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Say Again

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Say Again last won the day on October 29 2016

Say Again had the most liked content!

About Say Again

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  1. Say Again

    My husband died

    Thank you SweetSue, I can't even re-read what I wrote - I was already a glass of wine in when I started that nonsense. I am sorry for your loss too. I know it is a confusing one for you - I think I get that and I hope you reach out and get all the support you need.
  2. Say Again

    My husband died

    33 days ago my husband died and yet it still at times hits me as just being absolutely impossible. 32 years together and this is where it ends - regardless of the facts as he and I saw them - I guess that means death trumps all. There is this bizarre sub thinking process that existed always in my head - that "things will work out" type of thought. He certainly could not vanish at this point of his life because he had tons of unfinished business - especially in the relationship area and so we had to have that all worked out before he would ever face death or that would mean that "everything does not always work out" and who walks around with that thought? And I am having to let go with this after he died bizarre sub thinking process that is searching for details of his last moments/hours ~ thoughts/movements as if I can somehow change the outcome if I find the right information. No - he is dead and it does not matter how he always made things work out in the end, how he always came through because he is dead and his ashes are in that box over there and no matter how sick that makes me feel when I really let it sink in - he still does not come back and make it better - he still is gone. And ya know - I can really get so angry because how is anyone suppose to be able to accept that he is in a box over there and just move on and damn it that is what I am doing most of the time - just moving on - I shower and talk and do all of those things and then it hits me like it is right now and I want to punch a hole through a wall - which I would imagine is not a good idea but I am so angry because this is stupid - this whole system of life and death and I wish I had a way to reject it and protest it and I do know how stupid that sounds. I have spent much of my recent life trying not to be mindful that people I love can just vanish at any moment because it has caused me to make too many distorted and fear based decisions in my past. I thought I was being so strong to keep out of that state of mind. How f-ing ignorant though can one be that I end the last moments in this life that I had with my husband angry at him ~ never doubting that he would be there to ultimately fix things. I did the very thing my father did with his last moments with my Mom - her death being what kept me in such fear of death and what I finally thought I worked to gain control over. Unbelievable! Life is cruel because when a person you love dies - the anger can vanish with them and without the anger - nothing you felt towards them feels the same and so your last words to them can make very little sense - seem so selfish and out of control - at least in the emotional sense. My husband was an alcoholic and our life had become so complicated that we were all drowning in his addictions but I never really believed it could end here. The minute I had his body there before me - without the anger I so counted on - he became the love of my life again and all I wanted to do was to touch him, to kiss his precious forehead and to tell him how much I loved him. Who was I NOW? I certainly was not that person I had been just days - no - I just pulled up a calender to remind myself of the unthinkable - not days before but just the day before - that felt so abandoned and so unloved by this man. My ignorance has no end, prevents all answers from reaching my understanding and makes me a degree of tired that life cannot seem to reach ~ but all that means is that I so desperately want to not be here/be alive but I NEVER EVER WOULD DO ANYTHING TO END MY LIFE BECAUSE I COULD NOT CAUSE THAT LEVEL OF EMOTIONAL PAIN TO THOSE I LOVE and so no one EVER has to actually rescue me from self induced harm period - never ever. It is emotional pain that has me trapped because no matter how much it hurts I cannot just lay down and quit damn it and that makes me feel almost as if I am held down - trapped without a way out of this terror and I have a hard time catching my breath. Why terror? I do not know why I am so afraid. I might not make any sense at all. I will never make this post make sense
  3. Wow ~ unbelievable Luna, My Step-son scared the daylights out of me with his behavior this last weekend. I so easily could have been planning 3 funerals and some other family could have been doing the same for their loved ones because of him. His Mother is doing all she can to get here within the next few days and will stay with him for a short while. I have been reading everything I can and it seems he shows signs of both depression and (hypo)mania. I have asked his Mom to start collecting data for me in regards to his behavior, moods, sleeping patterns ~ everything. I was just sitting down at my computer to make a chart of some type because she said she needs it all mapped out for her in regards to what to pay attention to. As typical ~ because it was something I was overwhelmed with doing ~ I distracted from it (just for a second “a quick peek” I told myself) and I went on this site. Thank you, Thank you, Thank you! You have no idea how much these chart options will help me. I also find your example descriptions helpful because I have noticed some very specific behaviors to him that indicate he has shifted into a different state. I think it will help her if I write those out so she can recognize the signs. It is just so bizarre to find this right here at the exact moment I needed it.
  4. This is interesting to me sadgreeneyes because my daughter (who is now 33) reacts in anger when a people “stare” at her (she is not as reactive with men staring). When she is fed up she will say to me, “is there something wrong with me (as she looks down at her clothes for some major flaw) because people will NOT STOP staring” and she is really upset. She does not stand out in style or behavior – always well groomed, wears make up and all that but nothing provocative in dress or that type of thing. I see her most every day and yet sometimes when she walks into view I am just stunned by her beauty. As far as women looking at you and you assuming that as evidence it is not about your being attractive and that it must be something else ~ not so. I watch women double take my daughter every single time we are out together. I have watched women come up to her and apologize for staring and follow with some compliment to her. Yet still her first reaction is to think people have some other negative motive. I wonder if the negative expression you see on the other persons face is just their defensive counter reaction to what they might have seen on your face when you caught them looking. I would imagine they see anger cross my daughter’s face and maybe you have a similar defensive expression. I also wonder if a woman that perceives you as more attractive does in fact have a negative expression on her face because she is feeling negative about herself in comparison. Also, imagine a man and woman walking through a store at the moment she catches sight of you. If she feels insecure and angry that he is going to admire you ~ you might see that anger (at him) in her expression. It is a different world out there for pretty women. You cannot for example eat in a restaurant, walk in a store without someone watching and I can see where that can make someone feel somewhat self conscious. Most people can move in and out of places without feeling eyes on them and there is a real comfort in that. So it might just be a matter of adjusting to it.
  5. Say Again


    Look for me Mary ~ I am right there standing next to finding my way.
  6. Say Again


    Notmary, I can offer you some of what I have learned about fear. I personally now understand that so many belief systems were set in place when I was three and my Mom died. I can logically (finally) see that the distrust formed from that moment DOES NOT have to have a specific place to land ~ no actions of another are always necessary to trigger it ~ it was the fear of loss. Notmary ~ if someone would have taken my Dad away after my Mom died (as you were taken from your Mom after losing your Dad) I cannot even begin to imagine the devastating impact that would have had on my mental well being. As it was, the rituals I created to keep those I dared to love alive were painful and exhausting – things that intellectually I knew had no impact on if someone lived or died ~ yet it was that fear of losing them that preventing me from even considering stopping. I beat myself up for this until only a few years ago. Your fears might be as unnamed as mine were to me but the fact is ~ the intensity of it is still very real. So in hindsight from that experience I feel it is BETTER to respect a fear (instead of faulting yourself for having it because it seems so illogical) because from THAT position you are better able to gain insight as to the source of it and the purpose it was created to serve. I am crushed from the little you have described about your childhood history. It is painful to consider you as a child having to negotiate your way through the day in and day out of that ~ and the impact that must have on your life now as an adult. The thought that after all of that you ended up in the hands of someone that abused you is overwhelming. There is the flip side of that Notmary that speaks to what you posted earlier about this person that abused you taking your spirit. Your very life is to me such a profound tribute to the human spirit and with all due respect ~ I do not trust your perspective on that at this moment and wholly trust mine. I want with all of my heart for you to be able to borrow my trust in this. Life experience has put you in a battle and that spirit is in fact what has kept you standing and fighting the entire time. I can relate to the second guessing you do about the posts you put on here. Honestly Notmary, I spend so much time on most every post I write on here that most would find it unbelievable ~ I second guess myself to death. I feel shame when I include anything about my past and so often feel that I am driving people bonkers with my thoughts. I can assure you though that I personally am disappointed when you have not posted for a while. I do hope you keep posting.
  7. Say Again


    David O, I liked the "growth comes from reaching towards the light" description you give. I am having trouble understanding something you wrote. Unless someone is not in actual pain (directly from the shame) but instead is coming to you because society demands they change behavior or else (for example ~ maybe an addict, or a spouse who has drawn the line and demands some show of desire to change from your client) ~ why else would someone that seeks help hold back information unless it is due to shame, fear of rejection and/or inability to trust? An issue (of great importance) is presented to you in the very fact that they are not open with you. So why would that issue be reason for the client to be turned away? What about the often most powerful way we impact another human being ~ in the planting of seed? What would warrant turning those opportunities away? Is my lack of knowledge with this blinding me to another side of it?
  8. Say Again


    Allen, Your response hits home with me personally and on behalf of Notmary because I feel it deeply from the standpoint of being a client in this situation (and think Notmary is in a similar situation). What David O and IrmaJean speak of makes complete sense BUT sometimes (as you seem to be saying in your post) the barriers that are keeping someone from being open NEED TO BE the main issue discussed in therapy before one can even get to the issues being withheld. I personally believe that the therapist should operate on assumption with this area and consistently speak to therapist/client trust. I wish the point was driven home to the client as a normal part of every session. To explain to and remind the client often that it would be beneficial to both therapist and client for them to find the most comfortable way (journals etc…) to bring any doubts / deep shameful issues / lack of comfort into the sessions in my mind is the only (or most time saving) way to break these barriers. I believe if a client is left unable to bring out the serious issues (from discomfort) for too long ~ their self-esteem starts to suffer from the therapy experience and other factors start to offer a reasonable way out ~ money, time, lack of progress etc…
  9. Say Again


    I would like to offer a suggestion Notmary. It seems you have found some level of comfort in expressing the thoughts and pain with those of us on this board ~ you must know how much we care about you. It sounds too frightening for you to go deeper into some of the areas that are causing you so much pain and it might be important you only do such work with your therapist at your side. Would it be possible for you to print out and give your therapist some of the posts from this site that would give description of what you are experiencing? This is a bad idea if it would change the way you feel about writing on here. It would mean that the therapist could easily find these posts. So I guess it would depend on your relationship with the therapist and on if you feel it would benefit you and your therapist by giving more insight into your pain. I think of you often and do hope that you keep posting. Say Again
  10. Say Again


    Also this part Notmary, if you care to give more detail to these thoughts. Just skip over my posts if you are not up to it ~ I am not going to take it to mean anything negative if you do. Say Again
  11. Say Again


    Hi Notmary, I too have been thinking about you and it is good to find you back on here with us. Can you share a little about what this was like for you (if you care to): Say Again
  12. I know Symora, you make me laugh. I love going round and round with this type of topic. I have to share with you that this was more than an interesting discussion for me. Your post questioning where accountability fits in really hit the nail on the head for me personally. In order to write a response to you I had to consider it from my own experiences as it relates to the 1, 2, 3 concept. That forced me to figure out something that I have been baffled about for most of my life in my relationships (my first paragraph in post # 7 was news to me). I think people have been trying to tell me this for a long time and I finally get it ~ “Holding people accountable seems a must for a relationship to stay healthy”. It is non negotiable that I take the steps I have to take to learn how to be assertive. I always thought it was just hurting me but can now so clearly see it is hurting my relationships, which for some reason gives me an urgency to face and resolve it.
  13. Thank you Jetliner, I love that story you write about (the situation on the subway) and it is from the book, The 7 habits of highly effective people. The man on the subway is the author, Stephen Covey. I have the strongest feeling that you would find this book absolutely fascinating. The story about the two sons going in opposite directions as response to the same childhood experiences is such a great example of how subjective our view of the world really is. It goes to prove that it is not the experience as much as it is the meaning we give to it that actually has the true impact on our lives. I have a personal example of why I might see it with a different twist compared to how you do. My sister is just few years older than I am. She recalls the times in her childhood when friends would ask her why she lived with her Grandfather. It embarrassed her to have to explain that he was actually her Father. There was a lot about him that she found challenging to deal with and their relationship was tough. He had a very hot temper and a very negative view of women. His drinking created another set of problems that she hated. As she got into her teen years she rarely brought friends to her house because of him. I on the other hand grew up with a Father I was proud of and I could not wait for my friends to meet him. He was handsome, smart, strong, incredible funny and fun, and he loved me more than anything else in this world. Same house, same Father and although what we both recall as our experiences are based in part from reality ~ we both were incapable during those years of seeing the other part of that reality. We had no choice in the meaning we gave those experiences because we were children. She was unable to see in him what I did and make the connection with him that would have resulted in her feeling so very loved. I was unable to see in him what she did and make the connection with what is inappropriate to help me set boundaries in my other relationships. I cannot for the life of me decide who faired better. So in looking at the two sons ~ I have to wonder if this statement you write is completely accurate “the one used it as an excuse to become his dad while the other saw it as motivation to NOT become like him”. The way I see it is they had no choice in what they were able to see or not see or in the meaning they each gave the experiences and so by the time they reached the age of choice ~ they were both actually dealing with entirely different 1, 2, 3 histories. It is not actually as if they were both launching into adulthood off of the same pad.
  14. I know what you mean and have had my own set of problems with this Symora. I complicate things when I lack the assertiveness to communicate boundaries in a relationship. Sometimes I will try to turn it off of me and will get angry at someone for not intuitively knowing where the boundaries should be. But I am not comfortable with feeling anger and want to avoid it. So I will use the 1, 2, 3 awareness to make excuses for a person’s behavior because it gives me enough of an excuse to avoid confronting and holding them accountable. I get to avoid feeling angry at them for their behavior and at myself for being so unassertive. The problem is that it never really works in the long haul. Holding people accountable seems a must for a relationship to stay healthy. I think the best use of the concept we are discussing does not involve making excuses for behavior. It is more about how the insight can help us to realize this behavior is less about us personally and more about this persons perspective of the situation ~ which comes mainly from those 1, 2, 3 experiences. It gives us a broader view in which we can operate regarding any person. It does not mean we would lower our standards of how someone should treat us. It means when they fall below those standards we are not going to take it so personally. We do not then have to deal with the pain we would feel if we did take it personally. That frees us from our own agenda of self protection and we are able to communicate with them from a completely different level. That in turn increases our ability to be a positive influence in those relationships. I have trouble remembering that when I need it most and can hardly understand what I just wrote. That is why the simple 1, 2, 3 will help remind me to broaden my view a little before I react.
  15. Symora, I might have confused you here with my strange way of looking at things. I am thinking Jetliner wrote the 4, 5, 6… 1, 2, 3 as a sum up title to the concept he pulled from the Star Wars series. I read his title and saw it as a short cut way of reminding myself to slow down and consider it when I am having trouble in a relationship. I think because they played the Star Wars series in the order they did ~ it made the impact it did on Jetliner. The opinions formed in 4, 5 and 6 of Darth Vader seemed unquestionable and set in stone ~ “evil”. It is later that you get the 1, 2 and 3 of this characters life and the unexpected happens ~ it changes that perspective. I think that is exactly as it is in real life ~ except unfortunately we do not usually consider or get to know the 1, 2 and 3 and that means that we keep those uninformed opinions for life. A zillion examples can be given where we are so quick to judge. The one we consider a jerk because he treats us with indifference might really be protecting himself from the rejection he learned is so painful in childhood. Even the woman that never sends thank you notes may not have had any experiences that prepared her for such things and is doing all she can just to keep it going day after day. It can be true with the smallest of irritants we encounter and complain about to the most serious of circumstances. So in general just keeping in mind that there is a 1, 2 and 3 that would at the least make sense of most any 4, 5 and 6 is taking a big step in helping us to have more compassion for others. I want to be that person as often as I can be. Side note: I hope someone finally put a stop to Mr. Vader!
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