Conflicting Thoughts Regarding the State of my Future

[Pakhawaj]

Well, I'm certainly not trying to make you feel worse. I hope you would tell me if that is happening.

Certainly not, I'm sorry if I gave you that impression.

It's very difficult, because of course there is some relationship between how a person behaves and how people might feel about them. But there is not a responsibility for how those people feel. For instance, if a person acts angry and yells in public, there are still quite a few different possible reactions. Some people might get angry in return. Some might feel sorry for a person with so little self-control. Some might hurry away in fear. Some might genuinely want to help that person calm themselves and feel better. You see? The reaction, the feeling the other people get, depends not on the original person's actions, but on who the people are who experience those actions. The reaction belongs to the person who feels it, not to the person they're reacting to.

Are you saying the angry man should not feel responsible for making people feel these negative thoughts? If he were not so angry, he would not provoke such thoughts. A negative experience causes negative emotions.

Is this possibly a description of how you react to other people?

How do you know (prove or disprove) that you actually are responsible? Maybe you're just assuming that you have the power to influence others so strongly.

It is possibly, I'd like to think I'm more rational than that though.

Obviously it is impossible to absolutely prove that I am responsible but it is also impossible to prove that I am not. I said before, that in the past I have almost always gotten what I wanted, I believe this shows a certain degree of power over influence. I don't mean for this to make me sound Godly, just selfish and influential.

It is very possible that actions that you take might be perceived as "clownish or idiotic". It's also possible that they would be perceived as genuine and innocent. So why do you grant so much more importance to people who might perceive you badly? Maybe it's people who make fun of others, that way, who should be looked down upon?

Genuine and innocent is just a nice way of saying immature and ignorant. It is important people perceive me negatively because I am a horrible person, I couldn't possibly look down upon anyone.

Basically, I seriously doubt that you have the power to make "many people become miserable". That would almost be a superpower ...

It does seem that way doesn't it. Like a very horrible superpower.

I feel a bit worse after the walk, if only because of the ramifications actions like this could hold for me. It wasn't devastating. I saw an old acquaintance of mine waiting for a bus which was temporarily distressing and there was a lone runner in the wood, I don't think he gave me a second thought though, I hope not. Thank you for talking to me, I'm sorry.

[IrmaJean]

Are you saying the angry man should not feel responsible for making people feel these negative thoughts? If he were not so angry, he would not provoke such thoughts.

No one can "make people feel negative thoughts". Responses to anger come from within the person who has the response. While we can be mindful and aware of the feelings of others, we aren't responsible for those feelings.

[Pakhawaj]

No one can "make people feel negative thoughts". Responses to anger come from within the person who has the response. While we can be mindful and aware of the feelings of others, we aren't responsible for those feelings.

I disagree, otherwise you wouldn't be sorry. You can't be sorry for something that is the fault of someone else. People apologise for being angry at people because they regret hurting the other person's feelings.

I think I've decided I won't go on another trip, I don't want something else to become complacent in. I have been so lax of late and it is scary. I should probably stop seeing my therapist too, but I'm too selfish. I don't really know how to commit to life-changing things.

[IrmaJean]

Some behaviors and actions can be hurtful to others, yes, but the person who "owns" these feelings is the person who feels them. This is not to say that we don't try to respect and treat others with kindness. Of course we do, but we can't control their responses. If you were to tell the same joke to 10 different people, they very likely wouldn't have the same response. Every feeling we have has some meaning that is personal to us. Reactions and responses are complex. I'm often crying in sad movies because something I'm seeing resonates personally with me. It might trigger a sad memory or a fear or even an appreciative feeling. The family member with me will have their own response based on their own personal experiences. There are so many factors involved.

How, Pakhawaj, is taking care of your needs "selfish"? I like to reframe that word to self-care. Taking care of yourself is a positive thing.

[Pakhawaj]

Some behaviors and actions can be hurtful to others, yes, but the person who "owns" these feelings is the person who feels them. This is not to say that we don't try to respect and treat others with kindness. Of course we do, but we can't control their responses. If you were to tell the same joke to 10 different people, they very likely wouldn't have the same response. Every feeling we have has some meaning that is personal to us. Reactions and responses are complex. I'm often crying in sad movies because something I'm seeing resonates personally with me. It might trigger a sad memory or a fear or even an appreciative feeling. The family member with me will have their own response based on their own personal experiences. There are so many factors involved.

You're right, but I think in general reactions can be anticipated. The angry man could receive a loving kiss from the targets of his vent, but I think that more often than not they will just feel deflated or perhaps angry themselves. I know that by interacting with others there is a chance that they could be happy, but I think this will be a rare occasion and not worth everyone else's misery.

How, Pakhawaj, is taking care of your needs "selfish"? I like to reframe that word to self-care. Taking care of yourself is a positive thing.

It is not taking care of my "needs" at all, I am forcing some kindly person to spend her hours on a worthless and thankless cause just so I have some company once a week. This is certainly an incredibly selfish act. I don't mean to say that counselling people is worthless, I mean to say that I can't imagine myself ever feeling happy and so the action is worthless.

I don't know how to take care of myself or if I ought to, I am a useless entity.

Is it sad I felt slightly elated when you called me by my name? I don't know. It's not even my real one. It's pretty sad that this is the only contact I get with the outside world.

I keep reading horrible news articles about events happening and it doesn't seem to make the outside attractive at all... I realise this is fabricated by my own reality and lack of positivities but it still affects my view on things...

I'm sorry if I should have created a different thread for this last paragraph, I feel as if I take up so much space in this forum as it is, it was only a lingering thought, I'm sorry if it is unnecessary or offensive.

[IrmaJean]

Alex, the first way to begin taking care of yourself is by treating yourself gently and with kindness and respect. Therapy can give you the skills and self-knowledge to learn how to take care of yourself, but you have to be open to the possibilities.

You mention that your therapist is "kindly". How do you sense his/her kindness? Can you sense any of this in yourself as well? What is it about having company that you enjoy? Does it elicit positive feelings?

Maybe try allowing your mind to go...even if simply in imagination...to a place where you do feel happy. What does that place look like to you?

I think it's very natural to like the sound of our own name. This is very positive! It's a connection to our own humanity and sense of self. We're being acknowledged and this feels good. Try allowing and accepting those good feelings. I actually like calling people by name as well. It feels connective, if even briefly.

Expressing your feelings and concerns is healthy, Alex. The outside world can be frightening at times, I know. I get that sometimes too. Fear is natural, but you don't want it to weigh you down and keep you from trying.

Take care.

[Pakhawaj]

I don't know what to do anymore. I hate living so much, it's so horrible, I hate waking up I hate being conscious.I can't die because I need to keep my family happy, dying is so selfish but what can I do, the longer I leave it the more selfish the act will become. I;m so sorry, really fucking sorry. There's no conflicting thoughts, I'm just trying to avoid the inevitable by pretending I can live, I'm so fucking foolish. Everything depends upon me, but I'm not doing anything.. I'm just sitting here.

I need to say to myself 'if this happens, then do this definitely', but I won't. I'll just sit here until... I don't know.

I'm sorry for not reply to you IrmaJean. If I can't even imagine what it is like to be happy then... I don't know, I'm sorry.

If no one bans me from these forums I will keep posting, I don't have the willpower to stop myself any more.

[malign]

Well, okay, perhaps we can't get there directly, by debating your self-worth with you. So, maybe it will work to turn a few of these things on their heads?

You've said that you'll be sticking around for a while, because it would be selfish to do otherwise. Okay, so that means you'll have some time on your hands. What do you think about volunteering that time, to help others?

There are always places that need volunteers. For instance, there are soup kitchens for the homeless, where the only skill they would require is that you be able to hold a soup ladle. Perhaps you're only postponing the inevitable by living, but this would at least allow you to make yourself useful while you wait.

You know, we're all going to die, so in that sense, are postponing the inevitable. So really, the question is what to do with this gift of life, while you still have it?

So far, your emphasis is on whether you can "have" a life, by which we have meant a life you enjoy. You seem to reject that, for reasons related to your self-image. But perhaps you're missing the part of life that we give away, to the common good of the humanity around us? Maybe if you just put yourself to work for others, you'd eventually see a reason to be here.

It could be worth a try.

[Pakhawaj]

I can't, I tried that, I can't do it. Everyone I interact with I keep imagining the horrible things which will occur because they have spoken to me or have seen me, I imagine myself stuck doing something and then becoming complacent. I can't do it. I imagine myself slowly rotting away, the fragments of my being dripping down onto the ground until all that is left is a dead broken husk, whatever personality or intellect I may have once held mutilated so I can satisfy the obligation to help others.

And then I feel the horrible burden of doing something, I cannot do it well enough, everything is shite, I am ruining everyone else's effort.

I cannot help others, it is against the nature of my soul I can't do anythign but make everyone just that bit more dreary

I'm sorry, I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm really sorry.If I had another lifetime to live, I could not apologise enough, of course for this I am sorry.

[malign]

Well, you seem to have strong concerns about becoming complacent.

It's not entirely clear, though: complacent about what?

I imagine myself slowly rotting away, the fragments of my being dripping down onto the ground until all that is left is a dead broken husk, whatever personality or intellect I may have once held mutilated so I can satisfy the obligation to help others.

Ouch, that sounds pretty horrible. Until you notice that you're already doing all that, and no one is benefitting ...

But there's no "obligation" to us, Alex. Maybe you owe it to yourself, but only you would know.

{My first name is Alexander, too, but I go by my middle, Mark. Pleased to meet you.}

[Pakhawaj]

Complacent about becoming something which I do not want to become, but living with it out of laziness.

I know people benefit because of my existence, if I did not people would be sad. I used to think they would be happy if I died, but from reading tales about deaths in families, I think this is untrue. I may be rotting, but I'm doing it as slowly as I can,,, Can you not see how fucking annoying I am? Talking in fucking metaphors like I am some sort of a fucking mystic. I am alone and this is good for the world, it's the best I can do.

I don't know what to think about your sentence in brackets. You are flattering me to ridiculous proportions when I am whinging and fucking whining about bloody nowt.

[malign]

Complacent about becoming something which I do not want to become ...

Hey, this is progress! So, what is it that you do want to become?

If it were truly "nowt", there'd be no problem. So maybe it's "summat", but only part of you thinks it's important. I'm certainly not flattering you by giving you my name; it's mine to give, after all. :-)

You're not a fucking mystic, nor am I. But words are what we have to communicate, and metaphors are just word-pictures. Can you not see that the only person you're "fucking annoying" is you? The rest of us don't mind, and are trying to help. :-)

And it's okay if you don't understand that, yet.

[Pakhawaj]

I'm really sorry, I hadn't realised I was using slang. I'm very sorry. I'm sorry for being angry.

I want to be in a state where I know I can't make anyone miserable or a state where I can satisfy myself, but this doesn't exist.

I'm certainly not flattering you by giving you my name

Though meeting me certainly isn't a pleasure.

I don't know what to do, the only option I have is to continue on as I have, but I hate doing it but if I stop everyone will be sad and I am not worth as much as many people. But I want to stop, I know if I do- I will feel so selfish and manipulative. What can I do when I can only do one thing.

My therapist said I should have some time to think over whether I want to stop seeing her, I will probably give in and see her again, even when I am so isolated I intrude on peoples lives.

[malign]

Do you imagine that I'm in a "state where I can't make anyone miserable"?

It's actually quite easy to inadvertently cause someone pain. The thing is, none of us are immune from that possibility. Most of us try to minimize it; that's the best any of us can do.

As for satisfying myself, that depends somewhat on how I define satisfaction. I generally find it possible to be satisfied, and impossible to be completely satisfied. If that makes sense.

You only get to decide whether meeting me is a pleasure. The other is my decision. ;-)

I can't convince you that you have other options (options to live), but I won't stop believing it just because you don't.

[IrmaJean]

I'm sorry, I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm really sorry.If I had another lifetime to live, I could not apologise enough, of course for this I am sorry.

Can you think of any reason or occurrence in your life in which you felt yourself to be a burden to others?

I have done this too (the apologizing)and still sometimes do. It's hard to get it out of my mind sometimes that I'm bothering someone by being present or by asserting my needs. I have to stop and remind myself that it's okay to be myself. It's okay to ask for what I need. That isn't being a bother, it's taking care of myself. I am worthy of that. So are you.

Why are you sorry, Alex?

[Pakhawaj]

Do you imagine that I'm in a "state where I can't make anyone miserable"?

It's actually quite easy to inadvertently cause someone pain. The thing is, none of us are immune from that possibility. Most of us try to minimize it; that's the best any of us can do.

Of course. This is what I do minimise it.

As for satisfying myself, that depends somewhat on how I define satisfaction. I generally find it possible to be satisfied, and impossible to be completely satisfied. If that makes sense.

Do you mean that it is impossible for you to be satisfied, but your eagerness for satisfaction prevents you from becoming downbeat? I don't know if it makes sense for me unless you mean this.

I'm sorry for how I behaved yesterday, I don't know why I was so emotional. It was probably my fault for allowing myself to get to that state, sorry.

Can you think of any reason or occurrence in your life in which you felt yourself to be a burden to others?

Yes. I am always a burden.

I have done this too (the apologizing)and still sometimes do. It's hard to get it out of my mind sometimes that I'm bothering someone by being present or by asserting my needs. I have to stop and remind myself that it's okay to be myself. It's okay to ask for what I need. That isn't being a bother, it's taking care of myself.

I don't need what I have, I take everything and do nothing else, nothing else in return. I am living in my mam's house using her water and electricity, eating her food, using her soap and papers and chewing on her pens.

I am worthy of that. So are you.

You are wrong, I am not. I know myself better than you know me.

Why are you sorry, Alex?

If I listed all the reasons I was sorry I could not finish a post on this website, I feel bad about apologising so infrequently but I know it gets on people's nerves so I try to only say it when it is most important.

My dad came to visit me today, he gave me a ring which he had since he was eighteen, saying it was once his symbol of freedom. It was so difficult not to cry. I can't imagine how difficult it must be for him watching his son becoming such a disappointing thing, watching his son never becoming free and how hard it must be for him to accept that. I am crying as I type this and I want to type an unhappy smiley face, but I know this is a luxury I don't deserve and I hate living.

[IrmaJean]

You are wrong, I am not. I know myself better than you know me.

I may not know you very well, Alex, but I don't have to to know that you are worthy. If you are a living, breathing human being, you are worthy.

If I listed all the reasons I was sorry I could not finish a post on this website, I feel bad about apologising so infrequently but I know it gets on people's nerves so I try to only say it when it is most important.

Have you discussed with your therapist why you might be feeling this way?

My dad came to visit me today, he gave me a ring which he had since he was eighteen, saying it was once his symbol of freedom. It was so difficult not to cry. I can't imagine how difficult it must be for him watching his son becoming such a disappointing thing, watching his son never becoming free and how hard it must be for him to accept that. I am crying as I type this and I want to type an unhappy smiley face, but I know this is a luxury I don't deserve and I hate living.

What of the love you have to offer, such as the love you feel for your father? Never is a strong word. There is plenty of time to find freedom. I'm very sorry that you are feeling sad, Alex. And, yes, your feelings do matter very much. I hope that expressing your feelings offers some relief.

[Pakhawaj]

Have you discussed with your therapist why you might be feeling this way?

I never considered it to be important. Do you think it is? I am sorry for being stupid.

What of the love you have to offer, such as the love you feel for your father? Never is a strong word. There is plenty of time to find freedom. I'm very sorry that you are feeling sad, Alex. And, yes, your feelings do matter very much. I hope that expressing your feelings offers some relief.

What of the love I have to offer him? I don't understand the question. I am sorry.

I don't want plenty of time, I don't want to become a thirty year-old with the maturity of someone half my age.

I don't know if it offers me relief... I think it is quite plausible that it does. But I don't know. It feels nicer than bottling them up and releasing them in bursts when I am feeling vulnerable but it also makes me feel guilty for having told somebody. Because I am selfish, it is easier to tolerate the guilt though I think.

[IrmaJean]

I think that anything that is bothering you and causing you pain is something to discuss in therapy. The fact that you feel as if you are a burden means something. It comes from somewhere. Sometimes false beliefs can become ingrained. Maybe your therapist can help you come to understand the origin of that feeling so you can take steps to free yourself from it.

As to you loving your dad, what I meant was that you have love inside of you to offer. This is a gift. I know you probably can't see that right now, but it is there.

[Pakhawaj]

Recently I've done things which I think perhaps I shouldn't have done.

I have went out for a meal with my dad and met his girlfriend, [i am sorry for typing what was once here].

I don't know how I got to a state where I could allow myself to do this sort of thing, I feel so incredibly selfish that I seem to care as little as I do. I worry that I'm becoming apathetic towards other people or maybe I am becoming crazy.

I feel so guilty that I went to the meal, that I used my dad for food and that I may have raised his hopes over the state of me. I feel guilty that I met his girlfriend, that I've infected someone else's life with my presence.

[i am sorry for typing what was once here].

I don't know what is going on with my mental state, if I have lost all my morals and if I'm giving in to temptation and wicked greed, I should be torturing myself for what I've done but the idea just seems odd to me now. Is it possible to turn yourself insane? Or maybe I've become evil, if such a thing exists. I don't know.

[Pakhawaj]

My therapist doesn't seem to think I'm going insane but I don't know if I could trust her judgement of how bad a person I am. She suggested I should think of myself using a different mode of thought, I could emulate how I perceive others to think but I think that would just be emulation. How could I change the manner of my thought?

I feel like I'm clinging on to my philosophy as much as I can even though I don't really believe in it any more. I even allow myself to type smilies. :s

[Pakhawaj]

If morality is not a taboo subject on these forums, could someone please give their own insight on evil or depravity in regards to what I am doing? I'm really terribly sorry for triple-posting, I know this sort of action is frowned upon, but I feel perhaps as if people have not noticed my posts. I'm sorry if this breaks the rules or is totally against online etiquette and I certainly won't do it again if it is.

Is morality a taboo subject on these forums? I'm very sorry if it is and I'm sorry for potentially disrupting harmony here. If anyone could direct me to a website where I am allowed to ask questions regarding morality I would be thankful. I appreciate that morality is a subjective thing and might not play a part in a forum about mental health.

Am I using these forums incorrectly or immorally or in annoying manner? My posts go unnoticed a lot of the time but I don't want to trouble anybody.

I did not end up doing anything in the end. I think this is good, but I don't really know anymore.

[finding my way]

pakhawaj, I'm not clear on what you are asking us from a sentence structure standpoint. It sounds like you are in a great deal of pain and you are trying to deal with it with your thoughts. That works for some things, but it can also lead to thinking in circles. Do you have compassion for yourself hurting? That is another route to try. There are some situations that are just painful.

[Pakhawaj]

I am very sorry that my posts were not comprehensible, I try to type in a clear manner, but I don't think my vocabulary is large enough to portray my thoughts or emotions well. I will try to make myself more clear.

I am worried that perhaps I am becoming sociopathic or evil because of my decreasing lack of concern for others and my willingness to allow myself to do things merely because I cannot be bothered to fight against my whims. I gave an example above where I went for a meal with my father without any concern for his mental well-being or monetary situation.

I don't know if I believe in evil, but I think in stories it is described as a state where one gives in to wicked temptations without sympathies for others and this is awfully similar to how I am now. I was hoping a wise person could tell me if I am wrong or right or what their thoughts are because I can't tell if I am doing good things or bad things any more.

How can I deal with something except through thoughts?

[finding my way]

we aren't able to diagnose here, so don't take what I say as anything more than one person talking... from what you have written you do not seem evil at all, you seem depressed.

It is very important to know the difference between feelings and thoughts. People suffering from depression or anxiety can get into a confusion where they think their feelings and feel their thoughts. Life becomes a very painful knot at that point. There is much more to you than your thoughts, just as there is more to you than your feelings. Getting to know the various aspects of your functioning can help you sort out some debilitating confusions inside.