how do u reconcile this.

[nathan]

How do you reconcile religious perspectives with attracting women??

Assuming religioun is taken to be a nullifying of the ego, and a sort of medatative practice.

First such perspectives can be a useful thing in attracting women in the sense that if you really do inhabit a sort of egoless space, you are less apt to dwell on transient things, which produces a less 'clingy' and 'needy' type of personality, which tends to facilitate attraction regardless of sex.

But then the other side to attraction, is competition. When you have other males competing for the same woman, do you not have to be selfish? Do you not have to secure a position high up in the social heirarchy? And to do so do you not have to 'dominate' other males?

It seems sure seems to be so. You don't see women attracted to the guys who do not participate in such games. Usually when there is competition, I just respect it, I don't confront the conflicting intentions between me, and the competition.

Then again, other males tend to behave the same towards me. Usually there is no direct confrontation. The game to 'dominate' other males isn't won by intimidating other males, or starting fights with other males, it is won by being the male who is least intimidated.

Women are attracted to this 'ease' becuase the like to have something to dance their emotions and thoughts around. The less a male is at ease, the less they are free to dance. Hence, they go for the male who is most at ease. In a sense, things like meditation promotes this ease. In a sense, depending on your interpretations, christian stories also represent the path to this 'ease' in a more visual, but obviously symbolic way... If you read something like augustines confessions, his ascending attitude, his path to god, is very much a stripping of all egoic, transient things in his life, including women. IT seems to very much parallel with the lets say..patterns.. that one goes through during meditation...and also the patterns that one goes through it least in part, for attracting women.

It almost liek we this path is self contradictory...The very path that helps a man attract a woman, is also the path that tries to go passed the very need to attract women in the first place.

more over though, You can't be a dominant male if you are intimidated by other males. Other males tend not to directly confront eachother, so it is hard to see why or how any male would be intimidated anyway.

But males are often very intimidated by other males, usually by self deception, false thoughts, but also because of the very real conflict of interest. So the battle for dominance via, finding that inner ease becomes more difficult. There's more pressure. If the other male is much more at ease than you are, he is definitely more likely to be attracting the women. It basically becomes a battle for this 'ease' then. If you break that ease, there's going to be a potential effect of loosing your place in the hierchy, and consequently, loosing your woman.

Males confront eachother, not directly on the subject of the woman, but rather, the force that attracts the woman in the first place-your inner level of 'ease' , the same medatative pathway. This is the only real socially acceptable way for men to confront eachother in regards to their conflict of interest...

This is often exploited by other males. If they catch some unease in you they will try to expose it, and thus put you lower down in the hierchy, and consequently have less competition. For instance if a woman witnesses a man catch another man's unease, she will view the former as more dominant, more attractive, more at ease. The female doesnt need to even witness the actual exchange however, becuase once a heirchy is created between the men alone, their relative ease or unease will become obvious within teh group. The heirchy will have been created anyway.

How can this ascending, spiritual path, be so intertwined with such things?

How can one who is most at ease, also be the one to exploit other people's unease? How can you be 'egoless' while also being the one who dominates? IT seems both necessary and contradictory.

[spiritual_emergency]

Here's something to think about: To be truly powerful is to require no power at all.

Meantime, my own opinion on the matter is that "I" cannot function in this world in an egoless state. For me, this is based on the belief that the need for an ego arises out of the reality of having a physical body and trying to secure for it, the things that a body needs (like food and shelter) and wants (like physical intimacy and procreation). If we had no body, we would not have the need for an ego. But here we are... in a body.

That being said, there are different kinds of egos. Consider for example the ego of a man who wants to live on the land, build his own home with his bare hands and grow his own food. Alternatively, consider the ego of a man who wants to own a fine and expensive home, drive the latest model of car and go to work in a hand-tailored Italian suit. They both have an ego but those egos manifest differently. They are also each afforded a degree of status by the people (society) around them but the value of their status is subjective.

Now consider the type of woman who might be attracted to those men. It's quite likely that a woman who wants to live in a highrise in the city, go to the theatre and opera, and vacation in the south of France is going to find one of those men more attractive than the other. By the same token, a woman who loved animals, hiking and yoga, and was devoted to eating vegetarian would also likely be attracted to one man more than the other.

I think, in terms of making peace with the need to have an ego, is to develop an authentic ego. In other words, know who you are and then, be who you are. Trust that someone else will find value in that and will want to be with you because you share a similar value system.

[nathan]

yes the authentic ego. I believe thats what the buddhists mean when they say

' true tao is that which you cannot deviate from", meaning the soul underlies everything, even ego... thereby eliminating the duelism between ego and soul.

But before you reach the true tao, you have to master meditations, where you distance yourself from your ego. So you first have to see the distinctions between ego and soul, but then integrate them into one whole.

or something like that. The problem I have is that when I am attracting woman, particularly attractive ones where there is lots of competition. Its not like there's one woman for the farmer and one woman for the guy with a nice car and condo that just fall into place like that.

its more like theres one (attractive) woman and ten interested farmers. Or one women for 10 interested wealthy men.

So, if your authentic ego wants the woman, well you have to be the best. There is no other way. She wont go for the wealthy man that is marginally attractive if there is another wealthy man that is much more attractive.

You have to be the dominant male if you want to fullfil the authentic ego's desire.

and Im trying to figure out i suppose, how the authentic ego would go about doing this.

For instance if there is another male who IS more at 'ease', more attractive than myself, and I know the woman will prefer him over myself. But lets say I have an opportunity to decieve or expose this male and make him appear less attractive than he really is, an thereby, in a sense, decieve the woman into prefering myself...Or it could be the reverse. this happens ALL the time between males. Is that authentic ego? something seems inherently wrong with that. I am actually somewhat guilty when I do this myself.

I feel like I am stabbing a brother in the back.

Moreover though, the more a male is at 'ease' the more the woman should be attracted to him, yet the more a male is at ease, the less he feels the need to decieve in order to get the woman. Basically then, you often get males that are at a lesser state of ease 'stealing' the woman through deception.

I mean a male exposing a lesser male is fine, becuase it is inevitable anyway. But when a male exposes a male of more depth and ease then himself, well then...

Should I be the male who 'steals' or should I be the one who stays true to myself? how do you reconcile that?

[CantGiveItAway]

I really like alot of what spiritual was saying.

The most important thing you could be in whatever you do is be authentic. You dont know what that woman finds attractive if youve never spoken to her so why do you assume the guy next to you is to her even if he is to you. All you can be is yourself and hope that there is people that you click with. There is a person behind that wealthy man and farmer and a certain kind of chemistry and compatabilty that people have with each other and that can happen with a homeless girl or the Queen of England:) All people male and female rate qualities they see attractive and that they think are important diffrently.

When I talk to girls I just like to wing it all the time lol. And that can have its advantages and disadvantages, I mean sometimes you just dont have it:) but I never have any routine planned or a bunch of lines to throw at them and I want nothin to do with any kind of How To Attract Women or any kind of stuff or book like that. Id rather be in the moment and try to come up with something right there and even if I do say something that I think is stupid she still might laugh or smile or say something that I think is funny or that I could respond to in some way. I would never put someone down to try and really hurt them to gain the attention of a woman or make myself appear to be better or cooler to her and if thats what looks attractive to her then she definitly aint for me and it wouldnt bother me abit.

[nathan]

Yeah its is about being comfortable with yourself and being in the moment, thats the most important thing, that is what woman like to dance around. That is something that all woman are attracted to. Some lines might get some initial attention, but they'll obviously be worthless if you aren't yourself. Lines arn't necessarily bad, they can be funny and fun, and as long as they are I think they are okay.

but Im not really talking about putting down males in any direct sense. Doing so wouldn't benefit anyone. ITs more indirect then that. What if I knew another males weakness, and I said something to him, not a put down, but a thougth that I know will cause him to loose his 'being in the moment, authentic self', well then instantly the dynamics have changed. There will be me still in the moment, my authentic self, then there will be the other guy tripping out about something. If we are at a bar with woman, who then is more likely to take home the woman? By appearance I would appear to be the more dominant male, though this may or may not really be true becuase I have exploited the other male.

This happens all the time...

I'm not saying I like doing this, or that I often relly on it, I'm just trying to talk about things that I have noticed and have bothered me on some level.

[Guest ASchwartz]

Nathan,

So, how do we reconcile the religious perspective with attracting women?

Why do you believe there is anything to reconcile?

You really believe that attracting a woman has to do with competition? Why? Its not like there is a shortage of women. Is it that you like to compete?

Allan

[randomperson]

I read once something that compared developing relationships of any kind to working with a bank. Each thing you do either makes deposits or withdrawals.

Deposits vary depending on each individual and what is important to them. Relationship problems happen when you 'go into the red' and your withdrawals exceed your deposits.

It actually mentioned this topic you speak of. What seems to be positive actually can be negative. If you are doing harm to another to pursue said woman and she knows of this, often in the back of her mind she will be thinking what would stop him from doing something like this to me?

True you would put one man out of the competition but at the same time if she is a good hearted person you have also damaged your position with her.

At the same time it is different from defending yourself or keeping her from some type of harm.

To point out someone's weak spot often draws more attention to your own.

Talking about indirectly things the woman will never notice I understand what you are saying.

Personally I would never do things like that and it does bother me when I see it.

It is essentially a question on ethics.

If you saw Bill Gates drop a hundred dollars you knew he would not miss it and never know it was gone.. you were low on money, bills past due.. would you take it?

To each person it is a very personal question with a very personal response.

[nathan]

That conflict has been bothering me. Although if bill gates droped a bill I'd definitely keep it. Not that we shouldnt have morals, our capacity to develop them (tho on different levels), in my opinion, necessitates them. But 'any good rule has exceptions' I suppose.

I guess it does come down to personal choice though.

Allen, maybe I am looking at it too narrowly or something, but I think there is competition among men for women. Yes there is no shortage of women, but there are much less attractive women. Men compete for them. Women don't pick one at random, there are various traits they look for, I think this stimulates competition. And I dont know whether I 'like' the competition, but I feel like I have felt it and seen it and participated in it.

[randomperson]

I do agree with you on the competition though for me it is more 'unseen'.

I know many men that have just gave up on dating. They are actually finding true inner peace.. much more than anyone else I know. Making me rethink things myself.

Here I am worried about being alone when I have friends I can go out and do things. Why do I need to stress about a woman 'liking' me? Why do I have to force myself into this competition if it will just make me miserable and reinforce negative phobias that have plagued me for decades?

I'm not sure.. like you I am conflicted in all of this. Pondering my thoughts and what I want to do.

[nathan]

Yeah well you really shouldnt worry about whether a women lieks you, it causes you pain and gives off unattractive vibes. But of course that is a struggle because you have been alone for so long. I think the majority of men out there can relate to that. your friends that say they are actually finding 'inner peace', if they really are, they are probably going to find themselves attracting more women then before.

But ultimately you need more than inner peace, you need some selfishness to close the deal. To negate the competition. Certain steps have to be taken. So there is a kind of a balancing of opposites there. Its difficult to balance becuase either side is so luring. Its easy to become too one-sided, and yet you sort of have to be at both sides at once. And to what degrees? How selfish is too selfish? How much inner peace is too much to get things done?

This is confused further when you consider other males you are competing with. When their selfishness conflicts with your interest, to what degree should that be allowed? Are they going to play a more balanced game, or are they going to exploit you at every given chance? How should your inner balance between peace and selfishness interact with their, potentially more, or maybe less balanced state?

[Athena]

Yes there is no shortage of women, but there are much less attractive women. Men compete for them.

Ha Ha - I love crashing male dominated discussions! I have a selfish curiosity - what makes so many women unattractive to you Nathan? and how about you other guys on here? Call it constructive criticism if you like. Don't beat around the bush. Don't worry about hurting my feelings. (If you do, I'll just leave and never come back!! - JUST KIDDING ) Looks is way down on my list of concerns right now but since you've piqued my curiosity, I just had to ask.

[randomperson]

An interesting thing I have found the 'competition' IMO from what I have seen is more than with just super beautiful people at my age.

Overall to me it seems very difficult for men to find love. Too many things in the way.

1.We have to guess if the women is open for dating.

2.We have to guess if they would be interested in us.

3.We have to figure out how to approach it in a conversation.

4.We have to figure out the right time, the right place, right activity, right things to talk about if a woman does say yes.

Look at all that is on the line for a guy when they do this. Emotions, sense of self worth, possibly the friendship.

I'm just saying it is very tough especially when you are not naturally gifted at these things or have a hard time reading visual clues if someone is interested.

[malign]

Flip it over, Rand: if you put all of that on the line with every conversation, then you're definitely going to be doing more work.

If, on the other hand, you talk to people as "people" first, rather than "prospective dates", it's all moot. Just one people talking to another people.

Then, if something good happens, you can think about next steps.

[randomperson]

Problem for me even if I know someone for awhile I find the same situation to be true. At some point even if you are good friends you gotta go through those steps. But maybe this is false thinking on my part.

I would love to hear more of your thoughts on this Malign.

You might give me a new perspective that could change my enitre way of looking at this!