TheSpotlessPane

I vibe on this. Thanks to both of you. Acceptance of the self is essential. In my experience, something very important is that your "self" need not be defined by actions taken in the past. This is something I've struggled with (and continue to struggle with, in all honesty). If your actions, or "fruits" are the result of who you are, and you've done reprehensible things, then how are you to accept yourself? Maybe to reject yourself would be a rather principled (and courageous - given the pain of self rejection) thing? I guess it all comes back to letting go of the past like victim said. But how do we separate ourselves from the fact that our past is the result of who we ARE?

Hey victim, just wanted to chime in and offer my support, as this is something I struggle with as well. Congrats on successfully cutting back, that is absolutely huge to me. I hope you have stayed the course and are doing well.

Regardless of whether or not future generations are doomed, or whether or not human beings are naturally more exploitative than cooperative, or whether or not general morality is a social construct, I'm too drained to feel any sense or responsibility for all that. I just want to be happy. And anything that might help me to acheive that achingly difficult goal is something I'm trying to feel grateful to have encountered. I'll leave the rest to the academics, and those who are emotionally stable enough to keep from collapsing under the weight of the deeper questions. I'm not trying to change the world, here, just myself. Seems like a humble enough goal...who'da thunk it'd be so ****ing difficult?

Thank you for the warm welcome, Irma. Yes, I do love just about any creative project. I produce music (though haven't done much of it lately), and I absolutely love it. My art often ends up feeling a bit contrived, though (go figure); but in those moments where the intellect isn't corrupting the creative process, it can be truly liberating. And to Finding, thanks for that wisdom. Reminds me that who we think we are right now doesn't have to bind us to a future of self rejection. Maybe acting out of character is an essential part of discovering a new identity. If I force myself to do and say nice things (fake and manipulative as it may seem in the moment), maybe one day, I'll come to be believe I'm a nice person. Especially when those nice things are reflected back. Wish it wasn't so much easier said than done, but at least it's a lead to go on. EDIT: oh, also wanted to express my agreement on the internet forum bit. I feel stupid when I try to adopt new attitudes around people who already know me, because it makes me feel like I'm in denial, or trying to evade responsbility for who I've been, or even like I'm just being downright fake. The internet is a great place to escape the tyranny of your own reputation. It's one of the very few places where that inner, self hating voice isn't QUITE so persuasive. Thanks again, everyone.

It's crazy how much I identify with everything you said, Lawliet. When someone is good at the same things as me, it can turn my world upside down. Almost like their very existence constitutes an attack on my value as a person. I am also often emotionally disconnected from others like you. Maybe part of it is the paranoia. When you see others as wanting nothing more than to threaten your dignity, it can be hard to have any warm feelings for them. On how to fix this, I unfortunately don't have much wisdom to offer - still working on that one, myself. Hopefully, it helps to know you're not alone, though.

Most definitely. Maybe my confusion is evidence of those limitations. Thank you for your consistent, and consistently positive feedback. You're probably already aware of this, but it has an incredible impact.

Yeah, though I haven't thought about it in exactly those terms. I think I reject my own emotions, or at least I insist on imposing logic on them before I feel comfortable expressing them. It's like I have to mathematically prove the legitimacy of an emotion before I feel justified in experiencing it...because I'm perfect and all, and my emotions only yield 100% objective truth (not really). Honestly, I think I just have an underdeveloped tolerance for hardship. I was spoiled growing up. And I am a product of this new age self esteem movement. Where everything you do is precious and unique. I feel deprived when I'm not receiving feedback that suggests that I'm an ultra valuable, indespensable person. I grew up hearing so many self esteem building things; and my identity developed around an over emphasized sense of self importance. It's like a messiah complex or something. At this point, I feel inadaquate if I'm not top dog; and I feel indignant if I am not treated as such. Intellectually, I know that this attitude is completely ridiculous. I don't walk around ensuring that others feel important, and if everyone required the constant praise and gratification that I seem to, it would just be...well...it just wouldn't work...it would be absurd...completely at odds with everything that makes a society functional. But I don't know how to desire something more reasonable. How do you change what you hunger for? This is why I feel helpless. I'm insanely self centered. When I see blurbs on sociopathy/narcissism/what-have-you I retreat into a sort of defensive, philosophical numbness...like...ok...yeah, we suck...but we didn't choose to be this way...and I guarantee you, we deal with internal conflicts that you can't even imagine...so...**** you and stuff. I think this is one reason that spirituality is repulsive to people like us. Spirituality is great at arbitrarily assigning value and meaning to people who appear to lack value otherwise. People with all manner of illness are "God's creatures"...but not sociopaths. Down's syndrome is not a choice. Physical abnormalities are not a choice. But an inherent fixation on one's own gratification, and an inherent lack of attention to the well being of others IS a choice. It's so at odds with the rhetoric of society that I feel absurd even typing it. But the essence is this: spirituality teaches us to accept things that are otherwise difficult to accept. It says "yes, you may be blind, but your blindness is supremely valuable and necessary BY VIRTUE OF ITS EXISTENCE." This is incredibly powerful. It allows us to achieve a deeper intimacy with, and appreciation for the things that ARE. But it is as bound by the laws of evolutionary progress as anything else, despite its insistence on being so high and mighty. Everything is perfect and necessary by virtue of its existence EXCEPT for antisocial behavior. Chronic anti social behavior reflects a depravity as low as the spirituality that persecutes it is high. We're all animals. This is the only truth that dignifies me. I've had a bit to drink. So...sorry if this feels like a rant. I just feel that I am beyond salvation, and I can absolutely guarantee you, I NEVER consciously chose to be incompatible with a society that I so desperately want to be a part of. never. EDIT: none of this is aimed at anyone here.

ha, yeah, that's the catch 22, it seems. It's unfortunately so easy to identify (at least in part) with nearly every aspect of nearly every personality disorder - which is poison for a psychological hypochondriac. It's also really easy to get lost in a philosophical labyrinth. I used to think all human interactions ran off of a certain amount of self gratification. People enjoy the company of those from whom they gain some kind of psychological reward. It's just that most people don't examine their own social behavior closely enough to catch the selfishness that we all have in common. But, over time, I have slowly begun to think maybe this is just the natural conclusion of a sociopath. I conceptualize the thoughts and behavior of others on the basis of my own. My own thoughts and behavior are my only reference point from which to understand that of others. But maybe the reason I've failed (if I HAVE, in fact failed) to adequately account for the behavior of others is because we are two different creatures. The premise that I am the same as everyone else was perhaps flawed from day one. But how was I supposed to know? OR...maybe my dispassionate perspective on human behavior is completely legitimate, in which case, it might just be a nuance of my introspection that I have come identify it, while others remain comfortably unaware. ****ing philosophical labyrinth. Ugh... I actually listened to a lecture recently that was all about exactly what you said. It was all about how psychiatric illnesses fluctuate with the cultural context. One example it mentioned was that not too long ago, homosexuality was classified as a psychological disorder, and this was eventually removed and replaced with homoPHOBIA. Interesting how someone could be clinically ill and miraculously recover when the vote shifts. Really interesting stuff and it completely drove your point home.

According to my understanding, I would actually say not necessarily. Supposedly, the vast majority of sociopaths are not unusually inclined to violence or criminal behavior of any kind. As I understand it, sociopathy refers specifically to an inability to connect emotionally with others, and (maybe by extension) an inability to empathize with others. This doesn't mean they "get off" on hurting people. The ones who do are extremely rare, supposedly. These "functioning" sociopaths are the ones I'm interested in. The ones who are just sort of out there in limbo. This information is no secret (that there are millions of law abiding sociopaths), and yet, even these innocuous sociopaths seem to be viewed and described as sub-human. Like tolerable insects. What is it like for them? Are they aware that something isn't right in the way they relate to others? Do they feel alone, and at a loss to explain why? I suspect many of them ARE aware that they are different. Obviously, these questions have a very personal importance to me. It's more than an academic interest. Is suicide the only dignified action that one such person could take? Is there nothing of value in these people? These people afflicted with something that I prefer to call a strange form of autism? (I'm not considering suicide, for the record). I don't know. It's an extremely mind boggling, exhausting topic, and I'm coming dangerously close to rambling. I want to share an article that was incredibly powerful to me for any who are similarly interested. It's called The Hidden Suffering of The Psychopath and was featured on psychiatric times. http://www.psychiatrictimes.com/psychotic-affective-disorders/hidden-suffering-psychopath-0 Lastly, again, I'm just the layman, here. Many people far more intelligent than me have spent a lot of time with all of this. So I probably don't have any earth shattering insights, here. And maybe I'm not a sociopath at all, so maybe I'm imparting qualities on these people in a completely ignorant way. I don't know. Things get very confusing, very quickly when you start analyzing yourself. Just some thoughts. Life is hard and stuff.

Thanks for the response. Yes, I have certainly had some unbearably humiliating experiences - to the point that I almost feel as if I've edited them out of my identity entirely. Like a weird detachment from one's own past. But this explanation for my callousness has begun to lose its power. From the small bits of research I've done, humiliation is a core component of Narcissistic Personality Disorder, which (also from my research) appears to be nearly synonymous with ASPD. I of course may be mistaken, since I'm not a professional, and have only casually explored these topics. But in light of this perspective, it's getting harder to believe that my character is any more dignified than that of your run-of-the-mill sociopath, especially given the fact that my "unbearably humiliating" experiences haven't been remotely terrible in a more objective sense. I haven't been raped or beat up. I haven't been abused in any noteworthy capacity at all. I've really had a picturesque life by all appearances. I guess I just don't feel like my experiences have been extraordinary enough to justify who I am, unless I was simply wired to be an ass to begin with. Vindication and vengeance are certainly strong emotions in me. But many people who have had it MUCH worse don't fixate on those "anti social" emotions the way I do. And they're able to enjoy interpersonal relationships solely for the sake of intimacy. Naturally, I feel that Pscyhology's understanding of sociopathy is quite lacking, as someone who appears to have all the signs and symptoms, but who is also forced to believe that his life is meaningful. Thanks again for the response, and hopefully I haven't been too over-indulgent with this me-time.

Sorry for the necro post, but I created an account just to respond to this. The administrator's response was deeply moving to me, as was the original poster's question. I don't know if I truly have ASPD, but it's something I have considered a great deal. I have tried to find others with similar experiences, but much like the OP, I have only found forums for VICTIMS of those with ASPD. I have discovered over time that I am driven exclusively by a need to be "perceived" in a certain way. If an interaction will not improve my image, it lacks importance entirely. This isn't something I realized until after many years of introspection. Though, external factors did inspire the search. I NEED to be loved, and (more unusually) admired. I will respect you only insomuch as you provide me with the empowerment that I apparently crave. Needless to say, I feel incredibly lonely, as these behaviors have gradually alienated people. The problem is that I can't change my motives. Even if I become a master of disguise, and successfully re-integrate myself into a social community, I will still be the same shallow person I always was. Only now, I'll be "better" at extracting my resource (attention, flattery, adoration, whatever), because I'll know better than to expose myself. This outcome does not appeal to me. It would be equivalently lonely, but maybe a bit less unbearable. This upsets me. Perhaps a true sociopath would not be upset by this. I don't know. I personally think they probably would. That's another thing I've been interested in. Do sociopaths know they're sociopaths? And do they wish they were normal? Anyway, that's getting off topic. I can't express enough how much I love the administrator's post. So incredibly honest and absent of propoganda. So genuinely welcoming of any person who is in pain. And so courageos in acknowledging the right/wrong bit. Thank you.