AA & religion

[hermia]

With regard to religion...

My ex could never have been considered a religious person prior to his involvement with AA. He's always been a control freak and remains one to this day. He'll acknowlege your opinions only enough to keep you listening to his, but the bottom line always has been and still is, it's his way or no way.

At any rate, his stance of late with regard to our son is that it's in god's hands. He refuses to deal with the situation at all and essentially has washed his hands of it saying whatever god deems appropriate will be. He's gone as far as to tell me that even if my son dies in the process of his problems, it has nothing to do with us...it's god's will. Responsibility for dealing with his child is no longer his.

So as i told tony in a post regarding my son's trouble's...i have a bit of a bad taste for AA. Of course i cannot blame AA and like groups, individuals belong to these groups and of course are the only ones truly to be held accountable for their behaviors. But on the other hand i cannot dismiss the actions and behaviors i see in people involved in them...it obviously has an influence on their attitudes. What i see is alot of comradery until a situation gets bad, at that point they seem to want to not deal with it and leave it in the hands of the higher power. I suppose sinking into the muck with someone else leaves them exposed to relapse. That's not a good thing...i understand that. They need to place their own well being first or they're no good to anyone. But geeez....where is the responsibility for taking care of your own? Be it family, a friend, an acquaintance, a person youve sponsered, or just people you are connected to? Helping others is kind of key to living life as a human.

To conclude...i haven't fully arrived at an opinion on the AA front, i'm trying to be fair. I do see it as an alternative crutch to substance use. I guess thats ok...drugs and alchohol can kill...so almost any alternative is better than that. But by the same token i don't see many members truly concerned with the well being of others. They like to leave everyone else in god's hands and not bother getting their own dirty. Yes, that's neccessary to a certain point for anyone dealing with troubling issues, but there comes a point when you consider yourself recovered and stable and you look to begin helping others...it's at that point why i don't really understand why it's all still left in god's hands and there is a general refusal to take some responsibility for others.

Bah. I'm rambling. Hope some of this made sense and was pertinent to the AA discussion.

hermia

[JulianP]

deleted....

Edited February 9, 2010 by JulianP

[Nightwatch]

deleted by poster

Edited November 24, 2009 by Nightwatch

[Tony J]

Hermia :

"i may as well start by saying i am a drinker. I enjoy my beer and may the higher power help anyone who tries to take it away from me..lol Am i an alchoholic? Probably. You are entitled to call it like you see it, but please make note of the fact that i don't consider it a great problem. I don't drink and drive, i've never found myself in any trouble with regard to drinking. I indulge at home and always with consideration of what responsibiliities i have that a beer or 2 may interfere with. "

Rather than use your pain and confusion to validate my own philosophy, let me share a little on this comment of yours.

This is in line with my suggestion that you put yourself first. Ignore it if it doesn't apply, of course.

You say you're 'probably' an alcoholic and then you describe (justify??) your drinking as moderate. You then said that the AA crowd has classified you as alcoholic.

I find it odd that you seem ambivilant towards your relationship with 'beer' (if you'll excuse the figure of speech).

Since you are in the middle of a family crisis and since (imho) you need to be at the top of your game, maybe you should look into your drinking and decide if you have a problem or not. And even if you don't, should maybe stop or moderate for a while until the crisis passes.

Maybe you could pm one of the moderators and give them some honest info on your drinking and see if you have anything to worry about. You may not. You may just be traumatized from your husband and his friends. AA's should not typicaly tell other people that they are alcoholic. You may drink more than you realize or they may be so fanatical that you've been brow beaten and feel guilty over nothing. Why not get an objective opinion ?

Whatever you do don't stop drinking on my account. I'd still do it if I could get away with it. It just doesn't work for my anymore.

[JustTrying]

Gee! I thought we quit beating this dead horse long ago..... then BAM!

Welcome Tony!

First I am neither pro AA or Anti AA.... I am whatever works for you works..... I have done research into SMART and Rational Recovery... Celebrate Recovery... and Moderation Management. AND More...

I actually like Rational Recovery's method the best. It puts the power in you. I tend to not beleive I am powerless.

That said..... I have been a member of AA for over 15 years and it is very much religeous.... It even mentions GOD in the steps. Not that I have anything against God... because without God i would surely be dead by now.....

As far as was stated in another thread about sponsors telling people to not take meds etc.... and the desperate person who wants so much to belong following that stupid advice.... I have seen that myself.

I myself am Bipolar, and Paranoid Schizophernic, Have PTSD and I think I may have some other things.... buth that is just being paranoid. Pitty the person that tells me not to take my meds. Because If I hurt myself, they will be next.

Thank Goodness that I have a great therapist who actually understands addiction and mental illness...... DUAL DIAGNOSED. I go to AA meetings but I don't really do what they do.... I like being around sober people... but the voices in my head tell me what to do enough.... I don't need a sponsor. LOL! OHHHH Come on! That was funny!

I choose God to be my help... I find that prayer and meditation, taking my meds... reading the Bible and I actuall Like the Basic text Of NA --- prefer it over the Big Book.... the Big Book seems so out dated.

In the Big Book they don't seem to understand that there are many factors in becoming an alcoholic/addict...... Enviroment, Genes, life experiances, how we learn to deal with issues ... all that plays a role...

Will I ever quit drinking????? Don't know. All I know is God has a plan for me annd He and I are trying to find it.... but take it from someone who looked into everything you could find on the net and bought every book.... $100.00s of dollars worth.... Not all programs work for all people... but they do work for some and for that I am glad they all exsist.....

JT

[hermia]

Hi Tony,

Actually, i stated i was a drinker because i thought it only fair that people knew where i was coming from if i was going to post comments about AA. As to alchoholism..it's all in the definition and whose interpretation of that definition we're talking about. I have found that when it's a recovering or reformed alcholic speaking, generally the definition will not include "causing problems in one's life". It's only a matter of whether you do it or do not. How little or how much doesn't come into play.

Am i justifying my use of alchohol? Well ya. When you are dealing with people who who look at you like you're consuming a gift from satan himself because you have a beer or 2 before bed...then hell ya i'm justifying it. Wouldn't you?

I'm not ambivilent about my relationship with beer. I like it. I'm not a teenager. It poses no problems whatsoever in my life other than the fact that alot of the people in my life are in recovery from addiction and tend to want to project their experiences with alchohol on me as well. If i find it causing problems for me...other than how those in recovery tend to view me...then i'll address it and make attempts to solve the problems as i do in any other aspect of my life.

"AA's shouldn't typically tell people they are alchohlics"...Tony, i'm finding alot of people are doing things they shouldn't be. That was really the point of my post with regard to AA.

Thanks for your concern, but i assure you, i'm fine:)

hermia

[David O]

Good morning Hermia,

I'm not ambivilent about my relationship with beer. I like it. I'm not a teenager. It poses no problems whatsoever in my life other than the fact that alot of the people in my life are in recovery from addiction and tend to want to project their experiences with alchohol on me as well. If i find it causing problems for me...other than how those in recovery tend to view me...then i'll address it and make attempts to solve the problems as i do in any other aspect of my life.

I know you've been having great trouble with your son and his addictive behaviors with DMX and (I'm not sure) alcohol. These issues have been so hurtful to your relationship with him and to you alone as you're very deeply saddened with what has become of his life. Even a simple request that he give you his cell phone number just in case of an emergency resulted in a defiant no with some choice words.

I remember visiting a doctor once who knew I had been smoking weed (this was 30+ years ago) at which point he lectured me for 2-3 minutes about the evils of weed, beer and cigarettes. The fascinating part to me was that in his office was an ashtray with a lit cigarette... one he had been smoking just prior to my being seen. His words rang hollow, like the beating of an empty drum, and his advice meant nothing to me as he lost all credibility in this department. While he was right, of course, at my young age I couldn't hear what he said b/c of what I had witnessed.

Is it possible that your nightly drinking may be having a similar effect on him? At his age, what does he see in his mother's words and wisdom? What does he see in her approach to him that could be counter-productive to his own well-being?

Please understand that my intent is not to bring you guilt or shame, it's to point out an inconsistency that may inadvertently be making your message and efforts less effective with him.

David

Edited November 8, 2009 by David O

[Tony J]

Hi Hermia,

I can't imagine a person who has a beer or two in the evening (every evening) being addicted to alcohol. One of the definitions of addiction is that it's progressive.

If your husband and his crew were fanatic about temperance (I do know a few AA's who fit that bill) then he was probably reacting more to the fact that he can't accept it. Maybe he can't accept you drinking socially and him not being able too, or maybe having it around in the house made him squirrley.

Who knows ? I'm one AA who won't brand you (or anyone) who enjoys a few drinks an alcoholic. I need to see signs of abuse and even then I'm not very quick to lable a person. That's just the way I was brought up in AA and my own philosophy.

But I identify with Dave too. An addict will always look for hypocrisy to justify his behavior. Even the appearence of hypocrisy.

That would be the issue to think on. And there is no definite answer. You do have every right to enjoy your beer. Trust me, I'm not judging. I do plenty of things I would rather my kids not do. I'm just putting the basic principal out there since you are in crisis mode. Sometimes extreme rules need to apply.....at least for a while. But you're the boss of your own house. You need to make the decision that will work for you and your family.

Also, I know you need a release. I'm equating your beer drinking with my having my moring coffee. I'd be pissed if I had to give it up. Even if it were to help a family member. Like I said, I'm identifying here, not judging !!

Hi Tony,

Actually, i stated i was a drinker because i thought it only fair that people knew where i was coming from if i was going to post comments about AA. As to alchoholism..it's all in the definition and whose interpretation of that definition we're talking about. I have found that when it's a recovering or reformed alcholic speaking, generally the definition will not include "causing problems in one's life". It's only a matter of whether you do it or do not. How little or how much doesn't come into play.

Am i justifying my use of alchohol? Well ya. When you are dealing with people who who look at you like you're consuming a gift from satan himself because you have a beer or 2 before bed...then hell ya i'm justifying it. Wouldn't you?

I'm not ambivilent about my relationship with beer. I like it. I'm not a teenager. It poses no problems whatsoever in my life other than the fact that alot of the people in my life are in recovery from addiction and tend to want to project their experiences with alchohol on me as well. If i find it causing problems for me...other than how those in recovery tend to view me...then i'll address it and make attempts to solve the problems as i do in any other aspect of my life.

"AA's shouldn't typically tell people they are alchohlics"...Tony, i'm finding alot of people are doing things they shouldn't be. That was really the point of my post with regard to AA.

Thanks for your concern, but i assure you, i'm fine:)

hermia

[hermia]

Hi David... yes of course it's possible that my drinking has an effect on my advice being accepted as valid by my son. I wrestled with that thought for many years. Any parent worth his weight in salt surely has to consider this type of thing. I'm not june cleaver.. i have plenty of little habits that are not so good and i wouldn't recommend others doing. When my son came along i sort of had to form some opinions in my own mind of what examples i felt were important to a child...what do kids have to see in their parents?...and i set about trying to create an atmosphere at home that fostered certain values. You know, all the regular stuff..be kind to others, don't lie, don't cheat and on and on. In all honesty, the example i set was a decent one. I did not come to that conclusion on a whim. I have brutally picked apart my own contribution to my son's behaviors over the years.

Just as an aside...the drinking with my son is a new thing. Not to say he didn't try it early on, but as far as i know it's recent. Initially he started with huffing around age 12/13. For years household items like hairspray, air freshener, and WD/40 were kept in a padlocked cupboard in my home. This moved on to marijuana and then most recently to this DXM stuff.

I suppose this is not the appropriate thread to use to talk about the problem with my son. Sorry about that Ray:)

hermia

[catsirish]

AA showed me my God, and then wanted to become it, I believe in the message but not the messengers not all of them anyway, so i study alone like a hermit. its too stressful out there. AA saved my life and gave me a blueprint for living, but i feel some meetings have moved away from the guidelines, and encourage guilt and co-dependence on the fellowship. so i had to leave, i felt tooo guilty because i was seen as a ''pigeon'' im a grown woman. oh im rantin, sorry

[Guest ASchwartz]

Hi Catsirish,

I don't think you are "ranting" at all. What you describe makes perfect sense.

What do others think about Catsirish posting.

Allan:)

[xenophon]

The post by catsirish is fine. It was certainly not a rant.

I would just make the general point that a person and an organization are not compatible forever. If it is time to go on, one does just that.

[John Rutledge]

Not at all, Catsirish - even I believe I have an idea of what you are getting at; and this is certainly not "ranting". We have had our fair share of ranting around this topic In Here (some of it, to my shame, from me), and I am afraid that you will have to do a lot ... worse than that to qualify as a ranter in this league ... you know I'm just kidding !

Wishing you all the best,

[Guest ASchwartz]

Hi Everyone,

So, what are some of the latest rants these days?

Allan

[JustTrying]

LOL!!!! are you bored Allen????

My latest rant is ..... that people KNOW I do not need to and am trying not to drink..... but they pull up in my yard with beer and ask if I want one..... DUH!!!!! Of course ..... but they can have one.... I can't,,,,,,

JT

I NEED to take my meds right... which I don't when I drink and I NEED to start taking care of myself.... how do you tell a friend of 10 yrs ..... that they are not helping you .... just hurting.... I will be cleaning the house... working on my website and the the Beer Fairy shows up and I am screwed for 2 or 3 days......Don't take my meds... don't do much of anything but drink.... don't tell me to goto rehab.... NOT happening.... unless someone comes to take care of my dogs.

[Guest ASchwartz]

Hi Justtrying,

You have hit upon a major problem for those who no longer drink: How do you deal with people, especially family and friends, when they offer you a drink? This can be difficult because so many of us want to feel accepted and we do not wish to "offend others." I will be writing about this.

Well, first of all, people are not so easily offended as we fear they are.

Second, there is no need to behave offensively when we do not want a drink.

For example, if someone is a good friend, drives up to your house with a bunch of beer and offers it to you, just as you describe, you can tell them, "Sorry, but I no longer drink."

Some people will continue to insist on your having a drink and you have to be presistant. You need to repeat that "I do not drink anymore because it was a problem." If the still continue and tell you that "one will not hurt," you can tell them that "your problem is that one does hurt because you cannot stop."

How do I know?

I will not answer that unless you ask me.

Allan

[Symora]

I agree with Alan, people don't really care that much. I stopped drinking a number of years ago, never had a problem but just was not into it anymore. Most of the time people don't care at all. It is a concern of ours, but they have their own problems I find the problem is mostly that it gets harder and harder to say no everytime they push a little more (my issue has been puffies). At first the conviction is there, but with every further nudge my resolve goes down and I think what the heck, can't really hurt, and then off I go...

I find that just saying no thanks, or yes I'd love a ginger ale, or juice or whatever, steers people in the right direction and off they go... the problem is with me, not with them. Are most of your friends drinkers? I always seem to be able to connect with the pot head in any group ... just feels more comfortable to me but not what I need ...

Salut Symora

Edited December 26, 2009 by Symora
typo

[Guest ASchwartz]

Hi Symora and Justtrying,

I would say, in response to what you posted, Symora, is that the problem is both with each of us and with our friends. Friends have a hard time hearing the word "NO." They want us to conform to the way we used to be. For example, a few years ago, when I lost weight that I needed to use due to blood pressure issues, one friend insisted I eat more even though he knew what the problem was. People become threatened when we change.

Still, its important to not cave in to pressure. That is for two reasons: 1. Each of us knows what is good for our health. Examples, weight loss as with me and not drinking as with many of us. 2. It is important that we be true to ourselves and be the individuals we are without caving in to pressure. I believe we feel worse when we cave because all we are doing is trying to win approval of others rather than sticking to our own individual principles.

Allan

[catsirish]

Thank you all for validating how I feel, especially when I feel up against the ''giants''.....what I know is that I dont know, thats what I know. Anyway, I do sometimes feel like a drink and a smoke, but Jan 17th I will have a year and a half, and I will go and get a chip. No matter how well I get, there is still always a void. a ''whats the meaning of life'' void.

[xenophon]

Well, first of all, there really are no 'giants'. There may be some who think that they may be giants. Self respect and self confidence are quite important though. Having both does not indicate that you think that you are a giant.

Wanting to have a drink and a smoke and actually having one are quite distinct. catsirish, you are not unusual iin that regard.

Finding the meaning of life is not always easy. We all find our own path to that. In the USA, most people just go with the standard versaion of Christianity. It is OK to go down a different path.

[Abbadun]

Hi Allan

You said below

.................AA does not believe in service to God but it does believe in service to other alcoholics who are not as far along in recovery..............

Yet the Big Book says

.......Our real purpose is to fit ourselves to be of maximum service to God and the people about us.......

AB

Hi Ray and Everyone,

"Religion is service to God."

"AA believes in religion."

"AA believes in service to God."

This is called a syllogism. It is an example of Deductive reasoning and it gets us in trouble whenever it is used. For example, Religion or Religions are "service to God." I believe that is correct. AA does believe in religion. I think we can all agree on that. However, the conclusion is not correct. AA does not believe in service to God but it does believe in service to other alcoholics who are not as far along in recovery. I see the service to others as an attempt to help alcoholics fill the emptiness they feel inside.

However, is AA the only way towards recovery? I think we all agree that it is NOT the only way to recovery.

Allan

[Sissagwaad]

i for me agree too, it is not the only way. I have been to many a meeting, in support of a family member who while successful in 'abstaining' for over 4 years, has a lot of emotional immaturity issues, that still continue unresolved.

I personally know some that have been severly addicted and have learned to embrace a conscious life rather than escape from the opportunity to learn to be emotionally mature and accepting all that their life stimulates them with.

AA has its adherants repeatedly acknowledge recognize, accept, they are powerless???Sort of a catch 22isn't it?, copping to the belief that one 'is' powerless. How is it useful, or helpful, to pretend that one 'is' helpless?

Wouldn't it be an improvement to 'speak to oneself,' to indoctrinate oneself, past-tense, rather than enprisoning oneself to being present-tense a helpless, powerless victim? Clearly if one is 'doing something,' taking steps, one no longer is powerless are they? They are in fact 'doing something' which parallels taking action, even if it is to mantra-nize they are not.

[Sissagwaad]

Bear with me while I 'rattle on'

Doesn't the Jewish religion have a saying that 'God helps those that help themselves?'

I never thought, nor believe, that God wants or requires us to pretend to be weak, powereless, etc. As if, only being so, He will love and acknowledge us.

What about the Biblical story of God and the Talents he gives us......What was the response to the one who bragged, look i kept em all, safe, here, burried in the ground? (pretending to be without indeed) hug-fully

[McGowdog]

Accepting the position of powerlessness or the act of surrender, such as the 1st Step implies, does not mean sitting in your closet with your mouth to the keyhole and asking God to stuff the keyhole with food.

It's merely an appeal for help from the Divine... from the realm of the Source... the Architect of Nature... if you will.

Why would some folks in A.A. do this? Because "Just don't drink" didn't work out.

Here... let's consult the book, shall we?

If a mere code of morals or a better philosophy of life were sufficient to overcome alcoholism, many of us would have recovered long ago. But we found that such codes and philosophies did not save us, no matter how much we tried. We could wish to be moral, we could wish to be philosophically comforted, in fact, we could will these things with all our might, but the needed power wasn't there. Our human resources, as marshalled by the will, were not sufficient; they failed utterly.

Lack of power, that was our dilemma. We had to find a power by which we could live, and it had to be a Power greater than ourselves.

So, once you surrender, then point your nose in a direction to just open the door of willingness to appeal to this Power... you're on your way.

Next thing you do after you've cracked that door of willingness open just a smidge... guess what then?

If you said, "Become responsible", you'd be correct.

But no. Y'all anti/XAers don't have the ability to equate proAAers with "taking responsibility" do you? You think the way of God and the spiritual path is for the weak willed. To the contrary, it's quite the opposite.

I go to A.A. and do A.A. to receive and to use Power. That's right. If A.A. didn't provide a sufficient substitute to booze, I'd have quit A.A. long ago. But I have Power. I'm not powerless over booze now.

Edited April 14, 2011 by McGowdog

[Sissagwaad]

hi BB, and a big thank you for your engaging reponse.

Firstly I am not anti AA. Nor do I believe God and the spiritual path is for the weak willed.

I raised into question, the usefulness of mantra-nizing self-talk, that one IS powerless, when you yourself state conflictingly you have come to recognize "But I have Power. I'm not powerless over booze now" (That you have come to recognize God did NOT create you powerless. And to 'cry out' to Him, that you see or envisage yourself as such, is it not the same as being ignorant of the power He endowed you with? as with the Talents?)

I asked, would it not be more accurate, less confusing for one emotionally, as an alternative self-talk to mantra-nize, I recognize i'd become powerless over Alcohol, (or WAS,)(or whatever) I replaced You with it, (as in made it My God) and Establish an attitude of Gratitude for His Presence, that has been and always is available. (if anything remorse for ignoring this gift of power) A presence, that one reconnects with, and seeks the wisdom to remain aware of, one day at a time, thankful for the gifts and the power God has given us, to choose, and to be aware of this gift of freedom, (of choice,) and support that IT (His power) is present, rather than ignoring it idolizing something else, or some other limiting belief?