what is manliness?

[Resolute]

and to answer your questions though, beth, no, nothing brings me any peace or pleasure. i'm literally in a constant state of dissatisfaction with my body and my circumstances. i have no escape or break from it, ever; no matter what i'm doing, the fact that i'm ugly (broke, loser, etc.) is always on my mind. i can't enjoy anything.

this isn't anything new either; it has always been the case, except i used to have some hope, until my final quest came crashing down, late last year. i knew then and there that my situation is in fact unfixable.

[Lukaz]

.

[Resolute]

@skynight, i've always liked you, and was and still am impressed and baffled with what you have managed to achieve in terms of changing your thinking and outlook, and so on. that said, you still keep repeating yourself without actually adding anything new, any feasible solutions, or practical techniques to achieve any of these illusive concepts.

i never said anything about 'acting' dominant, cocky, or intimidating, etc.. in fact the traits i mentioned need to be innate and inherent qualities in order for them to have the required effect. and needless to say, for these characteristics to exist inherently in a man, he must have the supporting characteristics to back them up, including great genes (looks, health, etc.); otherwise he'd just be deluding himself.

one thing you keep repeating is how society tells us to do this, and not do that, or be like this, and not like that, and so on... but you keep failing to realize (or you keep forgetting) that in order for a person to thrive in any society, he/she must meet most of that society's requirements and expectations in terms of looks, wealth, health, status, etc., whether he/she likes it or not. and the more a person lacks in any of those departments, the more difficult and miserable his/her existence will be in that society.

another idea on which you continue to insist, is that money is the sole (or main) driving force behind all (or most) of society's behaviors, habits, tastes and preferences, and so on, while in many cases, that couldn't be farther from the truth. pure sexual attraction for instance may have nothing at all to do with money or wealth in some cases; such as a woman -married to a very rich but very old and ill man- who has an affair with a healthy young buck who hasn't a buck to his name; even though she knows she might be endangering her financial interests.

last but not least, is that some of what you say might apply to men who wanna 'provide' for a woman, and live happily ever after with her, blah blah.... but for a smart man who just wants to have fun, without any emotional or financial investment, in this case, my theory applies; which means good genes, good circumstances/opportunities, etc. are what's needed.

[Resolute]

Skynight, to be clear. Don't you think that aside from the obvious forced movements, that social norms are simply the collective projection of our personal values? In short, doesn't society insist on looks, money and intelligence because we value it on a personal level, rather than having it dictated to us? If we placed a small group of people on a secluded island away from society; do you think they would stop valuing looks, assets and intelligence? If not, I'm afraid you have your causality inverted. It's the individual that dictates these terms, society merely reinforces them

wow, very nice, small.

[Victimorthecrime]

But it seems like a hell of a coincidence to me that a lot of people suddenly decide what they want...after hearing it trumpeted into their brains for the billionth time. Suddenly every woman sees the practical value of yoga pants and every young guy the aesthetic value of being hairless and tattooed. Advertising works, it's been proven. Give people freedom and first thing they do is look around at what everyone else is doing.

No biggie, just sharing the random noise in my brain. Probably missed some obvious fact as usual.

[Guest Klingsor]

Nevermind. Who gives a shit.

[Resolute]

But it seems like a hell of a coincidence to me that a lot of people suddenly decide what they want...after hearing it trumpeted into their brains for the billionth time. Suddenly every woman sees the practical value of yoga pants and every young guy the aesthetic value of being hairless and tattooed. Advertising works, it's been proven. Give people freedom and first thing they do is look around at what everyone else is doing.

No biggie, just sharing the random noise in my brain. Probably missed some obvious fact as usual.

let's be clear, there are two types of people, the independent thinkers, and the thoughtless followers. the kind of people who "look around to see what everyone else is doing" are usually the more impressionable latter type (unless they just look around to get an idea of where everything/everyone stands, and not simply to mimic it).

no doubt that some advertising, promoting, and marketing approaches can be very effective, but only if they exploit basic human needs or desires, otherwise these tactics would fail miserably.

[Resolute]

damn it, klingsor, that was a good post.

[IrmaJean]

One of the posts above talked about a real man being true to himself then later described a state of permanent melancholy and dissatisfaction as depression. Sometimes I find the most interesting thing about me (in my own mind) is the time I spend thinking about why I am who I am, why I have the preferences I have, what is social and what is biological. Am I a depressive loner and should I accept it or should I fight the unreal version of me created by distorted perception of myself and the unkind world.

I wouldn't think of any mood as permanent. I feel there is always the potential of a change for the better. Maybe try to not attach feelings to your sense of self? Perhaps reframe to "I feel lonely and depressed" rather than label yourself in any way? The feelings are not who you are as a person.

One thing that cults do is separate people from any other possible viewpoints. The groups are often removed from general society where their thoughts might be challenged. Without any other influence, people may come to believe some very distorted thoughts. I did a research report some years back on Jim Jones...Sad stuff.

[Resolute]

I wouldn't think of any mood as permanent. I feel there is always the potential of a change for the better....

is it still 'potential' if it relied on practically impossible things in order for it to happen? and don't forget about the potential of change for the worse; although would it still be just 'potential' if all the requirements (all the necessary components) for its realization were present?

[IrmaJean]

Is there a space to possibly change the expectation(s)? I don't know if there is, but the question comes to mind in response to your question. I like potential because it offers a space for grays and loosens up "all or nothing" thinking, which I feel can be limiting. I am also aware that I tend to view the world through a hopeful and perhaps idealistic eye. I do think potential can remained unfulfilled, yes, but the fact that it is present, offers opportunity, chance, and hope.

[Resolute]

I do think potential can remained unfulfilled, yes, but the fact that it is present, offers opportunity, chance, and hope.

my point was: what about the situations where it isn't present?

[IrmaJean]

If someone truly sees no potential, I think there can be comfort found in friendships...

There may be ways to find the way back to hope too, if one cannot see it. A change of focus, expectations, patterns of thinking... I think this would depend on the individual and that person's situation. Therapy could be helpful.

[Resolute]

If someone truly sees no potential, I think there can be comfort found in friendships...

There may be ways to find the way back to hope too, if one cannot see it. A change of focus, expectations, patterns of thinking... I think this would depend on the individual and that person's situation. Therapy could be helpful.

beth, i know you've always been patient with me, so please bear with me... let me give this another shot... here goes nothing:

i think we need to define something before proceeding; and that thing is: what does "better" mean in "things can change for the better"? do you mean actually better, or imaginary better?

another thing to consider is that i keep using very clear, direct and rigid words and sentences (black & white) in my questions, and you keep dodging them by giving answers using flexible words and sentences (gray). for example: i asked: "what should be done in the absence of potential for things to improve?" (i paraphrased, but reading my last few posts you can see that the context and meaning is consistent); your answer: "If someone truly sees no potential....". do you see the problem? by using the word "sees" you're implying that the problem is strictly in that person's mind -specially when you read the rest of that post, when you mention things that chiefly address psychological issues, such as therapy, etc.- when in reality my query was clearly about situations where there was actually no potential for things getting better in a person's actual life, outside his mind.

again, i don't mean to be confrontational or scare you away or anything, just some observations .

[IrmaJean]

I do worry about upsetting people. I always like to believe there is potential, but that perhaps depression may make it seem like there isn't. Grays, too, I feel are very important...

Give me an example of no potential, perhaps that would help. What does "better" mean to you?

[Resolute]

ok, now we're getting somewhere .

an example of no practical (by practical i mean without miracles and such) potential is a man who has a very physically painful terminal illness that would take years to kill that person, with no known cure, no encouraging advancement in the field that covers this particular disease, and no effective method to relieve his pain. in addition to that, his wife had recently divorced him and taken all his money in the "settlement", and he was also laid-off due to recession etc.. his children are estranged from him, and telemarketers keep trying to sell him stuff . and believe me beth, this fictional example is far less cruel than many real-life scenarios.

what does "better" mean to me? it means the poor bastard in my example actually finding a way out of his predicament without miracles, hallucinogens, or euthanasia.

[IrmaJean]

I do understand that people can truly go through way too much in their lives. :(

The potential for this man from my viewpoint would be in moments of serenity and feeling love and comfort in his life. I would encourage him to seek out friendships and support and allow himself to feel comfort and care whenever he can.

So perhaps then "better" means something a bit different to me than it does to you. Fair enough. Sometimes there is no clear "fix"...but maybe we can make the journey a bit less painful by being there for one another and caring.

I hope so, anyway.

[Resolute]

The potential for this man from my viewpoint would be in moments of serenity and feeling love and comfort in his life. I would encourage him to seek out friendships and support and allow himself to feel comfort and care whenever he can.

may i give him your number? (that's a compliment by the way)

[Guest Klingsor]

[

[Guest Klingsor]

?

[Lukaz]

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[gone]

I would hope that most of us do this and don't take it too seriously. The issue is serious (to us) and we would like answers but the chances of finding them are pretty remote so most of this stuff should be read in that context. My posts tend to be incoherent babbling, an emotional reaction to an emotional issue, venting. I wish I could give thoughtful and eloquent responses like Small and others but I don't have much meaningful to say.

At best we can find ways of coping through the experience of others and hopefully get some kind understanding in our most desperate times but mostly it's just bullshit. I still find that reading this forum is somehow helpful and useful and I do like some of the more interesting discussions between those who have a better understanding of themselves than I.

Great post. I too enjoy reading what others more articulate than I post here. There are many wordsmiths here that express themselves in great style.

[Resolute]

Your thoughts are detailed and systematic, I'm sure everyone enjoys reading your entries. What would resolute do if he had no one to crack wise with?

i enjoy most of small's posts, as well as some other posters, and i even enjoy some of the posts of my opponents (people with different views) because at least it allows me to exercise my brain when coming up with a response.

i often argue and disagree with irmajean and skynight, but i know that both of them have noble intentions.

[Resolute]

I'm happy that you posted here. I feel, without upsetting anyone else I hope, that you exhibit the most manly characteristics in our little gang. I'd love to hear your response to the OP.

more manly than me??? i'm infuriated!!! no harem for you, lol. as for john, well, depends on his response.

[gone]

I'm happy that you posted here. I feel, without upsetting anyone else I hope, that you exhibit the most manly characteristics in our little gang. I'd love to hear your response to the OP.

Lord no, Small. I'm not the most anything here. I just get up, put the hardhat on and go earn a living just like everyone else. I got married.....a lot of guys do. I boxed....a lot of guys do. I raised three kids.....a lot of guys do. I'm no one different in a group of millions.

I think the answer to Resolutes original question is completely different to different folks.

It's kinda like asking a hundred different guys "What's your idea of a beautiful woman?" You'll get a hundred different answers, and everyone of the answers will be 100% correct.

For me, what makes a man is meaning what you say. Don't make promises or commitments you're not going to keep. Standing up for what you believe, even if you know you're going to take a whupping from someone for it.

Just for me, being a man has nothing to do with your physical size (including what's 'down there') or how 'bad' you are. It has nothing to do with how many ladies you've bedded.

A man has your six, even if you aren't the best of friends. A man isn't wishy-washy. Don't beat around the bush, don't fall in with the 'popular' way of thinking if you disagree with it.

Sorry, I don't have a quick way of saying how I feel about this, and I know many will disagree with what I've said so far.

That's ok.

Edit: Oh, come on! I want a harem!! What do I have to say?!