very life is to me such a profound tribute to the human spirit and with all due respect ~ I do not trust your perspective on that at this moment and wholly trust mine. I want with all of my heart for you to be able to borrow my trust in this. Life experience has put you in a battle and that spirit is in fact what has kept you standing and fighting the entire time. I can relate to the second guessing you do about the posts you put on here. Honestly Notmary, I spend so much time on most every post I write on here that most would find it unbelievable ~ I second guess myself to death. I feel shame when I include anything about my past and so often feel that I am driving people bonkers with my thoughts. I can assure you though that I personally am disappointed when you have not posted for a while. I do hope you keep posting.

David O, I liked the "growth comes from reaching towards the light" description you give. I am having trouble understanding something you wrote. Unless someone is not in actual pain (directly from the shame) but instead is coming to you because society demands they change behavior or else (for example ~ maybe an addict, or a spouse who has drawn the line and demands some show of desire to change from your client) ~ why else would someone that seeks help hold back information unless it is due to shame, fear of rejection and/or inability to trust? An issue (of great importance) is presented to you in the very fact that they are not open with you. So why would that issue be reason for the client to be turned away? What about the often most powerful way we impact another human being ~ in the planting of seed? What would warrant turning those opportunities away? Is my lack of knowledge with this blinding me to another side of it?

Allen, Your response hits home with me personally and on behalf of Notmary because I feel it deeply from the standpoint of being a client in this situation (and think Notmary is in a similar situation). What David O and IrmaJean speak of makes complete sense BUT sometimes (as you seem to be saying in your post) the barriers that are keeping someone from being open NEED TO BE the main issue discussed in therapy before one can even get to the issues being withheld. I personally believe that the therapist should operate on assumption with this area and consistently speak to therapist/client trust. I wish the point was driven home to the client as a normal part of every session. To explain to and remind the client often that it would be beneficial to both therapist and client for them to find the most comfortable way (journals etc…) to bring any doubts / deep shameful issues / lack of comfort into the sessions in my mind is the only (or most time saving) way to break these barriers. I believe if a client is left unable to bring out the serious issues (from discomfort) for too long ~ their self-esteem starts to suffer from the therapy experience and other factors start to offer a reasonable way out ~ money, time, lack of progress etc…

I would like to offer a suggestion Notmary. It seems you have found some level of comfort in expressing the thoughts and pain with those of us on this board ~ you must know how much we care about you. It sounds too frightening for you to go deeper into some of the areas that are causing you so much pain and it might be important you only do such work with your therapist at your side. Would it be possible for you to print out and give your therapist some of the posts from this site that would give description of what you are experiencing? This is a bad idea if it would change the way you feel about writing on here. It would mean that the therapist could easily find these posts. So I guess it would depend on your relationship with the therapist and on if you feel it would benefit you and your therapist by giving more insight into your pain. I think of you often and do hope that you keep posting. Say Again

Also this part Notmary, if you care to give more detail to these thoughts. Just skip over my posts if you are not up to it ~ I am not going to take it to mean anything negative if you do. Say Again

Hi Notmary, I too have been thinking about you and it is good to find you back on here with us. Can you share a little about what this was like for you (if you care to): Say Again

Please do not be discouraged Notmary, This is the method I used (in part) to get out from underneath a stubborn self blame / self hate pattern I suffered and I did not fully understand this piece until I read your post today. I too had the ability to feel deep compassion for those victimized by abuse and yet had none for myself. If I were at this very moment to mentally pluck myself out of one of the scenes from my childhood and envision my Granddaughter in it ~ I cannot even allow myself to stay with it a second because of the pain. I have zero feelings when I am that child. Regardless of the fact that this contrast existed (exists) ~ it never was of ANY help to me until I SPECIFICALLY set out to connect and compare this information. By bringing the contrast into your awareness ~ you are giving yourself valuable clarity into your thinking that can challenge the way you see yourself. It creates a tension that takes away some of the credibility from that emotional perspective that has had free rein with this for most of your life. Once you reach that level of thinking ~ where you feel something such as shame and instead of just believing it must be deserved ~ you now question if it is even based in logic ~ you are in a new place and this is a place where you can make great change in your life. I cannot thank you enough for this because I know that this piece is a key to how I got from where I was to where I am. This is reminding me of how important it is and how I can actively use it for any areas that I find I am being too hard in how I view myself. I am bad about tracking time but it has been months ~ maybe a year... ~ since I have curled up on the floor and cried until I could not anymore and many other behaviors that were patterns of how I tried to cope. I use to sit at my computer and type as if it was a letter to myself – “You are a worthless stupid f***ing b**ch” and on and on and it was the only relief from the pain I could find. I had page after page of this and I do not know how in the world I survived it. Why? It was the shame Notmary. Something I just recently posted on another thread brought back to mind this lack of feeling I have for the pain I am certain I must have felt as a child. What you have helped me to put to rest and to so clearly understand is that I do not have to feel that pain again in order to create and have compassion for myself right now. What is important is that I accept that the evidence is telling me that I am seeing it distorted. I applaud you for taking any suggestions that offer a chance of bringing you toward the life you deserve. Most all of us here know how difficult it is to grab hold of hope from the darkness of despair. Never let go because we are all counting on you.

I went back just now and read a post you wrote about how your Mother treated you and think to myself that it must have been such a confusing complicated painful experience to have had to navigate yourself through. What I find is sad about that for you is that you did not feel any love for you coming from her. Anything I might have suffered as a child was always offset by the absolute confidence I had in my Dad’s love for me. My hat is off to you for making your way Hermitt.

Let me thank you Notmary for you are my much needed evidence and it is breaking my heart. I just came to this thread this morning, printed it out and read every word. I got myself in such a tizzy, scribbling out notes as I read, getting so angry and concerned about you and Sweetsue and at the thought of all of us that are in so much pain because of the shame we carry ~ for the burden of it and the impact on our lives and this world. I write this to those of us that carry undeserved shame (including myself). Let me state from the start that this in my reaction to this thread and so that is opinion only because I am not a professional in these issues. We are talking about something that happened to a 7 year old girl. It is not the specific age that matters really because it happens to children of all ages – and what we are really talking about here is the vulnerable. Notmary ~ I believe that what is happening here is that you are unable to take in any of the words people are offering you because you are filtering it through the way that you feel about yourself RIGHT NOW. What you need more than anything else is some hard OBJECTIVE evidence (that is convincing to you) of where the shame and responsibility of the acts against the vulnerable should fall that can then be transferred to your situation. Also ~ and this is crucial that you understand ~ how any self destructive behaviors that played out in the subsequent years make absolute perfect, logical sense and are not to fall under the category of, “what this says about me”. It really belongs in the category of, I AM NORMAL! Let me give you some reason to take this piece seriously. What is preventing you from getting help ~ from getting to the other side of this ~ from seeing a future without this heavy pain is the shame. The shame is an emotion that comes from your view of this situation and your view of this situation comes from the shame. Those of us standing on the outside are very clear that what happened is not for you to carry with shame. If you expect me to feel shame for you ~ you are expecting me to walk into the scene of your childhood, stand there and feel shame for a child I am witnessing being abused by the adult ~ an impossibility. Even people that are in their own shame cycle for the same reason that you are in your own shame cycle (for example SweetSue) can easily see you objectively and recognize that you in reality have no shame to carry. SweetSue you will find the evidence that will set you free in your own clarity with Notmary. You are seeing the truth with her that you cannot see in regards to you. This suggestion may be too outside of the box and a professional should step in and straighten me out if this is not a healthy tactic to take. Find any stories (news, on-line search) of sexual child abuse – give yourself a number (I suggest at least 5) and use as many as needed to make a firm emotional imprint. My point is that this truth I am presenting needs to be powerful enough when you transfer what you have learned from it to your own self image - to get past that stubborn self perception. Get the basic information – age of the victim and relationship to the perpetrator if possible. Now take that information and imagine you have one of those little victims in front of you. Start saying the words that would inflict shame, responsibility and guilt onto that already wounded soul. Tell that child that this is their own fault. And next imagine the perpetrator is in front of you. Tell this person (Uncle, Father, Grandfather, brother, best friend to the family and so on) that they were not completely responsible for what they did to that child and the child is to share the blame. What is every fiber of your being telling you as you try to make it through this process? What did that child’s face tell you as they took in your words? What unjust damage do you think you were inflicting on that life? And how did it feel to take that shame – some of that responsibility off of the perpetrator? How honest do you feel the information you were conveying really is? If you made it through that process you have now experienced objectively what you have been doing to your own soul for how many years? Now take those 5 stories and go back in one by one, only this time with the truth that you know in your heart is the only truth to this situation. You know what to say to that child just as everyone on this site knew exactly what to say to you and were so emotionally compelled to do. Are any of those children the exception to this being the truth? Ask that because if that faulty thinking comes up when you think in regards to yourself – I want you to find a child in these stories that would be the exception. If you are the exception – there HAS to be another. SweetSue thinks she is the exception. Is she the exception Notmary? She is not and neither are you. Challenge yourself – do not accept something if it does not make sense! After you have taken those steps go back to the beginning of the thread and read every single post to you. Are you finding the very words you imagined saying to the victims in the stories when you were speaking the truth? These people on here are telling you absolute truth and were feeling what you felt as you imagined speaking it to those victims. Can you feel it now Notmary? If the source of shame seems more bound to the life experiences after the actual acts against you – follow the same procedure with the people from the stories. Imagine those victims living in guilt and shame and any of the self destructive patterns that came from it. What do you honestly feel about that when the subject is one of those victims and not you? There is your clarity in this and you must grab hold of it and transfer that to how you view your own life because there are NO exceptions Notmary. Notmary ~ the courage people tell you they recognize in you is real. You are in a significant way going to battle for ever person on here that suffers as you do. For some you are the only voice they have of the pain they are feeling. And still others find in your example the courage they need to come forward and share their own pain. And every time someone reaches out to help you move forward in this they too grow in self awareness and strength. The statements, “you are not alone” also mean that when you have the courage to let us join you in working through this ~ we are not alone.

I wish I had found your reply months ago (I have such a challenge with those types of things). I too think that those experiences could be the original source of what you have been dealing with for most of your life. The shame you have attached to this pattern or phobia is part of the roadblock (in my opinion) to healing – the least of it being in the embarrassment you might feel in talking to a therapist about it. I think the shame is something worthwhile that you can start working on right now. A 7 year old formed this phobia. The fact is that you had no control over what meaning your 7 year old mind gave those experiences. The fact is that you also had no more hope of punching back in a fight than any other person has of overcoming their phobia without specific knowledge and support. When you think of the minds, the energy and devotion that must have gone into what it took to have identified the process for overcoming these exact conditions you might even laugh that you have been kicking yourself for not figuring it all out on your own. I just happen to have been told a hilarious story recently that might give you more evidence of just how powerful a phobia can be and how little it has to do with if a person is courageous. My adult son has a friend he has known since childhood. This guy is a police officer, on a gang unit and works a tough territory. One day he was leading a team into a gang house and they bang on the door – announce they have a warrant and bust the door open and enter. With guns ready to fire they all enter at this guys lead. Just inside the door is a doorway on the right, he turns, immediately circles back left, another left out the front door as they all follow. It seems he encountered a terrarium with a large snake (his phobia) in it and as a matter of fact could not re-enter that house period! It has to help that he views it from the perspective of humor. Here is another way of looking at it that might help you to change your feeling of shame. If you feel you fully understand that this is not about courage and find you are still feeling shame, you need to accept something you might not like and that is that you are viewing this in exactly the same way your Father would view it. If you can imagine one of your friends in the same predicament and you can feel compassion and are open to understanding your friend’s situation intellectually ~ I suggest you are using your Fathers perspective to view yourself. If your whole philosophy of life regarding human beings is the opposite of your Fathers – you cannot make your view of yourself the exception. For what meaning is there in what you stand for if it does not hold steady under the most challenging test of it and in this case that would be in how you view yourself. What I find interesting is that you and I might have some similar reasons for developing such compassion ~ Fathers that dealt and instructed us poorly in regards to anger. My Father had a quick hot and violent temper and I spent most of my childhood keeping it under control. You and I both could have become similar to our Fathers in that regard but instead went the opposite path and I so deeply appreciate both of us for that. I am not diminishing the seriousness of this in the least and agree that you should have a healthy concern because being in circumstances that require you to fight is a very real possibility. What I am suggesting is you expand your view of this with any information that helps you to do so ~ so that you can reach a different place from which you operate regarding it. I believe it is from that place that you will have what it takes to find the path out. I can guide you to information that will explain some techniques used for eliminating a phobia. If you have not already started working with a therapist this information might help you to prepare for such a meeting. I wish you the best with this.

Hi Dave Okay – this should be my last link to give to you. http://www.cognitivebehavior.com/index.html I suggest you disregard who the information is written for – which varies somewhat. So for example in many of the instruction documents you will notice they are guiding the therapist on how to walk the “child” through each step of the cognitive behavior therapy. It is not important that you are not in the role of therapist or child– what is important is the information. What I gained in reading this material is a deeper level of understanding of how the mind works and steps we can take to alter habitual thinking patterns and create a happy life. My husband is finding this information interesting, helpful, continues to ask for more to read and is actually starting to show signs of having hope. I can’t help but to think if he can maintain interest in this – ANYONE CAN! These are the links I followed when I first found the site: (Home >> Practice >> Tools >> Instruction) because I found so much that interested me in the Individual category. They also have support material and the tools to supply you with what you need. I would suggest you search every corner of this site – there is just so much here.