what is manliness?

[IrmaJean]

Resolute, that is your truth and I respect that. 

I think what makes a man a man has nothing to do with what women see in him...this comes from within him. It's about who he is.

Roger J, yes, but I can only speak for myself. I don't know how other women might feel.

 

[Resolute]

2 minutes ago, RogerJay said:

I can see how the two qualities might be divorced from each other: a young woman might see her father or grandfather as being "manly" without (obviously) associating that manliness with feelings of sexual attraction.

However I can't help feeling that (all special familial considerations aside) most women would associate the the two things - in most cases very strongly.

(I would certainly say it is the case that womanliness and femininity are a very powerful part of male-female sexual attraction.)

the same young woman who considers her father/grandfather to be manly (provided they were physically inadequate or unattractive), would almost certainly not be attracted to strangers resembling these characteristics.

[malign]

It seems to me that this entire conversation includes unspoken assumptions about the nature of judgment.

It's certain that some people judge others, and that such judgments can be extremely painful to some of those who are judged.  Please -- note the "somes" in that last sentence.  First, not everybody judges others, at least not in the sense of an absolute inclusion or exclusion from their lives based on a single trait.  Second, not everybody who is judged negatively by those somebodys suffers in the same way.  A great deal of latitude exists in how people handle other people's judgments.

Another factor is the tendency of any person who has been hurt to generalize the source.  It's difficult to understand why a particular person hurt us;  it's easier to believe that it was a kind of person.  If it was an individual, we have no clues to whom to avoid in the future.  With a group, there's a reassuring feeling that we'll be able to protect ourselves in the future by avoiding them all.

What I'm saying is that women are no more monolithic in their behavior, opinions, or biology than men are.  There are women who have never even considered "casual" sex, for instance, and so even if their biology changes over their estrus cycle, their behavior doesn't.  There are men who don't attempt to sleep with every potential partner who crosses their path, despite the quite apparent evolutionary advantages to doing so.  Moreover, such men don't get eliminated from the gene pool, also despite the mathematical disadvantage.  So, the obvious question is, what's the offsetting avantage?

The offsetting advantage is that humans are not entirely ruled by instinct.  We're not subject to very useful statistical arguments about what we will do, as individuals.  Now, this could also end up being a disadvantage for the species, in the long run, but it's something we do have to accept:  each and every one of us is different.

[Resolute]

14 minutes ago, malign said:

It seems to me that this entire conversation includes unspoken assumptions about the nature of judgment.

It's certain that some people judge others, and that such judgments can be extremely painful to some of those who are judged.  Please -- note the "somes" in that last sentence.  First, not everybody judges others, at least not in the sense of an absolute inclusion or exclusion from their lives based on a single trait.  Second, not everybody who is judged negatively by those somebodys suffers in the same way.  A great deal of latitude exists in how people handle other people's judgments.

Another factor is the tendency of any person who has been hurt to generalize the source.  It's difficult to understand why a particular person hurt us;  it's easier to believe that it was a kind of person.  If it was an individual, we have no clues to whom to avoid in the future.  With a group, there's a reassuring feeling that we'll be able to protect ourselves in the future by avoiding them all.

What I'm saying is that women are no more monolithic in their behavior, opinions, or biology than men are.  There are women who have never even considered "casual" sex, for instance, and so even if their biology changes over their estrus cycle, their behavior doesn't.  There are men who don't attempt to sleep with every potential partner who crosses their path, despite the quite apparent evolutionary advantages to doing so.  Moreover, such men don't get eliminated from the gene pool, also despite the mathematical disadvantage.  So, the obvious question is, what's the offsetting avantage?

The offsetting advantage is that humans are not entirely ruled by instinct.  We're not subject to very useful statistical arguments about what we will do, as individuals.

actually, we are. of course that depends on who's doing the statistical analysis (and how much data is available to him/her).

 

14 minutes ago, malign said:

 Now, this could also end up being a disadvantage for the species, in the long run, but it's something we do have to accept:  each and every one of us is different.

there are always patterns. and like you said (sort of), very specific individual differences aren't of much use to us. what is of use are patterns.

btw, good to see you again, mark.

[IrmaJean]

The study Klingsor is referring to I think had to do with women being most attracted to men who share the least amount of genes with them at the peak of their cycles, thus giving any potential offspring the greatest chance of survival.

Roger Jay, that wouldn't work for me. I had everything  (well most everything) removed in October.


I do feel a little queasy about not coming across correctly. Just to clarify...

I'm very rarely physically attracted to anyone and wouldn’t be anyway unless I looked for a long time, which I don't because I'm already married. But I have had my share of crushes on actors over the years. My h just teases me and laughs about this. I can't say what the actors' character traits are because I don't know them personally, but this only seems to happen when the male party is involved in a romance that I like. (cue The X-Files) So for me the physical attraction seems to happen over time when I spend time looking and become familiar with mannerisms etc.

I need to go to my pink room now. :/

[Resolute]

19 minutes ago, RogerJay said:

I dunno Resolute. I have heard it said that women can be attracted to guys that resemble their father...

i think it usually means one of two things: 1. that the type of person with whom they end up, would resemble their fathers (so not necessarily the guy with whom they wanna fool around). or 2. they're attracted to qualities in such men other than their physical traits (assuming their fathers aren't physically attractive). there isn't much difference between these two points, btw.

[Resolute]

as i've stated before (on another thread), no one should dispute the fact that there need be a distinction between feminine and masculine qualities. there are some qualities that are gender-neutral, and these can be characterized as human or inhuman traits (as opposed to manly or unmanly, womanly or unwomanly).

focusing on general human traits rather than gender-specific ones when describing what distinguishes either gender is somewhat meaningless.

[gone]

7 hours ago, Resolute said:

c'mon you two, stop picking on beth. she is, after all, only human.

Aww, I wasn't picking on her...I wouldn't do that. I wuz just saying I didn't totally agree, that's all.

 

 

[Resolute]

i meant small and roger.

[Resolute]

6 hours ago, malign said:

What I'm saying is that women are no more monolithic in their behavior, opinions, or biology than men are.  There are women who have never even considered "casual" sex, for instance, and so even if their biology changes over their estrus cycle, their behavior doesn't.  There are men who don't attempt to sleep with every potential partner who crosses their path, despite the quite apparent evolutionary advantages to doing so.  Moreover, such men don't get eliminated from the gene pool, also despite the mathematical disadvantage.  So, the obvious question is, what's the offsetting avantage?

The offsetting advantage is that humans are not entirely ruled by instinct.  We're not subject to very useful statistical arguments about what we will do, as individuals.  Now, this could also end up being a disadvantage for the species, in the long run, but it's something we do have to accept:  each and every one of us is different.

i forgot to address this in my previous reply. do you agree that there's a huge advantage (evolutionary or otherwise) for a man in having the opportunity to sleep with loads of beautiful women, as opposed to a man to whom there is no such possibility? if yes, then what is the latter guy to do if he's extremely inclined to sleep with many beautiful women? should he take up stamp collecting instead? or maybe keep telling himself that he's special and unique (because everyone is) and that this should be enough?

[Victimorthecrime]

7 hours ago, IrmaJean said:

yes, but I can only speak for myself. I don't know how other women might feel.

 

You are going to have to because we don't know any other women. 

[Resolute]

2 minutes ago, Victimorthecrime said:

You are going to have to because we don't know any other women. 

lol.

[malign]

Or you guys could go out and meet more women, just to talk to.  ;-)

Res, if there were in fact a huge evolutionary advantage to the extra opportunity, then the traits that supposedly lead to fewer opportunities would have been drastically reduced over the rather long span of time that humans have been here.  That means that the apparent advantage is spurious.  For instance, in humans mating frequency doesn't exactly correlate with reproductive frequency, much less reproductive success.  Maybe the guys with fewer opportunities, or who form more stable bonds, have more, or more successful, children?

That's an entirely different question from the pain one might feel if one wished to have more opportunities and didn't.  Note that that's an individual situation, and an individual's pain, not something accessible statistically.

Still, as Vic said elsewhere, one's own narrative of his life is perhaps the most accessible place to effect a change.  All that's needed is will.  If a guy believes that frequent pairings with multiple physically attractive partners is the definition of manliness, it doesn't matter much what the statistics say.  Yet it's still just a belief ...

[malign]

Ay.  It was a joke, following up on Vic's joke.  With a smiley, even.

And if all I had wanted to do was joke, or if I had intended to hurt anyone's feelings, the post would have ended there.

[Resolute]

10 minutes ago, malign said:

Or you guys could go out and meet more women, just to talk to.  ;-)

why would i wanna talk to women? for the stimulating conversation? for all their knowledge, intellect and rationality? or to get more depressed knowing that all i can do is talk to them, while the good looking guys bang them?

 

10 minutes ago, malign said:

Res, if there were in fact a huge evolutionary advantage to the extra opportunity, then the traits that supposedly lead to fewer opportunities would have been drastically reduced over the rather long span of time that humans have been here.  That means that the apparent advantage is spurious.  For instance, in humans mating frequency doesn't exactly correlate with reproductive frequency, much less reproductive success.  Maybe the guys with fewer opportunities, or who form more stable bonds, have more, or more successful, children?

i don't necessarily subscribe to evolutionary theories, so....

 

10 minutes ago, malign said:

That's an entirely different question from the pain one might feel if one wished to have more opportunities and didn't.  Note that that's an individual situation, and an individual's pain, not something accessible statistically.

what do you mean?

 

10 minutes ago, malign said:

Still, as Vic said elsewhere, one's own narrative of his life is perhaps the most accessible place to effect a change.  All that's needed is will. 

malign, don't you think it's a waste of time, energy (and sometimes money etc.) to invest yourself (your will) in something theoretical, with no guarantees? i mean how many times must a person fail before he realizes: "a - practical- solution might not actually exist"?

 

10 minutes ago, malign said:

If a guy believes that frequent pairings with multiple physically attractive partners is the definition of manliness, it doesn't matter much what the statistics say.  Yet it's still just a belief ...

when do beliefs become facts? or perhaps there are no facts and it's all relative?

[malign]

Actually, I don't think it's a waste to invest in something, with no guarantees.  What, in life, has guarantees?  But I realize that that's just my opinion, and that you may have another, or may use that as an argument against living, even.  How many times must a person fail before he realizes there may be no solution?  He may realize that there may be no solution the whole time, and still try;  how else would he find out?  The flip side is that no matter how many times a person fails, he hasn't proven that there's no solution, just that he isn't trying the right thing.

Beliefs become psychic facts as soon as they are held.  What a fact is, independently of human observers, is a philosophical argument that I don't feel has been concluded satisfactorily yet.  In other words, it's all words;  so we all have to take care how we use them.

What I mean about an individual feeling pain because things are not how they wish they were, is that the pain is also a fact, about which probability and statistics have nothing interesting to say.  Does one's pain become more, or less, significant if a survey shows that other people do or don't share that pain?  I think the pain is real, regardless of the facts.  What to do with the pain seems to me to be what we're really discussing, here.

[IrmaJean]

Terrorised, I'm sorry you're feeling down. I apologize, I missed your post earlier today.

I hope you won't be so hard on yourself.

We're all trying to find our way here the best we can, I think. I feel insecure and afraid sometimes too.

Take care and I hope you feel better.

Roger Jay, no worries. I appreciate humor. I actually feel much better physically since I recovered from the surgery.

Res, do you feel anything positive from talking to women?




 

[Resolute]

@RogerJay, sorry you're going thru this, man . it's funny how the universe (or "god") gives people what they can't use, and takes away what they really need/want. there's a non-english saying "god gives walnuts to those without teeth".

[Victimorthecrime]

7 minutes ago, IrmaJean said:

I actually feel much better physically since I recovered from the surgery.

Now that is some good news. Glad to hear it. 

[Resolute]

9 minutes ago, IrmaJean said:

I actually feel much better physically since I recovered from the surgery.

good to hear, beth.

 

9 minutes ago, IrmaJean said:

Res, do you feel anything positive from talking to women?

depends on the woman. i try avoiding attractive women in real life as much as possible (interacting or even just passing one on the street or in a store etc.). i'm a bit more confident online, but i still don't try to do anything because it's not real. as to women in real life, to whom i'm not attracted, idk. i guess it would sort of be like talking to a man.

[Resolute]

4 minutes ago, RogerJay said:

Thanks.

It's complicated. Some of this stuff is self-inflicted (old chickens coming home to roost, if you will.) Some of it has to do with illness in the family that came pretty much like a bolt from the blue a while back. Some of it has to do with old personality traits which have gradually worsened over time. But I'll spare you any more.

whatever you're comfortable with. i don't mind listening if you wanna share, tho.

 

2 minutes ago, RogerJay said:

(Also moving into early middle age sucks, somehow...)

don't get me started on age and lost (more like stolen) youth.

[Terrorised]

6 hours ago, IrmaJean said:

Terrorised, I'm sorry you're feeling down. I apologize, I missed your post earlier today.

I hope you won't be so hard on yourself.

We're all trying to find our way here the best we can, I think. I feel insecure and afraid sometimes too.

Take care and I hope you feel better.

Thanks Irma. I don't know how to describe what I'm going through but it feels like I have lost my soul or something I don't know. I just feel really empty inside. Anyway thank you very much for your response. 

[Resolute]

@RogerJay, not to sound insensitive, but at least (i'm assuming) you had a good run (a couple of decades maybe?), whereas some of us never had even one good day, and never will.

[gone]

8 hours ago, IrmaJean said:

Terrorised, I'm sorry you're feeling down. I apologize, I missed your post earlier today.

I hope you won't be so hard on yourself.

We're all trying to find our way here the best we can, I think. I feel insecure and afraid sometimes too.

Take care and I hope you feel better.

Roger Jay, no worries. I appreciate humor. I actually feel much better physically since I recovered from the surgery.

Res, do you feel anything positive from talking to women?




 

Beth I'm so glad you feel better physically. I've wondered how you were doing. I've been told in the past that "you just don't ask questions or make comments like that."  A lot of times I just keep my pie hole shut cause I'm not sure if I'm out of line or not. Glad your recovery is going well.
 

8 hours ago, RogerJolly said:

(Also moving into early middle age sucks, somehow...)

Moving into middle age or even older doesn't have to be a bad time. It sounds like you keep in shape, that's a good thing. If one can keep a good attitude and a little upbeat it can be a good time of life. Some days can be a little ......somber, but there's far more things to celebrate and enjoy than fret and stew over.

[Resolute]

believe me, rj, from the beatings i got from dad throughout my absolutely shitty childhood (i couldn't wait to get older), to the body image issues which started right after puberty and only kept getting worse (i was never good looking in any sense of the word). i struggled with my height, weight, thinning hair (yes, even as a teenager), acne (ridiculously enough, i still get acne, but not as much). basically, i've always been very self-conscious and struggled with bdd. i also started developing all sorts of chronic ailments (physical and psychological) around the age of 18 (tho i've had one or two health problems since birth/childhood), and something new is added to the list every once in a while. not to mention all the financial, social, and even legal problems (staying in a country illegally) i have. so i can honestly say that i've never had even one good day, and i'm more than positive that i never will in this lifetime.

sorry, didn't mean to turn this into another whining thread.