perspective

[mts]

I don't know, I worry my views will just depress people further.

[Resolute]

I don't know, I worry my views will just depress people further.

i sincerely doubt that... so give it a shot.

[IrmaJean]

1- i don't like hope and/or possibility. i don't wanna sound rude or anything, it's just that i don't like workarounds; it's either real solutions or nothing. i see a paraplegic person wanting to commit suicide, and i completely get it (ever since i was young, so it's not something that developed recently), but if i see one who wants to live, i can't comprehend it.

I don't think that life is always as simple or as black and white as finding solutions. I understand what you mean and maybe there are times when there are real solutions, but there are complexities and bumps along the path, things may happen that one doesn't expect. I like hope and possibility because it gives me the space to move from where I am. I feel that "all or nothing" may be limiting. I'm listening and I respect your views, just offering my thoughts.

[mts]

1- i don't like hope and/or possibility. i don't wanna sound rude or anything, it's just that i don't like workarounds; it's either real solutions or nothing. i see a paraplegic person wanting to commit suicide, and i completely get it (ever since i was young, so it's not something that developed recently), but if i see one who wants to live, i can't comprehend it.

3- well first of all, it's not just about women liking older men etc., i can't tolerate being old without experiencing youth first. and that ship has clearly sailed... 4- secondly, i'm not interested in someone who "makes me feel good about myself", as that would just be an ingenuine feeling. i wanna truly have something to feel good about. and last but not least, one woman, and two women won't do anything. my ego is dead, and the only thing that would resurrect it, is being a heartthrob [meaning women's hearts (and other parts ) throbbing for me. i would not feel like a real man otherwise], which we all know very well, ain't happenin'.

1- A paraplegic as the result of an injury mid-life? What about one who was born that way; could you comprehend their wanting to live?

3- I'm not saying there is anything wrong with lust, but would you say this (wanting lots of girls to boost your ego) is an obsession? I think obsession is an illusion, pathological, useless if it doesn't serve you, and something I think you can let go of. It's not easy because you feel like you're losing something, and that nothing will fill it's place, that's not true, though.

4- I mean that if she were to fall in love with you, then she would also love your body, and you might start to feel differently about it yourself, since I believe that the affection and love shared between two people can be very powerful; more than someones own self hatred. If someone loved your body, wouldn't the fact of her loving it give it true worth?

Just my opinions, but hopefully I'm not making things worse with assumptions and getting confused. I apparently/supposedly have body dysmorphic disorder myself btw, so perhaps this is all incredibly hypocritical I don't know...

I think I'm a bit confused with this numbers thing as to renumbering.

P.S, wishing you well as always, res.

[Resolute]

1- A paraplegic as the result of an injury mid-life? What about one who was born that way; could you comprehend their wanting to live?

3- a- I'm not saying there is anything wrong with lust, but would you say this (wanting lots of girls to boost your ego) is an obsession? b- I think obsession is an illusion, pathological, useless if it doesn't serve you, and something I think you can let go of. c- It's not easy because you feel like you're losing something, and that nothing will fill it's place, that's not true, though.

4- a- I mean that if she were to fall in love with you, then she would also love your body, and you might start to feel differently about it yourself, since I believe that the affection and love shared between two people can be very powerful; more than someones own self hatred. b- If someone loved your body, wouldn't the fact of her loving it give it true worth?

5- Just my opinions, but hopefully I'm not making things worse with assumptions and getting confused. I apparently/supposedly have body dysmorphic disorder myself btw, so perhaps this is all incredibly hypocritical I don't know...

6- I think I'm a bit confused with this numbers thing as to renumbering.

7- P.S, wishing you well as always, res.

1- no, i can't comprehend a born cripple wanting to live either, nor do i see the difference.

3-

a- to be honest, it very well might be... but i don't think that changes anything, because even if it is in fact an 'obsession', it still will never go away, so i would always be paralyzed by it, and that's just needless suffering.

b- i don't know if i agree that it's an illusion etc.,but even if it was, that still doesn't change the fact that i believe it would always be there (at least for a few more decades), which means i don't think i can ever let go of it.

c- the part i underlined is a very accurate description of how i feel actually; indeed, nothing can fill its place. and i do believe it to be true.

4-

a- maybe for some people, but not me. besides, why would any woman in her right mind love an ugly body and prefer it to an attractive one? and please don't say "she'd love it because it's a part of you blah blah. because the real question is: given the option, would she prefer i had a sexy masculine body, or the disgusting pile of crap i currently have? i think the answer is very obvious if she wasn't mentally retarded. and trust me mts, the 'woman of my dreams' does not exist in this godforsaken place, not that it matters anyway, as it wouldn't fix anything even she she did exist.

b- not at all. as i've mentioned, one or two women being attracted to me means nothing, because what makes something meaningfully attractive, is for the majority to be attracted to it, which clearly isn't the case in our scenario.

5- you're not making anything worse; it's actually not a bad discussion.

6- ya, the numbering/renumbering is becoming a bit confusing, lol.

7- thank you, and likewise, my friend.

[Guest Klingsor]

1- no, i can't comprehend a born cripple wanting to live either, nor do i see the difference.

I'm glad someone else thinks this. I have never been able to comprehend this either. And also crippled people who watch sports and sometimes have these star athletes come and visit them like an act of dispensation. It just turns my stomach. I'm not even crippled (technically speaking) and I practice total avoidance.

[Resolute]

I'm glad someone else thinks this. I have never been able to comprehend this either. And also crippled people who watch sports and sometimes have these star athletes come and visit them like an act of dispensation. It just turns my stomach. I'm not even crippled (technically speaking) and I practice total avoidance.

ya, what's that about?

[Resolute]

I don't think that life is always as simple or as black and white as finding solutions. I understand what you mean and maybe there are times when there are real solutions, but there are complexities and bumps along the path, things may happen that one doesn't expect. I like hope and possibility because it gives me the space to move from where I am. I feel that "all or nothing" may be limiting. I'm listening and I respect your views, just offering my thoughts.

i'm just at a point where things like 'hope', 'possibilities', 'bumps', 'gray', 'growing', 'learning', etc. etc., don't cut it anymore. i need guarantees, straightforward clear-cut things only, to be able to tolerate this place; otherwise, i really don't have anything left in me to keep 'trying' and pushing, and basically wasting my time, and adding to my misery.

[mts]

1- no, i can't comprehend a born cripple wanting to live either, nor do i see the difference.

3-

a- to be honest, it very well might be... but i don't think that changes anything, because even if it is in fact an 'obsession', it still will never go away, so i would always be paralyzed by it, and that's just needless suffering.

b- i don't know if i agree that it's an illusion etc.,but even if it was, that still doesn't change the fact that i believe it would always be there (at least for a few more decades), which means i don't think i can ever let go of it.

c- the part i underlined is a very accurate description of how i feel actually; indeed, nothing can fill its place. and i do believe it to be true.

4-

a- maybe for some people, but not me. besides, why would any woman in her right mind love an ugly body and prefer it to an attractive one? and please don't say "she'd love it because it's a part of you blah blah. because the real question is: given the option, would she prefer i had a sexy masculine body, or the disgusting pile of crap i currently have? i think the answer is very obvious if she wasn't mentally retarded. and trust me mts, the 'woman of my dreams' does not exist in this godforsaken place, not that it matters anyway, as it wouldn't fix anything even she she did exist.

b- not at all. as i've mentioned, one or two women being attracted to me means nothing, because what makes something truly attractive, is for the majority to be attracted to it, which clearly isn't the case in our scenario.

1- Sometimes I think that this culture teaches us to despise our own company, to think we need constant praise or admiration, or sex, or this item or that, etc, when really I think our needs are less.

3- It seems to me that obsession is usually unhealthy, and I think with mental health there is usually a way to feel better (except in some extreme cases of madness, etc).

4-

a- There is always that risk; doesn't personality and connection come into play as well, though, and make someone view the other with more fondness? Aristole said reality looks different under different emotions, and isn't beauty in the eye of the beholder?

b- Doesn't one person being intensely attracted (or for a long period of time) to something also make it attractive?

You don't have to respond to any of this, I mean well though, Take care of yourself man.

[Resolute]

1- Sometimes I think that this culture teaches us to despise our own company, to think we need constant praise or admiration, or sex, or this item or that, etc, when really I think our needs are less.

3- It seems to me that obsession is usually unhealthy, and I think with mental health there is usually a way to feel better (except in some extreme cases of madness, etc).

4-

a- There is always that risk; doesn't personality and connection come into play as well, though, and make someone view the other with more fondness? Aristole said reality looks different under different emotions, and isn't beauty in the eye of the beholder?

b- Doesn't one person being intensely attracted (or for a long period of time) to something also make it attractive?

5- You don't have to respond to any of this, I mean well though, Take care of yourself man.

1- like i mentioned before (to malign), we can't separate reality from society, they're interwoven. so societal pressure is a legitimate concern, and one can't simply ignore it and hope it goes away. in addition to all of that, i do actually have many other problems and unmet needs.

4-

a- mts, you and i both know that in the real world there is no such thing as a constant state of love, fondness, adoration, admiration, etc.. even in the best scenarios it fluctuates, which means her perception of my artificial beauty (beauty in the eyes of the beholder etc.) would also fluctuate, and that would have unacceptable implications, which i can't discuss here.

b- i actually edited one word in post # 55; i changed the world 'truly' to 'meaningfully', as i realized my discrepancy/inaccuracy, since i don't consider the views of the majority to be necessarily valid or true, or to have more actual value etc.. anyway, to answer your question, the answer is no, except for that person. so her opinion won't really matter to me, because almost all other women on earth would disagree with her, which clearly makes me worthless (physically) to all of those women.

5- you know i can't help but respond mts. i know you mean well; no doubt about it. and you take care too.

p.s., what else you got, lol?

[mts]

p.s., what else you got, lol?

I don't know, I think my brain needs to reboot. Just quickly though, I agree with 1, have more thoughts on this perhaps, and agree with 4a (unacceptable?).

[mts]

1- like i mentioned before (to malign), we can't separate reality from society, they're interwoven. so societal pressure is a legitimate concern, and one can't simply ignore it and hope it goes away. in addition to all that, i do actually have many other problems and unmet needs.

4-

a- mts, you and i both know that in the real world there is no such thing as a constant state of love, fondness, adoration, admiration, etc.. even in the best scenarios it fluctuates, which means her perception of my artificial beauty (beauty in the eyes of the beholder etc.) would also fluctuate, and that would have unacceptable implications, which i can't discuss here.

b- i actually edited one word in post # 55; i changed the world 'truly' to 'meaningfully', as i realized my discrepancy/inaccuracy, since i don't consider the views of the majority to be necessarily valid or true, or to have more actual value etc.. anyway, to answer your question, the answer is no, except for that person. so her opinion won't really matter to me, because almost all other women on earth would disagree with her, which clearly makes me worthless (physically) to all of those women.

1- I think we can reflect on and change our values and behaviour/reactions, though. I imagine you might say "up to a point", if so can you elaborate? For instance, you mentioned "all or nothing" thinking being one mentality, and "anything better than nothing" as another, and that's it's a matter of preferences, priorities, beliefs, values; but to change our mentality can't we examine the last three (priorities, beliefs, values) and change them?

4

a- I'm going further than you'd like, perhaps, but I guess you mean the implications that they might cheat on you; they might not though, I mean if they became really attached to you, then maybe the fluctuation wouldn't be so much/significant? (I'm not ignoring what you've repeatedly mentioned about needing more than one woman, but just for arguments sake.)

c- For the record, I don't think wanting to sleep with lots of women is shallow, or if it is who cares; I'm not saying it's a bad thing, but if it's causing you such grief then maybe it's worth looking further and more deeply into the reasons for this. I've got more to say I think but I'll take some more time to think about it.

[Resolute]

i'm gonna renumber to simplify:

1- I think we can reflect on and change our values and behaviour/reactions, though. I imagine you might say "up to a point", if so can you elaborate? 2- For instance, you mentioned "all or nothing" thinking being one mentality, and "anything better than nothing" as another, and that's it's a matter of preferences, priorities, beliefs, values; but to change our mentality can't we examine the last three (priorities, beliefs, values) and change them?

3- I'm going further than you'd like, perhaps, but I guess you mean the implications that they might cheat on you; they might not though, I mean if they became really attached to you, then maybe the fluctuation wouldn't be so much/significant? 4- (I'm not ignoring what you've repeatedly mentioned about needing more than one woman, but just for arguments sake.)

5- For the record, I don't think wanting to sleep with lots of women is shallow, or if it is who cares; I'm not saying it's a bad thing, but if it's causing you such grief then maybe it's worth looking further and more deeply into the reasons for this. I've got more to say I think but I'll take some more time to think about it.

1- i don't know if i can speak for others, but when it comes to me, i have several 'levels' of values. top-level values can probably never change under any circumstances. mid-level values might change if something really snaps, i.e under very special circumstances. low-level values might be changeable with much work and perseverance. so even the last category (which is theoretically changeable) has two main problems: requires too much work, time, energy, and effort, and even in the event of succeeding, still won't make much difference since it's the least important category.

behaviors and reactions depend on values and other mostly uncontrollable factors -like genes, etc.-, so not much choice there either. yes, one could force himself to react a certain way in certain instances, but that is guaranteed to fail miserably at some point, because one can't go through his entire life forcing himself, without serious repercussions in the long run.

2- pretty much the same applies to beliefs and priorities as values, so refer back to # 1.

3- i wasn't talking about infidelity. there are many ramifications that i can't really get into (and they don't matter to most people anyway, or they simply can't comprehend them). and even if the fluctuations are minor, the risks are still too great for someone who's a perfectionist, like me.

4- i'm very grateful for that.

5- the problem with examination mts, is that even if i was able to get to the roots of all my problems, the chances of there existing a real solution or cure that is accessible to me, are microscopic at best.

[IrmaJean]

It's probably cliche, and maybe it doesn't help, but sometimes things can happen that really bring to mind how quickly things can change and just how precious life truly is. It may not be something we think about very much until we are faced with something that forces us to look and realize. That is the space I am in right now and what I've been feeling recently. I understand that you don't feel the same right now. I'm sorry that things feel so dark and hopeless. :( There are people out there who care.

[malign]

"p.s., what else you got, lol? "

Resolute, one thing that strikes me about this conversation, and the reason I dropped out of it earlier, is that ostensibly you're asking us to give you reasons to live, which is of dubious value anyway, while in the mean time you're still alive. That means that you have reasons of your own not to be dead already, and personally, I would rather you have this discussion between that part and the part we've been hearing from, so far.

Is that worth trying?

[Resolute]

thanks beth.

@ malign, you've misinterpreted my intentions. i don't need or want anyone to give me any reason(s) to live. as to why i'm still alive, is that you of all people should know (being so well read and all) that the instinctive (and very unwelcome) will to live is a force to be reckoned with; and knowing that, i knew i needed to give myself enough time to get the things i need to do it successfully {i'm sure you also know suicide isn't as easy as some people think. there are over 20 million suicide attempts annually, and over a million of them are successful (and these are just the officially reported ones), and i certainly don't intend to be in the "attempted" category.}, and to prepare myself mentally and psychologically so i can go through with it without any hesitation. either way malign, you need not worry, i won't be bothering you much longer (i assure you), and as soon as my money runs out (this month), i'm outta here.

p.s., if anyone got the wrong idea that i was asking for help, or reasons to stay, i'm sorry, that certainly wasn't my intention, and i thought i made that clear. and as to my "what else you got?" comment, that was just a joke, which i thought the context and emoticon demonstrated.

i basically come here to kill time, before i kill myself.

[m.allen]

This is sad news res.

If you have nothing to lose though then why don't you try something drastic to see if that changes your perspective? Everyone will die one day anyway, why rush it when there is much out there you haven't yet experienced. Our experiences are little blips in a massive and almost-limitless world. Why not move somewhere near or far, change careers drastically, join a volunteer organization in a foreign country, etc.

Now could be the best time in your life now that you have nothing to lose. I realize the place you're in right now definitely doesn't make it seem that way and I imagine it feels like it's hard to see good in anything when you've become so used to seeing the bad. But you only have things to gain by searching drastically for meaning at this point, why not give yourself that opportunity?

Also, I could be totally wrong about this or going way over the line to say it (and I apologize in advance if I am!), but I do feel like you aren't being very open to anything but the notions you've already decided to settle on. I think you'll undoubtedly be able to dismantle any argument, even your own, but almost any point can be countered with another, it doesn't mean that the whole original point is moot though.

Anyway, all the best res! I'm hoping you at least give yourself the opportunity to discover if you're truly wrong through some possible drastic life changes before you decide to commit suicide.

I do believe you can find meaning in this life.

[Guest Klingsor]

I'm sorry, resolute. I truly hope nothing I've said or written has contributed to your feeling worse. I'm really working on my negativity. I wish there was something worthwhile I could say or do. I don't have any answers other than to tell you that the forum would not be the same without you. It's disappointing for me when I don't see your name on the active users list; you also do make everyone feel welcome like mts said and keep an active presence here for new members when malign and IrmaJean are busy. You obviously care about people, and I'm sure others care about you. But I know how this thinking works too, only too well, and you'll convince yourself that I'm only saying this to be nice or that what I'm saying doesn't matter. I understand probably more than anyone else where you're coming from. Nobody wants you to go.

[Resolute]

@ m.allen, thank you again for your concern, i truly am grateful; but sometimes, it just seems like you're not even trying, lol. i mean do you honestly believe that i haven't tried my best -and done everything in my power that i can think of- in the course of my 32 years on this godforsaken planet to change anything in my shitty life!!!!? my life is like quicksand, the more i try to fix things, and the more i pray, the worse things get. and believe me my friend, after a couple decades of that even a rock would become bitter and hopeless. it would be of the utmost stupidity of me to think for even a millisecond that there's even a nano-chance that my life would not continue to worsen; and needless to say, i really don't need that shit.

[Resolute]

I'm sorry, resolute. I truly hope nothing I've said or written has contributed to your feeling worse. I'm really working on my negativity. I wish there was something worthwhile I could say or do. I don't have any answers other than to tell you that the forum would not be the same without you. It's disappointing for me when I don't see your name on the active users list; you also do make everyone feel welcome like mts said and keep an active presence here for new members when malign and IrmaJean are busy. You obviously care about people, and I'm sure others care about you. But I know how this thinking works too, only too well, and you'll convince yourself that I'm only saying this to be nice or that what I'm saying doesn't matter. I understand probably more than anyone else where you're coming from. Nobody wants you to go.

klingsor, i'm very touched, and moved. thank you my friend. i don't know if my reaction to your post should be happiness or sadness.

i don't know where you got the idea that i'm feeling worse.

anyway, now i feel bad for making you feel bad... i'm sorry man, i don't know what to say.

p.s, how can you not see me on the active users list, considering that i'm on here so darn often, lol!?

[m.allen]

haha yes, i am trying..

I'm trying to put ideas out there that maybe you haven't thought of yet, it's impossible for anyone to try everything or have thought of everything already. though i'm aware there's only so much a person can try to do. I'm just worried you'll cut your life short when there's actually something you could have done differently. But if you're not keen on me posting here anymore, I would respect that for sure. As you said before, "i don't need or want anyone to give me any reason(s) to live" and if you feel like I'm giving unsolicited advice then i'll shut my dumb mouth.

anyway, the point i was getting at before is that if resolutions and trying to change your perspective aren't working without changing your environment, then maybe that needs to change too? maybe you have tried drastic things already, i'm not sure. but i'd be interested to hear what you have attempted if you were willing to share that.

you're only 32. this is just one suggestion, but what about doing an online TEFL course and moving to Argentina to teach English? living near a beach.. a new culture.. might not seem like much of an idea until you get there and see what it's like. and even then, if it didn't work then it is what it is and you're not really any worse off than you are now.

i hope it's not insensitive for me to post suggestions like that and my apologies if it is. and i hope it's not coming across that i think your problems are simple with a quick fix by moving somewhere, i just feel like there's things you could do to step in the right direction that maybe you haven't tried yet.

either way, i hope you can go easy on yourself in the meantime. i'm not alone in thinking you've made a positive difference in people's lives just on this forum and i hope you can let yourself find some happiness.

[Resolute]

hi m, hope you're doing well. you're more than welcome to post here (as is everyone else), and speak your mind. the whole reason for creating this thread is exchanging thoughts, views, and ideas

i'm thankful that you and others think that i've had a positive presence here; that means a lot.

there are many things i don't wish to share, but let me share a few things:

1- i don't have enough money to travel to another city, let alone another country.

2- i've tried changing environments -among other things- and have lived in more than one country. unfortunately, god will not leave me alone no matter where i go.

3- i've never mentioned where i live, but i'm not a citizen of the country in which i live, and my temporary residence permit expired over three years ago, my passport expired over a year and a half ago, and due to many factors, including health and financial problems, i wasn't able to renew either of them. and now that i've been here illegally for so long, it's even more difficult to do anything about it; not that i have the energy or motivation to even want to do anything, nor would it make any difference if i was able to fix it anyway. needless to say, this makes leaving the country 'legally' also difficult; again, not that i have any motivation to do so anyway.

4- living in argentina -or anywhere else in the world- would not solve any of my main problems, namely feeling like a man (which would only happen if many women, constantly showed interest in me physically), and my physical health. i also think i've repeatedly mentioned how ambitious i am, so 'teaching' isn't exactly my dream.

anyway, i know you wouldn't say anything if you didn't care, and for that, i thank you m. take care of yourself.

[m.allen]

Hm, the expired permit puts you in a tough spot for sure for traveling then, sorry to hear that.

What kind of career do you want for yourself? What would reasonably satisfy your ambition?

And, why do you think it is that you desire specifically physical attraction from women? There's lots of reasons to be attracted to someone, and I think it's more common for women to be attracted to other attributes of a man than just his looks, whereas men generally tend to put more weight on looks in attraction to someone. I feel like women value security more than men, which sometimes means financial security. I think this is the reason you often see the cliche of a young beautiful woman with an older rich guy. It's a shallow demonstration of what each sex is generally looking for. You seem resistant to the idea of a woman liking you for any other reason except appearance, which I find confusing. Obviously that's a factor, but not 100% of it. I think in a lot of cases as long as someone is a little attractive then the personality or other aspects can make up for the rest, for men and women. Do you think this desire to be sought after by women is born out of self-esteem issues or just a sexual desire or something else?

If this is all getting too personal, I apologize. I'm just trying to figure out where your heads at, so to speak.

I'll be away this next week for work, hope you are well in the meantime res. I'm seriously pulling for you here man. All the best!

[Resolute]

what would satisfy my ambition? you just opened a can of worms my friend . being a businessman (real estate tycoon type of thing), with private jet etc., you know, the works.

although i've explained the physical attraction thing a few times, i'll explain it again since i don't have anything better to do. i've addressed the hot young women being with rich old men scenario by saying that the same hot young women would cheat on the rich old guy in a heartbeat with a young stud muffin. the reason you're confused is because you keep missing my central point, which is that i'm not talking about an actual relationship, marriage, so called "love" etc., and what i'm referring to is basically more casual stuff. another thing you mentioned is "I think in a lot of cases as long as someone is a little attractive then the personality or other aspects can make up for the rest, for men and women." well, what if someone isn't attractive at all, like me? and to answer your question, yes, it is a self-esteem issue, a self/body image issue, feeling like a man (masculine, virile, etc.) issue. to put the matter to rest i will give an example that would hopefully clarify the issue for most people; how would a woman feel if no man ever looked at her, showed interest, hit on her, flirted with her, or asked her out, etc. etc.? all while she sees men drooling over gorgeous women, and willing to do anything to get their attention or sleep with them, and so on. wouldn't she feel like less of a woman? less feminine? worthless? useless? etc. etc.. i'm sorry, i don't intend to upset anyone, but i'm sure there are women who feel like that, and men as well, me for one. a great looking guy with a pea brain would have women all over him, while i'm like a fucking plant (excuse my french) in the corner or something; no woman acknowledges me. that is injustice of massive proportions, and one that i simply can't live with any longer. there is much injustice in the world, and i have a serious problem with injustice, but i can try to ignore most things (not easily, but i can work out coping mechanisms/techniques); but when it comes to this matter, i just can't ignore it. it eats me up inside, i think about it over 99% of the time when i'm awake, and i'm sure it's part of what ruins my sleep as well.

another thing is that i'm not rich, and never will be (specially before i'm completely over the hill, at which point it wouldn't matter anyway), so the wealth being important/attractive in men is also out. add to that my lack of health, and you've got yourself something that literally only a miracle can remedy. and i know you won't tell me to stay around in absolute pain and misery, and wait for a miracle.

thanks m, all the best to you too.

[Guest Klingsor]

.