So what is a small penis and why does it matter?

[Toosmallforcomfort]

https://www.sandiegouniontribune.com/news/health/sdut-penis-length-study-2015mar02-story.html

So, I haven't posted in awhile because I needed a break from this forum to reset my thoughts.  Many of you know I like concrete stats, things that are black and white, and logical.  When it comes to SPS, much of it is not logic and more about emotion and self inflicted ideals stemming from a lack of sexual confidence based on real or perceived small penis size due to societal expectations or personal experiences.  I found this comprehensive study, although I'm sure many of you have found the same information, about average penis size. It is a metanalysis of several studies with a huge sample size of 15,000 men.  That means the results should be pretty reliable and one can extrapolate these results to the rest of the male population.  Unless,  many of the measuring studies where flawed in some way or another, i.e., poor ethnic sample distribution, self and not direct measurement, etc.   I just wanted to point some things out to everyone, if not for myself.

Of the 15,000 men, the average erect size is 5.17 inches.  One standard deviation is 0.65 inches.  Therefore 68% of all men fall between 4.52 and 5.82 inches.  16% of all men are greater or equal to5.82 inches and 16% are less than or equal to 4.52 inches.  So how many of us suffer from SPS? 50%?  I don't think so.  Or, maybe we do and not all of us below the average exhibit the same severity of symptoms that hinder our potential achievements in sexual, personal, or life experiences.   This is where it gets fuzzy for me; it's not all black and white.  There is something quite complex about how we all handle this short coming differently.

Now, when it comes to women and their preferred penis size, the most quoted research study by far (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4558040/) showed that women preferred a penis of slightly larger circumference and length for one-time sexual partner (length = 6.4 inches/16.3 cm, circumference = 5.0 inches/12.7 cm) versus long-term sexual (length = 6.3 inches/16.0 cm, circumference = 4.8 inches/12.2 cm) sexual partners.   Therefore, if we average this to 6.35 inches, this places the ideal sized man to be about only 14%(estimate as I don't have the stats of the study, but obviously less than 16%) of the population.  This tells me there are a lot of sexually unhappy heterosexual women out there based on their said preference.  And, if they are sexually experienced, as this is a numbers game, the more chance she would have found that 6.35 inch guy and would have eventually settled for someone smaller. Again, law of averages dictates that fact.  Now, I understand the penis alone is not everything to the heterosexual experience for women, but physiologically, it has to be a very important component.

So what's my point....  SPS should be an epidemic, but it doesn't seem to be that way, or maybe it actually is and is just silent, festering in most men's minds and never discussed or realized.  As my soon-to-be-ex-wife says, you should fake it till you make it.  Well, I didn't fake it and it cost me my marriage.  Although, I suffer from a lack of sexual confidence because of my size (less than the mean, but within one standard deviation), I find it illogical that I continue to struggle to find my way out of this funk given the sheer number of men that are sexually confident, married and in long term relationships.  Logically, however, I am still human.

 

[Wayless]

1 hour ago, Toosmallforcomfort said:

So what's my point....  SPS should be an epidemic, but it doesn't seem to be that way, or maybe it actually is and is just silent, festering in most men's minds and never discussed or realized.  As my soon-to-be-ex-wife says, you should fake it till you make it.  Well, I didn't fake it and it cost me my marriage.  Although, I suffer from a lack of sexual confidence because of my size (less than the mean, but within one standard deviation), I find it illogical that I continue to struggle to find my way out of this funk given the sheer number of men that are sexually confident, married and in long term relationships.  Logically, however, I am still human.

But it is epidemic and getting worse because of porn and increased promiscuity prior to marriage.  I saw a study showing 60% of men think they are "too small."  Various movements of men are developing like MGTOW (men going their own way) and INCELS (involuntarily celibates) which forsake sex as undoable for all but the elite of men.  Some mix in misogyny, blaming the big dick or pro-thug attitudes of women.

I don't have the survey at hand, but I'll see if I can find it.  The flaw in this mode of thinking, however, is that women don't generally choose men based primarily on dick size nor do most women have sex with enough men to accurately determine their ideal dick size though, perhaps, more and more do given the "hook-up" culture.

I am quite old and can't help but remember how, when the pill was invented and people thought sexual nirvana was coming.  They overlooked disease and competition.  To the victor goes the spoils if you don't get a disease.

Faking it 'till you make it is nonsense as far as I can tell.  Sure, it works if the woman reacts positively to your dick after you fake the confidence to get her in bed.  If not, you start on a downward spiral.  I faked it plenty though I needed alcohol to fake it.

BTW:  Your study is the gold standard by all accounts.  The average erection is just over 5".  It might be somewhat skewed towards small, however, because Asians really are smaller apparently.  The average in the West might be more like 5.5.  That study does not use self selection as urologists measured random patients covertly.  Men who self select for measurement tend to be 6" or more as Kinsey's survey showed.  The other problem is that erections were not measured.  Instead, urologists stretched flaccids to estimate erection.  This doesn't work at the small end and I am an example.

Often my flaccid is tightly retracted at 1" or less especially during any sort of nude medical exam.  It can be stretched to only 3 or 3.5".  Erect, I am actually between 4" and 4.5.  Thus, the average erection measurement is dragged down by people like me.   Again, the real average is probably more like 5.5 or a bit more.  Last time I looked you could actually see the bump in the bell curve at the low end indicating this phenomenon is real.

There is plenty of testimony from women, that if properly aroused by a gentle man they like and trust, prefer deeper penetration at least some of the time than afforded by 5" or so.

Part of why this is a silent issue is because most afflicted men solve it through denial often with the help of their partner or wife.  That women aren't really orgasming is a standing joke because many men worry about it.  Women often don't complain or fake it so their husband can feel good about himself.  Or only her orally stimulated orgasms are real, etc.  Many women still consider relationship and family more important than missing orgasms from penetration.

[Victimorthecrime]

15 hours ago, uptight outasight said:

But it is epidemic and getting worse because of porn and increased promiscuity prior to marriage

Agree completely.  Add to that some social factors that I don’t feel like getting into and there ya have it.  

[Toosmallforcomfort]

On 2/1/2020 at 12:21 AM, uptight outasight said:

Various movements of men are developing like MGTOW (men going their own way) and INCELS (involuntarily celibates) which forsake sex as undoable for all but the elite of men.

I was asked earlier from someone in this forum what would I do next.  Find someone else?  My initial reaction was I need some time.  But honestly,  I've been in a celibate marriage, not her,  the day my wife told me she no longer wanted to have sex with me close to 4 years they day after we sought couples counseling for the last time.

 Sex was always an anxiety producing experience ever since I could remember.  Knowing where I stood in the bell curve yielded my lack of bedroom confidence.  So these last four years or so, I have not had that specific anxiety and I've been OK with that.  Imagine knowing that you have to have sex with your wife to just keep her happy enough to stay in the marriage.  And then doing such a poor job at it, she no longer wants to have it with you.  Actually, I'm surprised I was married for as long as I was.   So now if you ask me, I think I'm ok being asexual.  Am I 100% ok with that?  No.  But, celibacy for me avoids anxiety that would happen again if I chose to date unless something in my mindset makes a dramatic change at age 46.  There lies my conundrum. 

[CircusLeavesTown]

1 hour ago, Toosmallforcomfort said:

So now if you ask me, I think I'm ok being asexual.  Am I 100% ok with that?  No.  But, celibacy for me avoids anxiety that would happen again if I chose to date unless something in my mindset makes a dramatic change at age 46.  There lies my conundrum. 

I've been thinking about this more and more lately. I've never had sex at 30 years old, due to a traumatizing experience in my teens. The mere thought of sex gives me full blown panic attacks which, realistically, will be incredibly difficult to fully overcome. I don't crave sex, I just crave companionship. I hope I'll find my asexual life partner one day

[Reality]

On 2/1/2020 at 6:21 AM, uptight outasight said:

Again, the real average is probably more like 5.5 or a bit more.

This is not true. Keep in mind that these guys were not forced to be measured. They volunteered for fun. The smaller the penis, the less likely a man is to take part.

If you sincerely search for the truth, you will have to search below 5".

Nonetheless, many don't even want to accept the 5.1", so it won't change anything.

[YOTH]

12 hours ago, Reality said:

This is not true. Keep in mind that these guys were not forced to be measured. They volunteered for fun. The smaller the penis, the less likely a man is to take part.

If you sincerely search for the truth, you will have to search below 5".

Nonetheless, many don't even want to accept the 5.1", so it won't change anything.

I've been saying this for years, these figures will never be black and white because they're voluntary. If you factor in every man who wouldn't be caught dead getting measured, you'll find the average would drop. The truth is, that some guys are ok with their size, some guys are more than ok with their size, and the rest us have to pretend or completely struggle. 

Things will only get worse in society because perception is made entirely of lies and perception is everything. But it's about time we grew as men and at least tried to take back the truth, not allowing anyone who feels like it the power to tell us what they think is normal. Normal is bullshit, it always has been, and the truth be told, it doesn't exist. 

[Wayless]

15 hours ago, YOTH said:

I've been saying this for years, these figures will never be black and white because they're voluntary. If you factor in every man who wouldn't be caught dead getting measured, you'll find the average would drop. The truth is, that some guys are ok with their size, some guys are more than ok with their size, and the rest us have to pretend or completely struggle. 

Things will only get worse in society because perception is made entirely of lies and perception is everything. But it's about time we grew as men and at least tried to take back the truth, not allowing anyone who feels like it the power to tell us what they think is normal. Normal is bullshit, it always has been, and the truth be told, it doesn't exist. 

No.  The studies by urologists ARE NOT VOLUNTARY.  They covertly measure by stretching the flaccid as part of their examination.  They come-up with around 5.1" regularly.

I agree with your general point, however.

[Reality]

2 hours ago, uptight outasight said:

No.  The studies by urologists ARE NOT VOLUNTARY.  They covertly measure by stretching the flaccid as part of their examination.  They come-up with around 5.1" regularly.

I agree with your general point, however.

This is - the way you phrase it - simply factually wrong and illegal, no matter how often you repeat it.

Even if urologists were able to force people to be measured, people with small penises are far less likely to go to urologists due to the fear of being shamed. If it's actually usual to measure the penis where you come from, this effect will increase. 

Plus these urologists did and do not force the people who go there to be measured. It is not part of their usual examination (atleast where I come from ) and there is no medical reason for doing so (if it's not to keep track of DHT-Therapy on micropenises). 

I'm not saying that the measurements weren't taken during examinations - some urologists may just ask if you want to take part, but saying the studies are not voluntary would imply major human rights violations, no matter how you twist it. I don't know if you knew this, but you can reject anything a doctor suggests. 

Most Urologists know what it's like to be ashamed of letting some random doctor check that area - I can't see many of them asking small guys to be measured, honestly, and I've never heard that before.

On a sidenote: i know that stretching can sometimes lead to smaller results, but it has been established that the fluctuations are not too significant. Adding a whopping 0.5" for that, which is a huge amount when talking about penis size, is far from rational. 

 

The WHO research ethics committees state the following: 

https://www.who.int/ethics/Ethics_basic_concepts_ENG.pdf

Quote

The voluntary consent of the human subject is absolutely essential. This means that the person involved should have legal capacity to give consent; should be so situated as to be able to exercise free power of choice, without the intervention of any element of force, fraud, deceit, duress, over-reaching [deception], or other ulterior form of constraint or coercion; and should have sufficient knowledge and comprehension of the elements of the subject matter involved as to enable him to make an understanding and enlightened decision. This latter element requires that before the acceptance of an affirmative decision by the experimental subject there should be made known to him the nature, duration and purpose of the experiment; the method and means by which it is to be conducted; all inconveniences and hazards reasonable to be expected; and the effects upon his health or person which may possibly come from his participation in the experiment. The duty and responsibility for ascertaining the quality of the consent rests upon each individual who initiates, directs or engages in the experiment. It is a personal duty and responsibility which may not be delegated to another with impunity. [...]

[..] if there are no potential direct benefits to participants, that fact should be made clear.[...]

Special attention needs to be given to those factors that might undermine the validity of the process: 

[...] the tendency of individuals to confuse being a participant in research with receiving individualized medical care (the “therapeutic misconception”).

You cannot obtain data involuntarily and use it in your paper. 

[Klingsor]

3 hours ago, uptight outasight said:

They covertly measure by stretching the flaccid as part of their examination.

Stretched flaccid length does not statistically correlate with erect length, and the studies I've read make that clear. Mine gets bigger when it's rock hard (rarely achieve it) than I can actually stretch it soft. However, all of this is moot because it's the appearance that matters.

[YOTH]

5 hours ago, uptight outasight said:

No.  The studies by urologists ARE NOT VOLUNTARY.  They covertly measure by stretching the flaccid as part of their examination.  They come-up with around 5.1" regularly.

I agree with your general point, however.

Well, I know guys from here who actively avoid going to the doctor at all because of their size, so I still stand by that. And how the fuck, on god's green hell do you covertly measure a guys junk? Of course you'd have to ask. If a doctor was messing about with my old boy I'd be watching the cunt like a hawk. I'm telling you right now, guys with micropenises are not popping in for regular checkups, covert or otherwise. 

[YOTH]

2 hours ago, Klingsor said:

Stretched flaccid length does not statistically correlate with erect length, and the studies I've read make that clear. Mine gets bigger when it's rock hard (rarely achieve it) than I can actually stretch it soft. However, all of this is moot because it's the appearance that matters.

Exactly, unless they measure erect, it's all null and void anyway. And lets be clear, there's nobody (Urologist or otherwise) measuring a guys hard cock covertly. 

[Reality]

4 hours ago, Klingsor said:

Stretched flaccid length does not statistically correlate with erect length, and the studies I've read make that clear. Mine gets bigger when it's rock hard (rarely achieve it) than I can actually stretch it soft. However, all of this is moot because it's the appearance that matters.

This wouldn't matter as long as it's distributed similarly. You will never be able to determine an exact value anyway. I would love to see the studies though!

The 700 erect measurements from the 15.000 men study actually showed a smaller average than the 14.000 stretched ones. 

https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1111/bju.13010

[Klingsor]

@Reality I may have to eat my words on this one. In general I don't put much emphasis on these size studies for reasons I've laid out ad nauseum over the years. I would have sworn I read a study that stated stretched length did not correlate with erect length, but these seem to suggest otherwise:

https://www.auajournals.org/doi/10.1016/S0022-5347(01)65682-9

Quote

Stretched length most closely correlated with erect length.

https://www.nature.com/articles/3901569/tables/4

 

[Klingsor]

However, I do agree with @YOTH ... I have no idea how a doctor could be clandestinely measuring this without getting his face caved in.

[Klingsor]

Wow!

http://www.ccf.org/ReproductiveResearchCenter/docs/publications/367_Tomova_A_et_al_Growth_and_Development_of_Male_External_Genitalia.pdf

Quote

A modest though significant difference was found with respect to penile size between urban and rural populations. On average, the children from rural regions were born with longer penises than their urban counterparts (mean [SD] length, 3.64 [0.49] cm vs 3.49 [0.49] cm at age 1 year;P.01). During the course of pubertal development, the disparity in penile length continued to be significant (mean [SD] length, 9.72 [1.17] cm vs 9.29[1.04] cm at age 19 years;P.01).

Interestingly, our study demonstrated that, at least in Bulgaria, the average penis size is bigger at birth and also at the end of sexual maturation in rural populations com-pared with urban populations. However, this difference is small (ie, less than 0.5 cm), and at present, it is not clear whether it is of any clinical significance. The reasons are unknown but may be attributed to genetic and environmental factors.

As we all know even 0.00000000000000000000321574 cm can make a HUGE difference in psychological well being.

[Klingsor]

Getting back to Doctor T's op, I still think this is the best comprehensive explanation of everything. This guy was called "hot" by women and had no ancillary anxieties about approaching them. Yet he still wound up in Hell's foyer aka the SPS forum. I always liked nytaiji, I hope he's doing well.

On 11/6/2014 at 9:52 AM, nytaiji said:

I'll start off by saying, I'm 6"x4.5". If I felt technique trumped size, or even came close, I wouldn't be here. Here's my opinion on a woman's orgasm. Men put more weight on the woman's orgasm than women do. Most women really can't orgasm through penetration alone. I agree with that statement. Of the ones that can, average or smaller will never cut it. But we men automatically think that if the woman didn't orgasm, it wasn't the greatest sex in the world for her. Not true at all. I have found that this is also one of those excuses that women tell smaller guys. "But he couldn't make me orgasm like you do". That makes the man immediately think she enjoys the sex more with him. Again, not true. Men care more about the orgasm than women do. That "full" feeling women describe that a very large dick provides is FAR better than an orgasm for a woman. Not all women obviously, but the heavy majority that I've talked to. Now I'm no expert, but this has been my life experience with women. Only one time have I ever been able to make a girl orgasm through penetration. And that was because she had an abnormally small vagina. Told to her by her gyno. She had admitted to faking it with other guys because she wanted them to stop. I've also heard that from other women. They usually fake it when they want it over. Men seem to think marathon sex is a good thing. But if the woman starts to lose her vaginal wetness she will probably fake an orgasm rather than hurt the guys feelings and tell him she isn't enjoying it. And I've heard from women that some guys can keep going as long as they want. Well if their goal is the females orgasm, and the female knows it's not gonna happen, she has 2 choices. Tell him to stop or fake an orgasm. 90% of the time when I've heard a woman tell me she's faked it before, it was for that exact reason. I don't last long enough for them to need to fake an orgasm to get me to stop. lol So no I don't think she was faking. But, other than that, only through oral sex have I been able to make women orgasm. And that's because, like most other ill-equipped guys, we learn to make up for it and we are better at oral than most guys. When I have heard large men having sex with women, it sounded like they were almost having an orgasm the ENTIRE time. It's that full feeling that they absolutely love. It's a MUCH deeper moan, like a grunt. That's not a reaction I've ever been able to produce. And I never will. Because no matter how good my technique, I just can't create that full feeling. And THAT trumps everything! Hope this answered your question. I have no problem talking about my experiences so feel free to ask.

 

 

[Klingsor]

Another point worth considering along the same vein: the most extreme elements of right wing populism advocate for raping women, that women secretly desire to be raped and taken by "real men"....that this is what women want and are out of control because the aren't getting it vis-a-vis the "soy boys". So it stands to reason that from their perspective, the most alpha of alphas is the man capable of exerting maximum rape on the woman...what better way to demonstrate this than with a huge, gigantic dick - the instrument of the penetration. So size still matters. But anyone who isn't in complete self-denial never doubted this.

Quote

From Reservoir Dogs:

MR. BROWN
What the fuck was I talking about ?

MR. ORANGE
You said "True Blue" was about a guy, you said it's a girl who meets a nice guy.
But "Like a Virgin" was a metaphor for big dicks.

MR. BROWN
Ok, let me tell ya what "Like a Virgin"'s about.
It's all about this cooze who's a regular fuck machine.
I'm talking, morning, day,night, afternoon,
Dick, dick, dick, dick, dick, dick, dick, dick, dick.

MR. BLUE
How many dicks is that?

MR. WHITE
A lot.

MR. BROWN
Then one day she meets a John Holmes motherfucker, and it's like, whoa baby.
I mean, this cat is like Charles Bronson in "The Great Escape." He's diggin tunnels.
Now she's gettin this serious dick action,
She's feelin something she ain't felt since forever. Pain. Pain

JOE
Chew? Toby Chew? No.

 

 

MR. BROWN

It hurts. It hurts her. It shouldn't hurt.
You know, her pussy should be Bubble-Yum by now.
But when this cat fucks her, it hurts. It hurts like it did the first time.
You see the pain is reminding a fuck machine what is once like to be a virgin.
Hence, "Like a Virgin."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NRd2gti9rHE

 

The "Bernie Bro" culture has also come under fire for sexism and abuse of exactly the same variety as the "alt-right". This is a cultural trend that will not stop and is aiming at complete converge followed by the submergence of the old wealth-based commercialized, neo-liberal hegemony. There is no escaping it.

It makes me wonder if someone like dvnj22 who absolutely detested women and would probably kill one if she suggested he become a cuckold, would be completely accepting of hung man asking to fuck his wife. I get that impression from a lot of men. They hate women to the degree that cuckoldry would be fine with them as long as the person suggesting it had a dick.

 

 

[YOTH]

@Klingsor I listen to the Reservoir Dogs soundtrack all the time, and that scene is one of the tracks. "When she fucks this cat, it hurts". Such a great monologue. It's also got the Charles Bronson bank manager speech that Mr White tells Mr Orange on the stakeout. Love that fucking movie. 

 

[Klingsor]

16 hours ago, YOTH said:

@Klingsor I listen to the Reservoir Dogs soundtrack all the time, and that scene is one of the tracks. "When she fucks this cat, it hurts". Such a great monologue. 

That's it, I mean that's SPS in a nutshell. I will never understand why it's so freaking hard to comprehend for some people.

[Victimorthecrime]

4 hours ago, Klingsor said:

dvnj22

I remember that dude. He was down in Mexico if memory serves me.  Like so many others I wonder how they are.  @mts  is another guy I wonder about.  Also @smallstar

[Klingsor]

8 hours ago, Victimorthecrime said:

Like so many others I wonder how they are.

Yeah. @Jessie @Wastedlife @ba51th and many others I can't recall their names. I wonder what happened to them and if they are coping. This is the only web board I've ever posted to, I don't use reddit or anything else. I wonder how many of them have hoped that I dropped dead lol? Would they come back here if they knew I were taking a ride in the brass-handled sedan? I have mellowed somewhat haven't I? Aside from occasional outbursts I've kept my promise to the mods.

Truth be told I'm worn out from this shit. Even Klingsor the Rabid reaches his limit. I have a small dick, I'm envious of men with large ones, and I will be disrespected for it the rest of my life. Ok. Whatever. If I'm insufficiently creative or intelligent or talented to escape wage slaving, can't I at least be granted a neutral place to work without having to listen to people discuss who's fucking whom or the incessant stream of dick jokes and pre-school potty humor? That's probably asking way too damn much. 

[Victimorthecrime]

I don’t like the layout of Reddit nor the general tone so yeah this is it for me apart from FB.  
 

None of those folks had any problem w you. Remember we made peace w SkyNight (was that his name?) before he left.  

I hear what you are saying. This is a rough time. Coronavirus madness everywhere. Can’t wait for spring.  

[Klingsor]

4 hours ago, Victimorthecrime said:

None of those folks had any problem w you. Remember we made peace w SkyNight (was that his name?) before he left. 

I had forgotten that but it’s good it know. 
 

4 hours ago, Victimorthecrime said:

Coronavirus madness everywhere.

The hysteria is being pushed to the max to disrupt commerce and seed the idea of how precarious a supply chain/globalized economy is. It’s just another push toward decentralization and syndicalism. At least that’s what I think. 

[Wayless]

On 3/11/2020 at 9:09 AM, Reality said:

This is - the way you phrase it - simply factually wrong and illegal, no matter how often you repeat it.

Even if urologists were able to force people to be measured, people with small penises are far less likely to go to urologists due to the fear of being shamed. If it's actually usual to measure the penis where you come from, this effect will increase. 

Plus these urologists did and do not force the people who go there to be measured. It is not part of their usual examination (atleast where I come from ) and there is no medical reason for doing so (if it's not to keep track of DHT-Therapy on micropenises). 

I'm not saying that the measurements weren't taken during examinations - some urologists may just ask if you want to take part, but saying the studies are not voluntary would imply major human rights violations, no matter how you twist it. I don't know if you knew this, but you can reject anything a doctor suggests. 

Most Urologists know what it's like to be ashamed of letting some random doctor check that area - I can't see many of them asking small guys to be measured, honestly, and I've never heard that before.

On a sidenote: i know that stretching can sometimes lead to smaller results, but it has been established that the fluctuations are not too significant. Adding a whopping 0.5" for that, which is a huge amount when talking about penis size, is far from rational. 

 

The WHO research ethics committees state the following: 

https://www.who.int/ethics/Ethics_basic_concepts_ENG.pdf

You cannot obtain data involuntarily and use it in your paper. 

I think you are wrong. 

The patients give permission for an examination which, without fanfare, turns-out to include stretched measurement the patient is unlikely to notice as he is lying on his back.

This is not considered an experiment and there is no privacy issue because the sizes are not recorded for a particular patient.  The patient expects to have his genitals examined and handled.  That is all.  Pretty sure I read this in the study protocols when I was looking into this.