I really hate my penis, not just size

[Kev]

I really need to say something or I am going to burst.  I don't have many friends, but even if i did, I couldn't say anything about how I feel.  My wife just says "It's right for me".  Well is is NOT right for me.

I bet most women that read this will either roll their eyes or laugh. They will roll their eyes because they will feel the same way about their appearance or body. But that's the catch, they can change most of their bodies or looks. But I will get into that later. 
First, I hate my penis, I really do. It's not a fad or depression. I am not a man that wants to be a woman. Basically, I hate my penis because it's ugly looking and average. The problem with "average" is that average is really small.  I don't want to discourage those that like or love their average penis, kudos to you.  My wife says that I satisfy her. I don't want "satisfied", I want WOW, Holy shit, I want "whew, that was awesome" every time we have sex. We presently have sex only once in a month and a half, possibly once a month if I am lucky. I personally think that if I had a larger penis, that she would want sex more.  I lick her vagina, we have lots of fun, but when finished, she doesn't even really talk about it.  I think it's like eating cake. If you are OK with the taste of the cake, you may not think about having it again. But if you eat some cake and you say "Holy CRAP that was good cake" you will most likely crave that cake again. And before you judge me, I believe in a huge amount of foreplay. Sometimes the foreplay would last days, usually because my wife was tired most of the week. I try all the time to make her feel sexy and loved. But I'm getting off the topic of what is really bothering me.  My wife's reaction to our sex unfortunately, whether related or not, is making me believe my feelings are correct about my pathetic penis.
There are two types of penises. Showers and growers. The showers are the the 'good looking' penises.  When flaccid, they still look good and large.  Then there is my group, growers. This is where the guys penis when flaccid, it looks small. Of course, those that are large, but are growers, they usually still look pretty good when flaccid. But generally, the flaccid state is not a good indication of what it is when hard. I am a grower but I can not stand how it looks.  It drives me crazy.  I look at it and think "what the hell is that?". Remember the song by Gilette, it was called 'short man' and she says "Hey, you have an extra belly button". That song solidified my thoughts on how I felt about my crappy penis.  My wife tries to be upbeat and says "Just get a little hard when in the change room".  I laugh it off because you can't stay partially hard in a change room.  Besides, it's not that large and even when partially hard, it still looks like crap. 
My hatred started about 20 years ago when I was gearing up to be part of a 3 some. I was young, fit and wanted to give this a try. However, after telling the couple I had a 5.5" penis, the woman said frankly but nicely "You are hot and I am sure it may be fun, but we've tried other guys that were less than 6 inches and it just didn't work out well". That was a huge eye opener for me, but what really stuck the knife in me was when I was showering in a gym and a friend of mine just happened to be showering too and said to me, point blank "How do you even please that woman of yours with that". I know he was infatuated with my girlfriend at the time and I am sure he did it to make me feel inferior, well, it worked. I felt emasculated for about a month after that. Oh, and he's not my friend anymore BTW. 
I really didn't dislike my dick right away. But over time I started hating it more and more each passing year.
I think I speak for myself and many other men that it doesn't take rocket science to see that a woman, regardless if they like sex with large penises (size queens) or not, they are fascinated by above average penises. If average was seen as average, then I think most guys that were average would be happy with what they have. Again, I am not saying ALL guys are not happy with their penises, but I am sure there are guys like me that just dislike the size, look and have never been given enough praise (for lack of a better word) to be satisfied with what they have. 
I am jealous of woman. They can complain all they want about how they look, weight, breast size, butt size etc etc. But they can get plastic surgery. Liposuction. They can get face lifts. Lip reductions. Breast implants, buttocks implants and the list goes on. Even women that are 400 lbs can enjoy some admiration.  I wouldn't dare put my penis on display, I am absolutely certain that the ridicule would not stop until I put a gun to my head.
I am not saying I want to make money or be a superstar porn actor. What I am saying is that I am unhappy with my ugly and average penis, but I CANNOT do anything with the damn thing. I've done my research and basically there is very little that can be done about it. Basically, what changes that can be done, don't really do much. Severing the ligament above the penis makes it look a bit better when flaccid, but the erection stays the same. Grafts and other painful things can give a little bit of thickness or length, but the cost to your health, sexual feeling and even sexual performance does not justify the little change in look or size. I would end up with a slightly bigger penis, but the ugliness and true under sizing and flaccid look would still be the same.
To top all this off, I had un-diagnosed Type II diabetes for about a year and now I have to deal with Erectile dysfunction. Could life get any better eh? 
I really needed to say something out loud. I hope that other men realize they are not alone. I want woman to realize that "average" is not really average to the world.  It's like saying hot water is Zero Degrees.  You KNOW that's not right.  I want people to know that sayings like "well it's not the size, but the way you use it" is like nails on a chalk board it's so annoying as hell.

[YOTH]

Your story is my story, brother. Admittedly life isn't much greener over here, but it could be a lot worse. 5.5 isn't shit when you're a grower, it can be almost invisible, and we'll never be 'orgy' or 'porn' guys, but we can put points up. We can get the job done. Keep your chin up, mate. Hopefully with your ED getting better your can the missus back into some old in and out on the regular

[Victimorthecrime]

Solid points @Kev.  Would anyone be happy w average grades? Average income?  Average performance review at work? 

And your points about the knife really not cutting both ways are well made and to add one think about this: even the least attractive women can get laid and become mothers and gain all the benefits society bestows upon such a wonder.  I mean the father may not parade her around in public but he'll do the deed.  

Now think about a guy that's short fat bald ugly and small. The only way he is having sex is w prostitutes.  And keeping that Gilette song out of his head.  

[LostBoy]

On 12/24/2017 at 12:40 AM, Kev said:

There are two types of penises. Showers and growers.

Hi @Kev, first off, I'm sorry for the pain you are going through. SPS sucks for all of us and we all have our ups and downs and right now it sounds like you're down. I've been there many times. Frankly, I'm not a "shower" or a "grower" as I am tiny flaccid and erect. I'm not trying to discount your pain because I know it is real but I did want to throw it out there that you are in a much better position than a lot of guys even though it may not feel that way. I'm assuming your 5.5" is bone pressed, and if so, you are average (maybe a little above). If you are talking non-bone pressed then you're definitely above average. I know this may not make you feel better but I wanted to throw it out there. As @YOTH indicated, you may never be porn material but you should have enough penis to please all but the pickiest of size queens.

1 hour ago, Victimorthecrime said:

Would anyone be happy w average grades? Average income?  Average performance review at work? 

I think this depends on what you are use to. If I was use to being below average, all of the time, then average would definitely be a step up. Would I be ecstatic? Maybe not but would I be happier, no doubt. Average, as it relates to penis size, does not equate to average performance in bed or average satisfaction of women. It means that half of the male population is smaller than you and half is larger. Now to really dig into this average you have to look at the bell curve because sizes are not linear across the spectrum. This means that roughly 96% of guys are within plus or minus 2 standard deviations from the average and 68% of guys are within 1 SD. This means, if we take the bone pressed male average of 5.1" and the SD of .65" then 96% of guys are between 3.8" and 6.4" and 68% of guys are between 4.45" and 5.75". There is an extremely low number of guys above the 6.4" mark as well as an extremely low number below the 3.8" mark. It just so happens that those guys above 6.4" are much more willing to show their "stuff' than those who are average or below average so it appears that guys with big cocks are everywhere.

There are not enough big cocks in the world to go around so either there are many women out there who are just not being satisfied or the "average" guy can do a good job of taking care of business.

@Kev I know none of this may help the way you feel as for many guys this is a mental issue more so than a physical one. It can be debilitating either way. I hope things improve for you but if you're anything like me it comes in waves and sometimes things are okay and sometimes they really suck. I also hope you can get your diabetes and ED under control because this can just add to the negative feelings.

[Victimorthecrime]

3 minutes ago, lostboy1 said:

Average, as it relates to penis size, does not equate to average performance in bed or average satisfaction of women.

Agree.  I was just showing understanding to the OP on how someone could reasonably be dissatisfied with being labeled "average".  

[LostBoy]

2 minutes ago, Victimorthecrime said:

Agree.  I was just showing understanding to the OP on how someone could reasonably be dissatisfied with being labeled "average".  

Yes, I understand what you meant. My comment wasn't intended to disagree with you, just to clarify that average isn't always what it seems when talking about penis size. As I mentioned, we all have our SPS demons to deal with and even an "above average" guy can be impacted.

SPS can be physical but, from what I've seen on here, it is more often mental in nature.

[Helpless_loner]

This post sums up my feelings and therefore my fears.....

I mean, I know that at 5.5 inches (bone pressed and in a very good day)  things could be worse ( I hate my girth even more) but that along with my inexperiece (30 years old virgin) makes me being that afraid of intimacy and sex I just cannot bring myself to take my clothes off.

I've read polls in which, at least in terms of length, I'm "average" yet every guy in amateur videos look bigger and wider than me...

.

[Victimorthecrime]

Well said @Helpless_loner. 

I believe SPS is actually a collection of problems: 

1) Porn comparison distress

2) Erectile disfunction

3) Premature ejaculation 

4) Overall lack success & confidence w females

5) Generalized lack of self esteem

6) Actual average or below size

7) The end result of 40 years of relentless male bashing in schools, the media, and Hollywood. 

This is my conclusion based on several years of reading posts on this forum.  I am in no way claiming to be the expert or the final word, just sharing my view.  

 

[Kev]

On 12/26/2017 at 12:05 PM, lostboy1 said:

Hi @Kev, first off, I'm sorry for the pain you are going through. SPS sucks for all of us and we all have our ups and downs and right now it sounds like you're down. I've been there many times. Frankly, I'm not a "shower" or a "grower" as I am tiny flaccid and erect. I'm not trying to discount your pain because I know it is real but I did want to throw it out there that you are in a much better position than a lot of guys even though it may not feel that way. I'm assuming your 5.5" is bone pressed, and if so, you are average (maybe a little above). If you are talking non-bone pressed then you're definitely above average. I know this may not make you feel better but I wanted to throw it out there. As @YOTH indicated, you may never be porn material but you should have enough penis to please all but the pickiest of size queens.

I think this depends on what you are use to. If I was use to being below average, all of the time, then average would definitely be a step up. Would I be ecstatic? Maybe not but would I be happier, no doubt. Average, as it relates to penis size, does not equate to average performance in bed or average satisfaction of women. It means that half of the male population is smaller than you and half is larger. Now to really dig into this average you have to look at the bell curve because sizes are not linear across the spectrum. This means that roughly 96% of guys are within plus or minus 2 standard deviations from the average and 68% of guys are within 1 SD. This means, if we take the bone pressed male average of 5.1" and the SD of .65" then 96% of guys are between 3.8" and 6.4" and 68% of guys are between 4.45" and 5.75". There is an extremely low number of guys above the 6.4" mark as well as an extremely low number below the 3.8" mark. It just so happens that those guys above 6.4" are much more willing to show their "stuff' than those who are average or below average so it appears that guys with big cocks are everywhere.

There are not enough big cocks in the world to go around so either there are many women out there who are just not being satisfied or the "average" guy can do a good job of taking care of business.

@Kev I know none of this may help the way you feel as for many guys this is a mental issue more so than a physical one. It can be debilitating either way. I hope things improve for you but if you're anything like me it comes in waves and sometimes things are okay and sometimes they really suck. I also hope you can get your diabetes and ED under control because this can just add to the negative feelings.

Greetings lostboy1, I want to point out that I don't feel I have SPS.  Like I mentioned in my title as well as part of my discussion, it's not just size that I am disappointed with.  The overall look of my flaccid penis, the fact that there is nothing that really can be done about it when there is plastic surgery for women from lipo-suction, tummy tucks, face lifts etc.  I could get my ligament cut to allow the penis to drop more, However, if feel, it would be like asking a woman to have half her legs removed so her ass looks proportionately bigger. 

Also, I will argue the word "average".  Just because statistically speaking it's falls on a table or graph as being average, it just doesn't feel or is being treated as average.  For example; If I said the average car is white and has 120 horse power and you drive a car that is white and has 120 horse power, but you crave a red car with 300 horse power, but I say, "Hey, lostboy1, you should be happy, you have an average car".  But you are not happy at all because it's not what you want.  Now imagine that most girls oooh, and awww over that red, 300 HP car, but don't give a white 120 Horse power car one glance.  Just because it's average, doesn't make it AOK.  It also doesn't make me suffer from SPS.  I know there are lots of woman out there that would be mostly happy with a 5.5" penis, but that is not my dilemma,  It just means I don't like, nor will I ever like, the look of my penis or be happy with it's size.

The meat and potatoes of my discussion revolves around the fact that there is an appendage on my body that I can't fix.  I am overweight.  I can exercise.  If I was not intellectual, I could go to school.  If I had bad teeth, I could literally (if I was rich!) go and get an entire set of ceramics to fill my mouth.  I also feel for those that are short and hate being short.  Again, nothing can be done unless you wear platform shoes.  I guess I could stuff a potato down my pants?  I don't think so.

I do thank you for reading my column however. 

[Kev]

3 hours ago, Helpless_loner said:

This post sums up my feelings and therefore my fears.....

I mean, I know that at 5.5 inches (bone pressed and in a very good day)  things could be worse ( I hate my girth even more) but that along with my inexperiece (30 years old virgin) makes me being that afraid of intimacy and sex I just cannot bring myself to take my clothes off.

I've read polls in which, at least in terms of length, I'm "average" yet every guy in amateur videos look bigger and wider than me...

.

Greetings Helpless_loner; I want you to know that one of my statements on my OP was I was "about to explode" because I am a person that likes to discuss, critique and make opinion on subjects.  But my "extra belly button" was not a topic of discussion in the open before I could post to this site.  I basically want other men to know that they are not alone.  That there is other men that don't care about the "average size" criteria we keep getting shoved down our throats, that any statistic that assembles us in a group is not how we feel or view things.  Personally, I've had quite a few women in my lifetime but I've never got the "holy shit" reaction and I know it's because of the size of my penis.  it's not nice looking one either.  My flaccid penis is ugly and the length is rather short for my taste.  I was posed with the question from my wife "why do you care who like or dislikes your penis"?  Because I was comparing myself to others I've seen in the showers (military days), or other everyday sources like internet photos etc.  I asked her point blank "Well, do you like your butt when you look in the mirror"?  She didn't say anything.  I then replied "exactly".  Then I said that she could loose weight, get implants, lipo-suction and do exercises to increase, decrease or slim out her bottom.  That is something we can't do with our penises.

There is something I wanted to point out while you are reading this or anyone else that is reading this.  The porn I watch does not affect how I feel about myself.  But I noticed since I remember porn in the 80's and 90's is that it's starting to veer way off course from the days of good'ol sex with normal 6" penises.  I think there is a purposely sinister movement that is showcasing guys with massive penises and now they have sites dedicated to "tiny penis" ridicule.  Unfortunately these guys are 6" or smaller.  I think it's tailored to make men inferior, emasculated and desperate.  I haven't seen any website dedicated to ridiculing fat woman or small breasted women.  

With that being said.  I don't care what they show on the porn sites, amateur or otherwise.  That's totally entertainment and not to be taken seriously.  It's like watching a movie with Arnold Schwarzenegger, it's purely fantasy, fun, but fantasy.  They seek out large endowed men and those that expose themselves to be ridiculed should ask themselves one thing, who watches those movies?  Women?  I don't think so.    

I just want to point out that there is some replies talking about Small Penis Syndrome.  I really don't like the head shrinking stuff.  Is there a Small Breast Syndrome?  Is there a Huge Butt Syndrome?  It seems there should be considering how much woman focus on those things.  So personally, it's just something that some of us guys are wanting to change to feel better about themselves.  I will say this again and again.  I TOTALLY boil over with rage when women say, "If he's small, then he should be gifted with other things".  Man that really pulls my tail.  Could you imagine if I said to ANY woman "Hey, your so loose, so I hope that you can suck like a hoover vacuum".  How well would you think that would go over?  Food for thought.

[LostBoy]

9 hours ago, Kev said:

I want to point out that I don't feel I have SPS.  Like I mentioned in my title as well as part of my discussion, it's not just size that I am disappointed with.

I think the word "just" threw me because this sounded like you were also not happy with your size. Sorry for any misunderstanding on my part.

 

9 hours ago, Kev said:

the fact that there is nothing that really can be done about it when there is plastic surgery for women

Yep, this sucks. I've made the same argument /comments many times. Supposedly it has to deal with the complexity of the penis but I believe that it just hasn't been a focus area for doctors over the past 40 years.

 

9 hours ago, Kev said:

I say, "Hey, lostboy1, you should be happy, you have an average car".  But you are not happy at all because it's not what you want.

I don't think that I said anywhere in my post that you should be happy. There are multimillionaires out there who are unhappy because they don't have enough money so I can't say that you should be happy with an average penis. The only point I was making was that you are larger than a lot of guys, including myself, and that I would be much happier with an average sized penis. It goes back to your car analogy. I would be much happier with the average car than no car.

You admit that you do not have SPS so I can only deduce that what you have is greed. You want more than you have for no other reason than you want to have more than everyone else. I don't mean this badly as we are all a little greedy in different ways. I just don't know what to tell you other than maybe one day surgery will be an option.

 

[Kev]

15 hours ago, lostboy1 said:

I think the word "just" threw me because this sounded like you were also not happy with your size. Sorry for any misunderstanding on my part.

 

Yep, this sucks. I've made the same argument /comments many times. Supposedly it has to deal with the complexity of the penis but I believe that it just hasn't been a focus area for doctors over the past 40 years.

 

I don't think that I said anywhere in my post that you should be happy. There are multimillionaires out there who are unhappy because they don't have enough money so I can't say that you should be happy with an average penis. The only point I was making was that you are larger than a lot of guys, including myself, and that I would be much happier with an average sized penis. It goes back to your car analogy. I would be much happier with the average car than no car.

You admit that you do not have SPS so I can only deduce that what you have is greed. You want more than you have for no other reason than you want to have more than everyone else. I don't mean this badly as we are all a little greedy in different ways. I just don't know what to tell you other than maybe one day surgery will be an option.

 

Greetings lostboy1; I would agree with you on some counts.  Although I do have some points to mention.  When I said "you should be happy", I know you didn't say it to me.  It was merely a hypothetical comment to highlight that comparative statistics don't convey how a person feels or should feel about something.   

As for being greedy.  It depends on motivation. Would we call an athlete greedy if they want to take gold and be better than anyone else competing?  I would say no, because they want the gold as bad as everyone else.  I think greed comes into play when you want something that takes away from others.  Doping in the Olympics, that was greed.  The gas companies charging more than what is needed to have a marginal profit is greed.  Taking all the rice from the food bank even though you don't need it is what i term greed.  Me wanting a penis that is satisfying to me, does not take away from others, in my mind, is not greed.  What I want is to be satisfied with the look and size both flaccid and hard.  My ideal happy place.

This, of course, is my own opinion.  I think SPS is a bogus disorder.  Like I said before.  There is no "Big ass syndrome" or "Small breast syndrome".  And if there was a small breast syndrome, would it only affect woman with 'average breasts' and larger?  Would it mean that woman who have triple Z breast implants have a mental disorder? or have some kind of syndrome?  How can you have a syndrome that targets only half the statistics graph?  I think SPS is geared towards men that are not satisfied, but are statistically average but make them feel guilty for feeling that way.  That's BS in my book.  

Hey, I am supporting and on-board with any man that feels they don't like their penis.  My original OP was to get my feelings out, let other men understand they are not alone.  Whether they have a 3" erection or a 10" erection, whether they think it's too big and it hurts their wife or GF or they want to go from 5 inches to 8.  I feel for them because it's one of the appendages that we want changed.  I think it's doable and I think the medical establishment is not focusing enough to allow guys to have the needed changes without fear of loss of sexual use or bad side effects.  I mean, they've been doing heart transplants and other organs since the 1960's.  And they are just now doing penis transplants for veterans and accident victims.  So there is hope.  I hope someday it will be a thing of the past.   

Again, thanks for the stimulating conversation.

[LostBoy]

6 hours ago, Kev said:

I think SPS is a bogus disorder.  Like I said before.  There is no "Big ass syndrome" or "Small breast syndrome". 

Hi @Kev, While you are certainly entitled to your opinion I think you should know that SPS is a form of Body Dysmorphic Disorder which is a very real disorder and would likely include the "big ass/small tits" crowd as well.

As a person who has SPS, trust me it's very real.

6 hours ago, Kev said:

I think SPS is geared towards men that are not satisfied, but are statistically average but make them feel guilty for feeling that way. 

Maybe you should read posts in the SPS forum to help you understand SPS. It can affect average guys but it also affects small guys. It can be debilitating to some guys and they cannot function due to it. There are adult middle aged men who have never had sex due to it and there are others who refuse to go to doctors or change at the gym because of it. I, as well as many other guys, have had SPS for years (even before SPS was a known or discussed issue) so no other person made me feel this way.

[2thin2win]

@kev - have you tried jelqing? Try it, after the first couple sessions, you will notice a difference in your flaccid hang. Unfortunately, I don't  believe for a second that it works to make your erect bigger but flaccid....yes it works, at least for me.

[Kev]

On 12/31/2017 at 8:49 AM, lostboy1 said:

Hi @Kev, While you are certainly entitled to your opinion I think you should know that SPS is a form of Body Dysmorphic Disorder which is a very real disorder and would likely include the "big ass/small tits" crowd as well.

As a person who has SPS, trust me it's very real.

Maybe you should read posts in the SPS forum to help you understand SPS. It can affect average guys but it also affects small guys. It can be debilitating to some guys and they cannot function due to it. There are adult middle aged men who have never had sex due to it and there are others who refuse to go to doctors or change at the gym because of it. I, as well as many other guys, have had SPS for years (even before SPS was a known or discussed issue) so no other person made me feel this way.

Greetings lostboy1; I think I owe you an apology, actually I owe anyone that is suffering from SPS and apology.  That was too harsh of a statement that I made saying SPS was bogus.  I want to clarify my position on this matter so you understand my point of view.

Here is the WebMD quick description of the disorder; "Small penis syndrome is the anxiety of thinking one's penis is too small, even though it isn't.  It's a totally different condition from having a truly small penis, a condition known by the cold, clinical name of micro-penis".  A micro penis is defined as a penis that is 2.6" or smaller when erect.  (unfortunately statistics comes into play again).

So the basic gist is that if you have a penis that is close to average or above, and you think it's small, it's defined as SPS.  I don't agree with this analogy.  It labels those that are truly not satisfied with their penis as having a syndrome.  As I mentioned before, "average" is a statistic.  Being laughed at by people in a change room is not a statistic, it's reality because it happened to me in my life.  Being told my cock size was "I guess, all right", by a woman is reality too.  So, for those that feel they just got handed the short end of the stick (pun intended), I don't think they should be put in a category if they are sane, healthy, sound mind and just feel they want to change a part of themselves that is not what they want.  It feels like I am being labeled while I have a true dislike for my junk look and size.  I know I've mentioned this before, but I want to reiterate it again.  There is no "small breast syndrome".  Here is what Wikipedia says about Micromastia; "is a medical term describing the post pubertal underdevelopment of a woman's breast tissue.  Just as it is impossible to define 'normal' breast size, there is no objective definition of micromastia."  In other words, if a woman wants larger breasts, medical science has come up with a way to make that woman happy.  They don't have classes to teach a woman on how to accept what they have.  Although I am certain there is medical personnel that will meet with the client to ensure that is what they want.  There is no definition of what constitutes small breasts anyways, so that you can't say a woman that doesn't like her 36C cup breasts as suffering "small breast syndrome". 
Body Dysmorphic Disorder was mentioned and that SPS is based on that.  But it's defined as a mental disorder (Wikipedia).  I feel  (my opinion) that if a person had true BDD and penis enlargement was available and safe, they would not be satisfied, ever, with any sized penis rather than some small or moderate changes that would make a guy feel good about the new size they could have. 
I feel the changes I want are minimal really, with me, it's a change to the flaccid and erectness of 1 to 1.5 inches to the length.  Is that much to ask?

[Kev]

On 1/2/2018 at 5:12 PM, 2thin2win said:

@kev - have you tried jelqing? Try it, after the first couple sessions, you will notice a difference in your flaccid hang. Unfortunately, I don't  believe for a second that it works to make your erect bigger but flaccid....yes it works, at least for me.

2thin2win; I have thought about many things to help with my issues.  I am currently trying to loose weight which will get rid of my fat pad which hides around 1 inch of erect and flaccid length.  I want to try the extenders as well which I hope will give me any length increase.  I hear Jelqing and the extenders really are the only things that have given some permanent changes for men.  I did use pumps a few years ago and I did see a bit of an increase in my girth.  I do believe it was more permanent.  I am glad I can't afford penis enlargement surgery, even though I know it could have possible side effects, I am intrigued with some of the more modern techniques.  However, I did see a guy that had a penis silicone implant removed because he was so small that his penis literally retracted below the prosthetic and it was so awful it made me cringe, but also feel his pain.