30-yr-old virgin and regretting it

[kristin]

It is not easy. My loneliness is not as simple as being based on virginity being my only difference from others. The virginity thing is a problem because I used to have boyfriends but our relationships stagnated and the intimacy issue was always a struggle and I am in anguish over how stupid it was of me to hold out for the mythical husband that I will never have, when perhaps I could have had a good solid adult relationship that maybe would have lasted longer than 8 months. Now I am alone and friendless, due to my depression, but my depression stems from my relationships falling apart and not being understood, and that stems from the ridiculous set-up in my childhood of some wonderful "marriage" thing making me a full-grown adult allowed to do full-grown adult things. My other big difference from others is that my city and university are NOT a safe space for even a mention of religion. I used to have religious friends, when I lived somewhere else, who I would be able to talk about my questions with, but I moved away and those friends stopped calling me when they got married and at the same time I became so depressed that there was nothing for me to say on the phone without turning my friends into therapists.

I also second somebody25's statement about dating moving more quickly as adults. When I was younger and dating, we moved slowly-- from friends to boyfriend/girlfriend. Now as no-longer-young-adults, there is so much pressure to go from acquaintance to boyfriend/girlfriend. Compounded with how my virginity means I am inexperienced and uncomfortable with my body, and that means I am terrified of STDs, because I am terrified of doctors poking around inside me, but at my age it is so much more likely my partner would have STDs now than when I was younger and we were both virgins. So I am deeply regretful because it is so much harder now-- I feel that sex is more complicated for two unmarried 30-year-olds than for two unmarried 20-year-olds due to the higher STD risk at this age, so I wish I had gotten in on the game when I and my partner were both virgins. I think if I had connected on that level with one of my previous boyfriends when I was young, I would have gained that comfort with my body and sexuality, without risk of STD with the virgin-boyfriends. Instead, now I am incredibly uncomfortable with my sexuality, at the same time as I am incredibly sexually frustrated.

OK, so what about opportunities for a boyfriend now (so it's not some random guy which is definitely not for me)? Well, it is easy for me to meet people. But, it is not easy on my psyche to meet people. Let me explain: I am not shy. I have many facebook friends, acquaintances, work friends, etc. But my psyche is in pain over all the shreds of relationships past. I can certainly meet new people. But I can't bear to bring people into my life and then throw them away again. That is what it feels like to keep moving every so often, which I have continued to do as a child and a adult. I am graduating this year and then I will most certainly be moving away, since I hate this city. My closest friends just graduated last year and moved away. So all the people dear to me live far away, have stopped calling, even when I call or e-mail and try to get back in touch with them. So yes, I can meet new people, but it is what I have been doing all my life and I just can't take the pain of an endless string of short-term friendships/relationships any more. And this is where the regret comes in-- back when I was younger and had energy and hope for the future, I could handle such pain. Now I can't. I'm in a catch-22 -- I am desperate for intimacy, but wary at the same time due to mourning the past decades of broken friendships/relationships. It is an incredibly complex situation. And I used to be a normal human being.

Lala- I don't know. My therapist and I are kind of stagnating. She keeps suggesting match.com -- but the problem is not meeting people. The problem is the pain inside, the people I already know who have abandoned me, and the people I already know who I have abandoned. What do I do with even more people into my circle? I can't handle the ones already there -- there are too many distant friends, too many nearby acquaintances, but no nearby friends. I am a very loyal person so once I make a friend I don't want to drop them, so I don't take it lightly to meet new people, when I have so many old people who are still important to me. A friend of mine who recently moved away told me she was confused by how I was having so much fun hanging out with her, but then later wasn't able to meet up with her as often. I recently stopped going to church since I am so mad at the Church, and some of the people in 1 church family who I used to help out with their kids have asked me when I'm coming back-- but they don't actually do anything to help me, they just pressure me to come back and help their kids without adding support to my life. So I see friendships and relationships as commitment obligations, so I don't want to cultivate new ones while there are old ones I can barely keep going. "Make new friends, but keep the old, one is silver and the other gold." I just can't handle juggling that many people, or hurting them, or being hurt by them.

[kristin]

I don't know the source of my issues-- the loneliness, the depression, the despair -- basically failing to make it as an adult -- but this article really struck home: An Open Letter to Students on the Danger of Seeing School as a Trial to Survive -- <http://calnewport.com/blog/2010/08/27/an-open-letter-to-students-on-the-danger-of-seeing-school-as-a-trial-to-survive>

I wish I had read that 20 years ago. I think the virginity thing is part of how my entire childhood was a message of "it may be tough now but if you do [blah-blah-blah] then everything will be perfect in the future." So now I'm here, it's the future, I did my homework and I didn't have sex and I was a really good kid and a good student -- so why didn't it work out? So now I wish I had actually lived my life, which is where the virginity comes in because it's not something I enjoyed maintaining, it was all because I was an obedient girl hoping to get the prize if I followed the rules, and the husband part didn't happen and I'm frustrated. And that article I just read is a new perspective on this issue:

In other words, when you go through life thinking “if I can make it through this, things will be better later,” you eventually forget what “better” means.

--That's what happened to me-- now I feel lost, alone, sad, and am really seeking to make it out of this pit of despair but just feeling so much regret for how great I had it when I was younger and how I threw that away.

Thanks for giving me a space to process these issues.

[LaLa]

Dear kristin,

I understand ... Thank you for your posts (and for the article - I'm afraid of reading it, it will surely tell me some unpleasant truths about myself... (but I surely will!)). I'm so sorry I don't know how to help you; I don't have any advise... I hope you can soon overcome the stagnation period in your therapy, as your therapist is the one who knows you the most and is, hopefuly, skilful enought to support you the most, too...

You said you'll move from the current city quite soon. Maybe that will be the best opportunity to a new, better, beginning. Right now it would be probably not "the best" (-don't know how to say it) to "make new friends" - I agree with you...

So now I stop here as I don't know what to add

Take care!

[shye1]

Hey Kristin, when Im in a depression phase, I try to remember that it will pass. Just like my happy moments, emotions are always in a back and forth cycle. I also try to do little things every day that give me enjoyment, like going on nature walks, listening to music, shopping, reading, being with friends, whatever it may be that I'm interested in. Sometimes a little distraction doesn't hurt. But you got to stop living in the past. I know you may have big regrets there, but what good is it doing for you now recycling those thoughts in your mind? Maybe try visualizing the life you want to live, its amazing what visualizing can do. Think about where you might want to move to when you're studying is over, what you want your new place to look like, what kind of jobs you might want to pursue. Think about things that are exciting. Also, write a list of all the things you're grateful for. A lot of happiness comes from just being grateful for the little things. The smell of a flower, the view of the ocean, a really great song. When I really think life sucks, I remember at least I have my health. At least I can walk and was born with all limbs in place. At least I live in a free country where I'm not constantly afraid of being bombed or shot. At least I have food on the table. At least I'm able to study what I'm actually interested in. At least I have the option to choose who I am in a relationship with. At least my social anxiety isn't debilitating as it once was. All of a sudden I realise, wow it could be a lot worse. I just have intimacy issues. Yes, that's a big problem for me but in the grand scheme of things, is it really worth all the agony? Does it really mean I shouldn't live my life, just because I have fears? We have so much more opportunity than 90% of the world, to live the life we want and the only thing holding us back is OURSELVES. Recognise fear it for what it is: fear. That's it! Accept that you have it, let it be there if it has to but keep pushing on with your life. I promise it will get better. And when it does, it will be that much more beautiful because of what you've been through.

If you're interested, I read 2 really amazing books called A New Earth, or The Power of Now, by Eckhart Tolle, that might be able to help you. His words have helped me push through some dark times and I always come back to it.

[kristin]

Hey everyone! Thanks for your thoughtful posts! It's good just to be heard, Lala, even if there's no advice! And thanks for the inspiration about how you deal with your depressive thoughts, Shye. Nothing has really changed for me. I've been off the site for a while because I go through phases and I was focusing on other stuff. Best wishes!

[kristin]

Wow, I love that this blog post perfectly describes my condition:

"Is Abstinence More Dangerous Than Sex?"

http://open.salon.com/blog/travis_darby/2009/05/05/involuntary_celibacy_adult_virginity_the_silent_killers

I wish I could show it to my mom 30 years ago when the inculcation began!

Or to myself 10 years ago when I still wasn't thinking for myself!

[kristin]

Another fruit of my googling skills:

"Instead, these are individuals who deeply desire a sexual relationship, who feel left behind by their age peers, and who are truly troubled by their lack of sexual intimacy...In conclusion, until the phenomenon of involuntary celibacy has been fully investigated and the results disseminated, it will remain a taboo topic, cloaked in mystery and ignorance, and untold numbers of persons will continue to suffer in silence and isolation."

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m2372/is_2_38/ai_79439406/

"Involuntary Celibacy: A Life Course Analysis - Statistical Data Included"

Journal of Sex Research, May, 2001 by Denise Donnelly, Elisabeth Burgess, Sally Anderson, Regina Davis, Joy Dillard

--that is from a scholarly article about involuntary celibacy ("incel") that was so amazing to read! (I found the link from the Incel support forum http://incel.myonlineplace.org/forum/).

Being able to talk it out here, hearing the feedback from the community, and reading these articles are making me feel better. I feel listened to, heard, and validated. That is so important! My problem is still here but it's amazing how often validation and acceptance is such a big piece of the puzzle! Thanks, everyone!

-Kristin

P.S. OK, that's enough e-crack for me, good night!

[Rapha]

Hi Kristin,

I've read all the posts with great interest. Like you I grew up in a church-going family but never had the abstinence "inculcation" from my parents. I'm the youngest and all my numerous siblings have good marriages, though, and while I was never explicity told to wait, somehow I knew that this was the "right" thing to do. So I was never interested in going very far when I was a teenager. This slowly changed in college as I developed a relationship with a lovely young woman a year my younger. We had dated briefly in HS until she scared me one night. As we were making out, she told me she wanted to make love. This was not a thought I had had before, and I got pretty weirded out by her bold comment, so I quickly ended the relationship.

We started dating again in college though, and slowly over the course of the three-plus years that we saw each other, I lowered the boundaries until at the very end we did it a few times. Shortly thereafter she broke off the relationship, stunning me in the process.

Others may disagree with me, but I recommend you be very selective about with whom and when you choose to lose your virginity. There's a reason it's called "losing" — you lose something you can never recover... on your own. (I probably sound "parental" now, and now you won't be able hear anything else I say from this point on! I hope this isn't the case!)

Again this is my opinion, but when you first go all the way, I think you lose more than just a tight vagina (will lose) or freedom from STDs (may lose). You may lose part of your heart. You connect with your partner in a way that is significantly different than from just fooling around, mutual masturbation, etc. Face to face (usually), body to body, body inside body, and spirit to spirit — a connection takes place during intercourse that I think bonds not only your body to your partner's but your heart as well. This spiritual connection is pretty impossible to describe to someone who has never experienced it. Should the relationship end — the excitement goes, the friendship fizzles and a piece of your heart is torn away — the pain felt is equally as impossible to describe.

This shouldn't necessarily discourage you. But it may help you gain insight into how you may feel after you've lost it.

[Rapha]

It is not easy. My loneliness is not as simple as being based on virginity being my only difference from others. The virginity thing is a problem because I used to have boyfriends but our relationships stagnated and the intimacy issue was always a struggle and I am in anguish over how stupid it was of me to hold out for the mythical husband that I will never have, when perhaps I could have had a good solid adult relationship that maybe would have lasted longer than 8 months.

Just wrote you a lovely post and lost it. Aargh! I'll try again.

I hope I wasn't too negative in my first post. I can totally relate to you on both the loneliness front and the depression front because I suffer from both myself. I've been in a 25-year battle with depression. And depression usually makes loneliness worse for a variety of reasons.

It's completely normal that you would regret not having consummated the relationship with an earlier boyfriend. Things might have been different. You might have stuck together longer and perhaps even married. You might even have had children at this point and a beautiful home you could call your own. At the very least you'd have the physical experience to remember and you wouldn't have this growing anxiety over intimacy. OR... you might have not married him but had a kid or two with him anyway, been abused physically, cheated on or simply abandoned, and ended up stuck with children, no husband/father and a very difficult future. You'd still have the physical experience to remember here, too, resulting in future extreme anxiety about both physical and emotional intimacy with men. So you never know...

Now I am alone and friendless, due to my depression, but my depression stems from my relationships falling apart and not being understood, and that stems from the ridiculous set-up in my childhood of some wonderful "marriage" thing making me a full-grown adult allowed to do full-grown adult things.

By the way, I don't think your parents did you a service AT ALL by telling you to "tough it out now" [in a previous post] so that things will be better or perfect in the future. This is again my opinion, but my understanding of God is that God always has our best interests at heart, not just for some fairy tale time in the future but in the "here and now" as well. While it may feel like you've been deprived or have "missed out" by not having had full-blown intercourse yet, in many ways you have likely been spared from a whole array of problems, some quite serious. You don't have the "heart torn out" issue that spiraled me down into depression so hard. You don't have any STDs. You didn't end up marrying your boyfriend when you were 22 because he got you pregnant. You didn't end up changing your future plans because you had a baby when you were 23. Alternately you didn't end up having trouble taking future pregnancies to full term or even getting pregnant again because of a botched abortion. As I see it, these are some of the beautiful-but-rarely-talked-about benefits of living in a way that honors the character of God. Another benefit is that you won't have the "Ghosts of Partners Past" in your heart and mind should you someday end up marrying.

I realize that knowing these things sometimes does little or nothing to take the pain of loneliness and depression away. Sometimes we just want someone close to us to be able to share with, someone we know won't leave us or that we won't be leaving in a year. Someone that will love us despite all of our flaws and hang ups.

Regarding an earlier post of yours, I wouldn't worry too much about being inexperienced and uncomfortable with your body. Every person is born inexperienced and uncomfortable at first! You've had some experience, and if humans have been figuring this stuff out for thousands or zillions of years, depending upon your world view, I doubt you'll have too much trouble. So relax.

My other big difference from others is that my city and university are NOT a safe space for even a mention of religion. I used to have religious friends, when I lived somewhere else, who I would be able to talk about my questions with, but I moved away and those friends stopped calling me when they got married and at the same time I became so depressed that there was nothing for me to say on the phone without turning my friends into therapists.

Kristin, I REALLY feel for you when it comes to feeling spiritually alone. When it comes to religion, the modern American university is often extremely closed-minded. For some reason, many in higher education seem to feel threatened by the person who maintains faith in a Higher Power. I have my theories as to why this is, but I won't go into them here.

It's quite easy for anyone to poke fun at another's religion, but to the person being poked at, it can feel like your very personhood is being challenged. In most cases, it's not. Many times people are ignorant of another's religion or what it means to her. They may view religion as blind obedience or turning off your mind or belief in the unbelievable. Many people see religion and science, or religion and progress, as diametrically opposed. Their attitudes reflect their personal beliefs. But the truth is that science/progress and religion are not mutually exclusive (at least not the religion that best explains to me the world as I know it).

Probably my best advice to you here is to focus on creating a dialog. Rather than feeling threatened, try to find out where someone is coming from. Ask what a person believes and why she believes it. Most people love to talk about themselves and will gladly let you in at least a little on what makes them tick. It may challenge your thinking as well. But that's okay. Without challenges, we would never grow.

I look forward to hearing how you continue to grow and change as you wrestle with depression, loneliness, your sexuality, your faith and your future.

And remember, everyone taking the time to read your posts and respond in a thoughtful manner cares about you, even if some of our advice may conflict. We all want you to heal and blossom.

--- Rapha

[kristin]

OOPS! This is a reply to Rapha's message #33! As soon as I posted the reply, I saw that Rapha has also written #34, so now I'm going to read that one and see if I have a different reply!

Thanks for your thoughtful and straight-forward message, Rapha! Thank you for helping shed the light on how it will feel emotionally. I appreciate your concern! I am not a risk-taker and am actually very terrified of STDs, so there are no worries that I am looking for a one-night stand or a random guy. Which is what makes it all the harder to find someone.

I wonder, does the loss of a part of yourself feel any different than all the other losses I've had in my life? I've moved a lot and each time I move I learn that all my previous friendships and relationships were based primarily on proximity. Which makes sense on some level, except I was hoping someday to be loved even from afar.

When I move there is a drastic shift and suddenly the people who were the biggest players in my life are gone, and I learn that connections are like wi-fi, fading to nothing at a distance. Even my best friend who I was so close to for so long is not particularly interested in connecting with me anymore. I saw her when I went home last month and she only stayed to talk for 10 minutes and that was it.

I am really hurting today because my mentor at work who I look up to and trust just dropped a bomb on me, that I won't be part of the multi-campus team and I cannot continue to collaborate with him when I graduate and move away. It's not so much that I absolutely have to work on that particular project, but I've really enjoyed working with him over the years. He has been a father-figure in my life throughout grad school. He is one of the few people here who seems to care how I'm doing, and he's the ONLY good connection I've maintained for the whole 6 years. So that was quite a rejection, to find out I'll be summarily dropped.

I mean, with so much pain and loss in my life, would I even notice if I lose another part of myself? Wouldn't that anyways be better than never experiencing love?

At the same time, I hear your warning and I appreciate it. I will consider it.

[Rapha]

Wow, I love that this blog post perfectly describes my condition:

"Is Abstinence More Dangerous Than Sex?"

http://open.salon.com/blog/travis_darby/2009/05/05/involuntary_celibacy_adult_virginity_the_silent_killers

I wish I could show it to my mom 30 years ago when the inculcation began!

Or to myself 10 years ago when I still wasn't thinking for myself!

I'm curious as to people's opinions about Maslow's hierarchy. Do you see sex as a foundational human need in the way air, water, food, shelter and sleep are?

[kristin]

Hi Rapha, thanks for your other posts too! That long one is well-thought-out and considerate too! I appreciate your point that wishing things were different in the past is pointless because they could have been better or they could have been worse.

I have heard the idea that God does what's best for us a lot. I used to be able to convince myself to believe it, but I've been unbelievably miserable for so long because of religion. The reason I see it as a set-up is because I hate my life so much that even if I believe in God, I hate Him and have no thanks for giving me life. So if I believe in God, then I'm going to Hell anyway. It would have been better to have sex and to be a normally-developed adult than to get this miserably alone and to feel so wounded by God, from a religious standpoint. We are social animals, and I tried to do God's will, which has cut me off from my contemporaries, which is not how we are meant to live. No, it might not be moral to have one-night stands, but I really don't believe the message any more to save sex for marriage- I think I could have had sex in a monogamous relationship and been in a better standing with God than I am now. I've been wanting sex for half my life! And I made a superhuman effort to not have sex, when I had the opportunity- and the problem with a superhuman effort is that, if there's no relief, it just kills your spirit. It's like when I have a big deadline at work, and I make a huge push to get it done- I get the project done, but then I am so dead I have to crash for the whole weekend. Well, that's my life now- I made this superhuman effort for a decade, and now that nothing has come of it, I can't even muster up the spirit to enjoy life or date guys or anything. God has crushed my spirit.

Why did I even make this superhuman effort anyway? If it was really that hard, why didn't I give in? Because of the horrible, horrible, message I received throughout my childhood. OK, I wasn't going to say my exact religion, because I didn't want people to hate on it any more than they already do, but I'm Catholic. And here's what I learned at home and at church for 20 years: There are 2 kinds of sin, Mortal and Venial. Venial sins are the every-day kind of sin, like lying or stealing. You should confess these at Reconcilliation, but even if you don't, it might be forgiven. Mortal sins, on the other hand, are the worst things you can do to separate yourself from God. The only two examples we were given were: (1) murder and (2) fornication. That's right, I was taught that pre-marital sex is as bad as murder. If you commit a Mortal sin and do not confess it, you are absolutely not going to Heaven. If you do confess it, it might be okay, but it will take a lot of work to repair your relationship with God. So this is the strong message I got, which really f*##*d me up for dealing with the modern world in which everyone but me is having sex.

So I am supposed to somehow, by the Spirit and Grace of God, make it from puberty to marriage without intimacey. And I tried. I really tried. But what did that effort do to me? Even though it didn't kill me, it has not made me stronger. It has destroyed my hope, my spirit, my relationships, my sense of belonging, my place in this world. Why would God want to do that to me? Either that message was not His message, or He's a jerk, or He doesn't exist, or who knows what. But something is not right here.

Sorry, this is a very passionate reply! I'm not mad at Rapha or anyone else! Just I feel very passionate and hurt about this!

In fact, I love my parents, and I still want to remain connected to my religion at least for the common thread in my life and between me and my extended family. So it is hard to write all this, because I know for someone else, as an outsider, it always looks 100% horrible, but for myself, as an insider in my life, I still have to love my family and my mom and know she meant the best and she really believed it and, hey, that message worked just fine for her back in the 1950s.

I look forward to hearing how you continue to grow and change as you wrestle with depression, loneliness, your sexuality, your faith and your future.

And remember, everyone taking the time to read your posts and respond in a thoughtful manner cares about you, even if some of our advice may conflict. We all want you to heal and blossom.

Thanks so much, Rapha! I really appreciate your concern, your listening, and your looking out for me!

[Rapha]

I wonder, does the loss of a part of yourself feel any different than all the other losses I've had in my life? I've moved a lot and each time I move I learn that all my previous friendships and relationships were based primarily on proximity. Which makes sense on some level, except I was hoping someday to be loved even from afar.

I think it is deeper, but my relationship with my ex-girlfrend was the only long-term relationship I ever had with a woman prior to meeting my wife some years later. It's hard to say how much different it would have been if we hadn't gone the distance, but I know my decision to let down the barriers came after over two years of caution and was based partly on the fact that I had grown very fond of her. I trusted her. And there's no doubt that being intimate with someone you care about and trust is not only meaningful but fun, too. Yes, I really did just say that!

But it just hurts that much more when feelings change and you get ditched. Not only is there the pain of losing a friend, but it's almost like losing a part of yourself. Still, I don't want to make it out to be a complete and total disaster. Life will go on. I just wasn't prepared for the sense of loss because I never imagined that we would go our separate ways.

When I move there is a drastic shift and suddenly the people who were the biggest players in my life are gone, and I learn that connections are like wi-fi, fading to nothing at a distance. Even my best friend who I was so close to for so long is not particularly interested in connecting with me anymore. I saw her when I went home last month and she only stayed to talk for 10 minutes and that was it.

This may discourage you, but I've been an island my whole life until I became so severely depressed last October that I finally opened up to a different kind of friend than I've ever had before. I have two guys in my life now that I can tell anything to — my doubts, fears, "sins", etc. — and they'll still love me. One is a great listener who says little but always comes up with great nuggets. The other does most of the talking because he has a lot of great advice that I need to hear over and over again until I finally "get it". (Repetition aids learning!) With all my previous friends, I've always put on the good face, the happy face, no matter how much turmoil or struggle was going on inside of me. It feels good to finally be "real". Hopefully you're experiencing some of that on this forum as you are being real.

My prayer for you (I hope you don't mind me praying for you) is that one or two women will come into your life that can listen compassionately, love unconditionally and speak truth and love into your heart and mind. I believe it's better for this to come from a woman than a man because of the romantic feelings that can develop between a man and woman when sharing on such an intimate level. This wouldn't preclude you from having a relationship with a man at the same time. And of course the sex is up to you... you're an adult. But the reality is, you need some girl friends, too. No guy is ever going to be the be-all and end-all of your life that makes close friendships with others unnecessary.

Oh, I just want you to have instant close friends!!! Be patient, and if someone shows an interest in you that seems mature enough to actually help you in some fashion, don't be afraid to try building the friendship. If you choose your friends carefully, they can be a big part of your healing. And you will help them, too, in ways you may never know. When you move, you'll have to start over most likely. Like it or not, we're very much an out of sight, out of mind society these days. Don't despair. Just realize that friends come and go and make the best of the situation. I'm the same way. I don't like change and I hurt every time there's a significant change in my life.

Finally,

I am really hurting today because my mentor at work who I look up to and trust just dropped a bomb on me, that I won't be part of the multi-campus team and I cannot continue to collaborate with him when I graduate and move away. It's not so much that I absolutely have to work on that particular project, but I've really enjoyed working with him over the years. He has been a father-figure in my life throughout grad school. He is one of the few people here who seems to care how I'm doing, and he's the ONLY good connection I've maintained for the whole 6 years. So that was quite a rejection, to find out I'll be summarily dropped.

I mean, with so much pain and loss in my life, would I even notice if I lose another part of myself? Wouldn't that anyways be better than never experiencing love?

I'm so sorry about all the pain and loss, Kristin. Of course you'll notice. You may grow more numb the more it happens, but you'll notice. Would it be "better than never experiencing love?" Well, before I tackle that one, let me ask you a couple questions. Do you mean "better than never experiencing sex?" Are you equating experiencing sex with experiencing love? I'll wait for your response.

[kristin]

Are you equating experiencing sex with experiencing love?

Hi Rapha- I'm kind of confused myself about what exactly is the issue here. While I don't think that sex==love and love==sex in a one-night-stand kind of way, there is some connection in my mind, along some path between the two, because I was thinking of back in the day when I had a string of boyfriends, who I did love (I thought), and I was thinking maybe physical intimacy would have enhanced the emotional intimacy. Without ever expressing our love in that way, the relationships stagnated and died. (Now, out of desparation, I've much lowered my standards and might consider sex with someone I respect and trust. But not back in the day. Back in the day, the path was love to marriage to sex. So they are definitely related and there is definitely a path, but they are not equivalent.)

[kristin]

My prayer for you (I hope you don't mind me praying for you)...

No, I don't mind- I appreciate it, thank you!

[Rapha]

Hi Rapha, thanks for your other posts too! That long one is well-thought-out and considerate too! I appreciate your point that wishing things were different in the past is pointless because they could have been better or they could have been worse.

I have heard the idea that God does what's best for us a lot. I used to be able to convince myself to believe it, but I've been unbelievably miserable for so long because of religion. The reason I see it as a set-up is because I hate my life so much that even if I believe in God, I hate Him and have no thanks for giving me life. So if I believe in God, then I'm going to Hell anyway. It would have been better to have sex and to be a normally-developed adult than to get this miserably alone and to feel so wounded by God, from a religious standpoint. We are social animals, and I tried to do God's will, which has cut me off from my contemporaries, which is not how we are meant to live. No, it might not be moral to have one-night stands, but I really don't believe the message any more to save sex for marriage- I think I could have had sex in a monogamous relationship and been in a better standing with God than I am now. I've been wanting sex for half my life! And I made a superhuman effort to not have sex, when I had the opportunity- and the problem with a superhuman effort is that, if there's no relief, it just kills your spirit. It's like when I have a big deadline at work, and I make a huge push to get it done- I get the project done, but then I am so dead I have to crash for the whole weekend. Well, that's my life now- I made this superhuman effort for a decade, and now that nothing has come of it, I can't even muster up the spirit to enjoy life or date guys or anything. God has crushed my spirit.

Why did I even make this superhuman effort anyway? If it was really that hard, why didn't I give in? Because of the horrible, horrible, message I received throughout my childhood. OK, I wasn't going to say my exact religion, because I didn't want people to hate on it any more than they already do, but I'm Catholic. And here's what I learned at home and at church for 20 years: There are 2 kinds of sin, Mortal and Venial. Venial sins are the every-day kind of sin, like lying or stealing. You should confess these at Reconcilliation, but even if you don't, it might be forgiven. Mortal sins, on the other hand, are the worst things you can do to separate yourself from God. The only two examples we were given were: (1) murder and (2) fornication. That's right, I was taught that pre-marital sex is as bad as murder. If you commit a Mortal sin and do not confess it, you are absolutely not going to Heaven. If you do confess it, it might be okay, but it will take a lot of work to repair your relationship with God. So this is the strong message I got, which really f*##*d me up for dealing with the modern world in which everyone but me is having sex.

So I am supposed to somehow, by the Spirit and Grace of God, make it from puberty to marriage without intimacey. And I tried. I really tried. But what did that effort do to me? Even though it didn't kill me, it has not made me stronger. It has destroyed my hope, my spirit, my relationships, my sense of belonging, my place in this world. Why would God want to do that to me? Either that message was not His message, or He's a jerk, or He doesn't exist, or who knows what. But something is not right here.

Sorry, this is a very passionate reply! I'm not mad at Rapha or anyone else! Just I feel very passionate and hurt about this!

In fact, I love my parents, and I still want to remain connected to my religion at least for the common thread in my life and between me and my extended family. So it is hard to write all this, because I know for someone else, as an outsider, it always looks 100% horrible, but for myself, as an insider in my life, I still have to love my family and my mom and know she meant the best and she really believed it and, hey, that message worked just fine for her back in the 1950s.

Thanks so much, Rapha! I really appreciate your concern, your listening, and your looking out for me!

Hi Kristin,

Thanks for all the details about your spiritual background. It really helps to know where you're coming from. I'll never judge you because I've made too many mistakes in my own life to judge anyone else. You're being totally honest with yourself, with us and with God here, and that's good, Kristin. There is so much truth in your post that I hardly know where to begin. There are also a few statements that concern me.

I've been cautious in the forums not to reveal my exact spiritual leanings because I don't want to put up red flags for anyone, but if you'd like to know more specifically where I'm coming from, I'd be happy to fill you in. Just PM (private message) me and I'll give you my background. (It's not far from yours.)

Okay, I see you just posted again, so I'll try to incorporate your comments about love to marriage to sex vs. sex before marriage in my response. Actually I'm gonna post this now, then dig in on my response in my next post.

--- Rapha

[Rapha]

Okay, Kristin, here goes!

"I have heard the idea that God does what's best for us a lot."

There's a difference between what I said, that "God always has our best interests at heart", and the idea you mentioned that "God does what's best for us". God may have our best interests at heart, but He is never manipulative about this and He doesn't live our lives for us. He gives us the freedom to live our lives the way we choose. What would love be if we were forced to love as a matter of duty rather than by our own free will?

I hate my life so much that even if I believe in God, I hate Him and have no thanks for giving me life.

I've been there. This year, as a matter of fact, I have despaired deeply and felt completely abandoned by God. The truth is that we're important to God, even when we feel like He has totally betrayed us by giving us a life that totally sucks. I'm not sure that this gives you any comfort at all. But it is the truth. He does care.

As to hating Him, it's not abnormal to feel hate for and ingratitude toward God. And it is certainly not an unforgiveable sin. God can take it. There's even a passage in the Catholic Bible that talks about it being better to be hot or cold regarding God rather than lukewarm. I think I understand what that passage is getting at. If you're angry at God, you're at least engaging Him and care about Him in some way. I've even heard some say that the opposite of love is not hate, it's indifference. The Psalms of the Bible contain many songs of sadness, lament and even anger at God. If it's good enough for the writers of the Bible, it's good enough for me. ("Look, mommy, I can be angry at God just like King David!":D)

What about denying God or not being sure if you believe or not? Again, your own Bible tells the story of the apostle Peter (recognized by the Catholic church to be the first Pope) denying three times that he even knew Jesus. But Jesus didn't stop loving Peter because of this. Not at all! He ended up affirming Peter, who went on to help change the world because of the love Jesus showed him. So if you're feeling guilt over your anger toward or lack of belief in God, don't feel that way. He can handle it. And He still cares about you. He knows our struggles and can relate to the pain we feel.

Kristin, do you think that if you believe in God but hate Him that you will go to hell? Or maybe a better question for you would be, how do you believe God decides who's going to heaven and who's going to hell?

It would have been better to have sex and to be a normally-developed adult than to get this miserably alone and to feel so wounded by God, from a religious standpoint.

Having sex does not make you a normally-developed adult any more than does getting drunk. Both are done by eleven- and twelve-year olds these days, but that doesn't make them adults. Sure, you'll fit in with the crowd better and perhaps keep a relationship going that would otherwise die. Only you can say whether it's worth a values-shift for you. Your values are being challenged because of your real-world experiences as an adult. I know the alone part and I can totally see why you would blame your miserable loneliness on God and your parents.

I've been wanting sex for half my life!

Wow, another honest statement. Good that you know yourself. I can't speak as an Incel could on this, so I'll leave this one for someone else.

We are social animals, and I tried to do God's will, which has cut me off from my contemporaries, which is not how we are meant to live.

It sounds to me as though you've been trying to live a God-honoring life for a long time based upon the values instilled in you by your parents. But you've been doing it all by yourself. You're right that we really are social and are made to live in community. (I'll leave the "animals" part for others to discuss!) And there is no doubt that trying to find a community of twenty- to thirty-year olds or so that want to honor God and one another by setting some kind of boundaries when it comes to sex is like looking for a needle in a haystack. Plus, with the glorification of sex in the media and among the culture in general, someone on the outside looking in is bound to feel left out. Life, however, is more than sex. It just doesn't seem that way sometimes! You can begin a relationship and it can develop considerably without sex being an integral part.

Most people just want to find someone that will love them for who they really are, warts and all. And that comes from getting to know one another over a period of time. Delaying sex for a time can allow the couple to focus on the other person rather than themselves and their own physical desires. But it's not easy, as you know! There's always going to be that God-given desire (yes, God-given) to consummate the relationship. Sex itself is not a bad thing! After all, it was created by God! I can see, too, how the older you get, the stronger that desire could become. In others, it may lessen.

And I made a superhuman effort to not have sex, when I had the opportunity- and the problem with a superhuman effort is that, if there's no relief, it just kills your spirit. It's like when I have a big deadline at work, and I make a huge push to get it done- I get the project done, but then I am so dead I have to crash for the whole weekend. Well, that's my life now- I made this superhuman effort for a decade, and now that nothing has come of it, I can't even muster up the spirit to enjoy life or date guys or anything. God has crushed my spirit.

Sometimes we as parents have so much of the "don't touch the stove or you'll get burned" mentality (especially with our girls) that we forget to teach our children how to "cook" or "bake". We know your parents warned you about premarital relations. But how much did they talk to you about choosing whether to date someone or not? Did they ever coach you in how to build a healthy relationship with a man? Did they ever help you think through your own values regarding whether any of the young men you dated might be husband material or not? Have you ever talked freely with either or both about the sexual experiences you've already had? We may not agree with everything our parents teach us, but if they're involved as we grow from child to adult, it can go a long way toward getting us to adulthood.

We need to know the stove is hot. We need to know how the stove can be wonderful with proper use. But we especially need to discover what we like, how to make our list, where to shop for the best ingredients, and how to put it all together so that in the end the stove will bake up something really delicious instead of something tasteless or even repulsive. We also need to know that there's no guarantee in life that we'll even have our own stove, so instruction on how to live healthily from microwave meals or dining out is in order, too. This is where many of our religious institutions fall down. They give lip service to virginity, celibacy and singleness as a lifestyle but that's about all. With the exploding number of singles in their twenties and even thirties, religious institutions risk becoming more and more irrelevant as they fail to address the needs and issues of singles.

I'll close by telling you of my personal experience after my college sweetheart broke my heart. For several years I engaged in self-destructive behavior until I was exhausted, in great pain and deep depression. Eventually I met a girl locally that I became friends with but really had no interest in dating. Maybe I was still gun shy. So that didn't go anywhere. Soon after I met a girl from Japan that I liked and I think she was in love with me. If I'd have asked her, I think she would have married me and moved to the U.S. But we hardly knew each other, and I knew we didn't share the same core values spiritually. And that was important to me. So I let that relationship go.

Eventually, I moved from the midwest to the east coast and met the woman who would one day become my wife. Everything was a good fit, and the hardest part for us was the fact that she had just come off of a very serious relationship that ended simply because he didn't want children and she couldn't absolutely say no to ever having children. We had to keep pulling our relationship back from going too fast so she would have time to process and heal from the pain of that broken relationship.

Once we really started dating, we would kiss and hug. But I would absolutely not go any further and she knew it. I had learned my lesson. The stove had burned me once and I operated with more respect around it this time. I really didn't want to give myself away to another person only to find that she would leave me high and dry. It also helped to know that she shared the same spiritual convictions as I about waiting until marriage to consummate. So by drawing clear boundaries, it helped both of us live as we desired. And it gave us something to look forward to on our wedding night!

Maybe I'm a little unusual for a guy, but guys have hearts, too. Not every man is a testosterone-juiced, football-watching, beer-drinking, insensitive slob, despite what the TV commercials would have you believe!

Peace...

--- Rapha

[Guest ASchwartz]

Hi Kristin,

I am playing "catch up" here so, I wonder if you have tried to reverse your life long effort to not have sex. Leaving religion to the side, psychologically and physiologically, it is healthy for adults to have sex. Without it depression sets in rather quickly.

What is happening in your life now?

Allan

[IrmaJean]

Please be respectful of the feelings/beliefs of others, Skynight.

I was thinking about what Dr. Schwartz wrote, and I don't think it applies to everyone. All of us have different needs and desires. If given the choice between being held or having sexual relations, I'd choose to be held without hesitation. It isn't the act itself that fills a need for me, it's the intimacy of the act. I need the closeness, the rest is gravy. So, yes, I would probably wither without intimacy, but I don't need the act itself to be happy. That is just me, though, and undoubtedly everyone has their own individual needs in this.

How have things been going for you of late, Skynight?

[somebody25]

I'm not wasting my life away because I'm not having sex. Jeez. And Kristen could be working for the Make a Wish foundation for all you guys know.

Sometimes I wish I was catholic so I could become a nun. I bet mother Teresa didn't hear crap like that all the time.

[Rapha]

All you people holding back from sex due to religion are wasting your life away.

Are they "holding back" from sex, or are you "holding back" from celibacy?

What about those who are "holding back" due not to religion but to something else? Do you believe they are wasting their lives away? Why or why not?

I'm curious to hear your thoughts.

--- Rapha

[IrmaJean]

I'm glad things have been going fine for you, Skynight. I'm sure you didn't mean any disrespect. I had wanted to point out that when expressing an opinion... others may well feel differently. This is okay. Everyone is individual and has their own personal beliefs.

I realize that you and I are opposite on this front. That was the point I was making, that everyone has different needs.

As Dr. Schwartz inquired, how are things in your life now, Kristin?

[Rapha]

I understand some people don't care for sex. If so then that's their choice. I don't have sex often myself because I can't be motivated enough to get it. That's different to someone who wants sex but doesn't do it because they want for it to be with someone special or because they fear the wrath of god if they have sex before marriage.

I'm not sure I see any difference, at least from the motivational standpoint. The latter wants sex, but just like you they're not "motivated enough to get it". That is, something else (their desire to remain pure until married) trumps they're desire to have sex, just as with you something else (your desire to be lazy) trumps your desire to have sex. Or to look at it another way, their desire to remain pure supersedes their desire to have sex, just as your desire to be lazy supersedes your desire to have sex.

There may be an experiential difference, of course. Usually your laziness overcomes your sex drive, but occasionally your laziness is simply overcome by your sex drive. For many who desire to remain pure this happens as well... they remain pure until that desire is overcome by their sex drive and they have sex. For others however, the desire to remain pure always overcomes their sex drive and they are able to wait. The latter two scenarios play themselves out every single day whether there is a religious reason for waiting or simply a personal reason - some are able to wait while others aren't.

Like I said before, I doubt if there's a god he/she would care who you have sex with. Repressing and holding back from sex is unhealthy. That's different to someone who's asexual or traumatised through rape. Then obviously the latter needs help.

If you don't like sex or don't care for it that's one thing, but if you're holding back because of religion then all you're doing is letting your life slip away.

But it's the person's choice. It isn't bothering me so people can believe or do as they wish.

If there is a god, why wouldn't he care? Just curious...

I'm also curious about the idea that "repressing and holding back from sex is unhealthy". I know Dr. Schwartz has commented that he believes it is unhealthy for an adult to not be having sex. Are you aware of any scientific evidence that would support or refute such a position?

I'm curious to hear what others think on this as well. To me, sex is a wonderful and amazing thing, but I can also see many unhealthy things that result from it too, things like unwed mothers left to fend for themselves, disappearing "fathers", STDs, injurious/fatal abortions, etc.

Finally, I work with a number of people who are not young but who are virgins due to their religion. Most of them will probably remain that way by choice for the rest of their lives. Do I understand you correctly that you believe one indicator of living a life of significance (versus letting your life "slip away") is whether you've held back from sex because of religion or not?

Peace,

--- Rapha

[Rapha]

Kristin, what's up???

[IrmaJean]

My personal feeling (and I respect all opinions on this) is that sex can be a beautiful expression of love. I view it as very healthy within the bounds of a healthy relationship where there is mutual respect and trust. I've always felt it to be a sacred act and something to value and cherish. I personally don't need it to be happy and fulfilled. I need to be loved and close to someone. But, again, these are my personal feelings. I know others may have different feelings and needs.