whining thread

[Resolute]

I'm probably on the opposite end of the spectrum with this. I believe we have free will, but perhaps some things (such as our physical health) may be predetermined. I agree that things often interact and affect one another.

Klingsor asked why one person isn't another. Identical twins raised in the same family and the same environment won't be the same person. There are many variables at play, 1- but there are also things in life that can't easily be explained with science or reason, in my opinion. The human factor? There aren't always clear answers to all of the whys in life, I don't think.

2- I have known people to rise above their circumstances by being very determined, resilient, and by having a positive attitude and being highly motivated. I understand too that is not always possible.

My personal thoughts...

1- the absence or lack of clear answers and explanations doesn't make randomness possible.

2- this "resilience", determination", and "positiveness" is imprinted in these individuals, and not something they "choose" to 'do' or 'be'.

[Resolute]

Whats so great about the top?

it might not be for every everyone (not to mention that it wouldn't be 'the top' if everyone was in it), but for some it can be very fulfilling.

[Resolute]

We're a delusional, dying breed.

don't worry, most people in the world believe in free will.

[Guest ChinaDoll]

i'm sorry to say that unfortunately, we all are; even though i don't believe in fatalism.

What I mean is to find a place where you don't feel lesser or that the b*tch called Fate is toying with you.

If the top is inaccessible, be comfy with wherever you are. And if you aren't, maybe relocate to some cozy little island in the carribean. (Metaphorically speaking). I'm not good with giving advice. I keep slipping back into despair every now and then. But I have enough fire in me at least to not just accept defeat in life. I still want to fight.

Or at least right now I do.

[Guest ChinaDoll]

I agree with Beth though I may word my sentiments less gently. F U FATE!

It doesnt matter if Im divergent. It doesnt matter if I dont follow the crowd as long as I am happy with who I am.

The fact that successful people shut their ears to vultures who criticise excessively makes me think that its all about belief in one's self.

Ack! I dont know how to explain myself well!!!

[Resolute]

I agree with Beth though I may word my sentiments less gently. F U FATE!

It doesnt matter if Im divergent. It doesnt matter if I dont follow the crowd 1- as long as I am happy with who I am.

2- The fact that successful people shut their ears to vultures who criticise excessively makes me think that its all about belief in one's self.

3- Ack! I dont know how to explain myself well!!!

lol, f u fate.

1- some of us just can't possibly be happy with who (or rather 'what') we are.

2- i disagree.

3- i think i understand most of what you're trying to say.

my intention isn't to depress you or anyone else; i hope you know that.

[Guest ChinaDoll]

Yup.

2- I really dont know enough about your circumstances to give any further comment. I just wonder what part of your biology makes you fated to never be happy. Do you equate the top to happiness? Can you never be happy with just the simple things?

You don't need to answer any of that if I'm prying too much.

[Resolute]

Yup.

2- I really dont know enough about your circumstances to give any further comment. I just wonder what part of your biology makes you fated to never be happy. Do you equate the top to happiness? Can you never be happy with just the simple things?

1- You don't need to answer any of that if I'm prying too much.

1- by alll means, lol.

2- i'm an inferior physical specimen (looks, health, strength); not what women drool over, and not what other men envy. i equate having all my needs met (without exception) to happiness. i really don't want i'll say next to offend anyone: my view is that simple things can only satisfy simple people, and i'm anything but simple.

of course my problems aren't limited to my body, but that's another matter.

[mts]

I'm afraid that my posts will kill the discussion.

[Resolute]

I'm afraid that my posts will kill the discussion.

i can revive any discussion , so go for it; i value your input.

[mts]

2- this "resilience", determination", and "positiveness" is imprinted in these individuals, and not something they "choose" to 'do' or 'be'.

Would you agree that it could be imprinted, then they realize it (as predetermined) in later life, even if they believed in determinism? In other words, there is always a chance because there is no way of knowing what is predetermined.

If so, why is determinism relevant?

[Resolute]

1- Would you agree that it could be imprinted, then they realize it (as predetermined) in later life, even if they believed in determinism? In other words, there is always a chance because there is no way of knowing what is predetermined.

2- If so, why is determinism relevant?

1- generally, i believe that only external factors (environment, circumstances etc.) can change or be realized in the future. this shouldn't apply to internal factors [genetic/biological (whether physical or psychological)], specially after reaching adulthood.

2- it's relevance is mostly in eliminating any and all -actual- responsibility and accountability -for any person- from any decisions, choices, and outcomes.

[mts]

1- generally, i believe that only external factors (environment, circumstances etc.) can change or be realized in the future. this shouldn't apply to internal factors [genetic/biological (whether physical or psychological)], specially after reaching adulthood.

I mean that these abilities could be suppressed, then in later life the person might meet different/positive people and start seeing improvements as we mould ourselves around others. We may be born with certain psychological strengths and weaknesses, but I think our potential is still high given improvement in future circumstance.

[Resolute]

I mean that these abilities could be suppressed, then in later life the person might meet different/positive people and start seeing improvements as we mould ourselves around others. We may be born with certain psychological strengths and weaknesses, but I think our potential is still high given improvement in future circumstance.

i guess it's possible under certain circumstances, for some people.

[Resolute]

Well, I guess it's disheartening to be working at home on a Saturday afternoon, and not being able to take the credit for it. Thanks, cosmos. You rock ♡

but you might at least get paid for it.

[IrmaJean]

2- this "resilience", determination", and "positiveness" is imprinted in these individuals, and not something they "choose" to 'do' or 'be'.

I think it's more complex than this, I believe that everyone has the potential to grow, but perhaps some of these traits may be inborn, true. But if one were to not act and be proactive in trying to reach their potential, they likely would not whether this was inborn or not. My point being is this person had to take active steps and that part, from my perspective, is choice and acting on free will.

[Resolute]

I think it's more complex than this, I believe that everyone has the potential to grow, but perhaps some of these traits may be inborn, true. But if one were to not act and be proactive in trying to reach their potential, they likely would not whether this was inborn or not. My point being is this person had to take active steps and that part, from my perspective, is choice and acting on free will.

the problem is you're basing your conclusions on inaccurate observations. you "observed" some people take active steps, and some who didn't, and you interpreted that as free will, and actual choice, when in fact your lack of knowledge of all the variables and forces at play prevented you from clearly realizing that none of the people in either category could have "chosen" any differently.

my view is that if we had a machine that can extract all existing variables in any given situation, and fed these variables into another machine that had the ability to process these with absolute accuracy, this machine would tell us the exact outcome of that situation up to the smallest details, and with absolute certainty and consistency. this makes "god's" omniscience (if it exists) not as big a deal as it might seem. it's like the domino effect, knowing where the dominoes will end isn't that difficult, if we decided the design and placement of the dominoes ourselves.

boy, do you love flowers or what! i noticed your new profile pic.

[mts]

If noone has any responsibility, then noone has the right to be angry at them either...?

[IrmaJean]

Maybe we can agree to disagree, res... I respect your views and beliefs.

Yes, I love flowers. Lotus flowers are a favorite. I love their symbolism.

[Resolute]

1- Maybe we can agree to disagree, res... I respect your views and beliefs.

Yes, I love flowers. 2- Lotus flowers are a favorite. I love their symbolism.

1- i disagree to disagree, lol.

2- what do they symbolize?

[Resolute]

If noone has any responsibility, then noone has the right to be angry at them either...?

getting upset with them must've also been determined if it happened. it's a crappy system we live in.

[Guest ChinaDoll]

Hmm... ive always thought of myself as an intellectual probably because I grew up in the midst of socialites and have found myself to be nothing like them. I see their materialism as shallow and idiotic.

Seeing now what people that are more aptly called intellectuals look like, it is clear to me that I operate more through my heart than my mind.

If I was simpler, maybe I wouldn't have such a crisis. I wonder...

In this context, I define "simple" as something like "materialistic". How would you define it?

[Resolute]

Hmm... ive always thought of myself as an intellectual probably because I grew up in the midst of socialites and have found myself to be nothing like them. I see their materialism as shallow and idiotic.

Seeing now what people that are more aptly called intellectuals look like, it is clear to me that I operate more through my heart than my mind.

1- If I was simpler, maybe I wouldn't have such a crisis. I wonder...

2- In this context, I define "simple" as something like "materialistic". How would you define it?

simpler means more naive and less conscious, with lower intellect, and less ambition; so you definitely wouldn't have any crisis if you were simple enough (and if you were in crisis, you'd be too simple to know it, lol).

[Guest ChinaDoll]

simpler means more naive and less conscious, with lower intellect, and less ambition; so you definitely wouldn't have any crisis if you were simple enough (and if you were in crisis, you'd be too simple to know it, lol).

Hahaha. Its a tragedy then. Although I do not think my mind was molded well enough to be a real intellectual, apparently I am not simple enough to just "get over" my disgust with humanity. Maybe "exasperation" should be the better term. I go down the street and see idiots left and right. Yep. There's seriously something wrong with my brain.

[Guest ChinaDoll]

Exactly spot on. True intelligence is measured by how concisely you can state a viewpoint or truth, and as usual it takes the perspicacious genius of VBN1C to cut through the extraneous BS.

And all this time Ive been forcing myself to write longer posts... hahaha...