Transference/Countertransference

[Chisholm]

Hi Dr Schwartz, in reply to your post ine the new member forum:

I would be most embarrassed myself if I thought I was embarrassing him but other than hint at the fact that I had feelings, I have not been at all forward. His red face has been a continuous feature of late as has been a lot of squirming around in his chair and a general sense of intimacy. His emails have all been very chatty and I guess in some cases flirtatious? He has said that he is unable to be declarative about his "feelings" and has said that he is concerned about the fact that he cannot be impartial any longer and that if I were to be referred, I would be able to "openly discuss" with the new therapist what had occurred betwen us. He also keeps on telling me that I am being "deliberately obtuse" about his feelings.

I get the feeling that he is loathe to discuss his feelings as doing so might constitute some sort of "professional misconduct" but I am very much out of my depth in this terrain? He says that although he is not able to be declarative of his feelings, he is able to be authentic about them and that I would be able to pick them up however he says, if they cause me "more distress or make me anxious", we have to discuss what to do. The only reason they make me anxious is that I am not clear on what they are!!! I suspect he has physical feelings but I can't be sure.

I would be mortified if I were embarrassing him but I'm hoping this is not the case. I just wish I knew what was going on but perhaps I had better think about the referral?

Guess his feelings don't make me feel safe after all?

Regards Chisholm

[Chisholm]

Further to the above, I have had another session and suggested to my therapist that it may be time to think about saying goodbye. He went very red and asked me whether I had lost or changed any feelings towards him. I replied that I did not think so. He then told me that he had not lost or changed any feelings towards me - again he said he could not be declarative about these feelings. He said that if his feelings "could balance out my own" but that if his feelings caused me "more anxiety/distress then I had to let him know" and we could discuss what to do. He then sent me an SMS after the session reiterating this. Help!!

[LaLa]

Hello, Chisholm,

I'm sorry I haven't read you previous threads, so I'm not "familiar with" your situation - I know only what you've written here. So I will have some questions:

How do you benefit from your therapy? What precisely caused your decision to "say goodby"? This is important to know. Was it only your confusion about your therapist's feelings toward you? Or are you disapointed by the therapy itself?

From my point of view, your therapipst is attracted to you, but he's able to "manage" it and doesn't feel the need to break the therapy because of his feelings. I think you can believe him. So there is a question how do you feel about him being attracted to you. I think discussing this with him (only theoretically - as "when I imagine that you could be attracted to me, I feel that...") could be an insightful part of your therapy. If you say goodbye, you loose this chance, but you also can discuss it with a new therapist. It's only your decison, my personel comment is that if your fear (or embarassement or I don't know which feeling) about him being attracted to you is your only reason to "say goodby", then... you "should" (-I don't want to tell you what to do, it's only my opinion) stay and give him a chance.

I'm looking forward to your answers!

[Guest SomethingOrOther]

Hello Chisholm,

I've not been in therapy, so my experience is very limited in that area. But from your posts it sounds to me like the conversations you are having are not very open. It's more like he put a little box on the table and then you've been told that there's something unspeakable in that box and then.. well, then he doesn't tell you what it is, because that would cause you more distress. Still, who wouldn't be completely focussed on the box, then?

I also thought, if changing the therapist seems like a big difficult step, maybe you can start with something smaller. It shows in many of your posts, that getting emails and messages from your therapist seems to disturb you, so would you think things would be easier, if that stopped? You could ask him to stop contacting you outside sessions, because that is unsettling to you. There's no need you'd have to stop verbalizing things in emails to him as well.

[Guest ASchwartz]

Chisholm,

He went very red and asked me whether I had lost or changed any feelings towards him. I replied that I did not think so. He then told me that he had not lost or changed any feelings towards me - again he said he could not be declarative about these feelings.

This quote is alarming to me as a therapist with more than thirty years of experience. Either your therapist is poorly trained, or is an amateur or incompetent, but, that is not the way to handle a patient who is wanting to leave therapy!!!!! It seems to me that he is dangerously close to violating legal and ethical standards by implying that he has "feelings for you as you for him." That sounds dangerously like an invitation to disaster and is strictly forbidden legally, ethically, etc. Therapy is a place where patients must feel safe, where there are clear boundaries and where a therapist helps a patient cope with his or her sexual and romantic feelings, if they come up.

In my opinion: I think you should leave this therapist for good, not return for another session and look elsewhere for a skilled, well trained professional.

Allan:(

[LaLa]

Hi again, Chisholm,

I'm sorry I was so positive in my post . I hope you'll consider Allan's reply to be the one to relate to, the one with the advise most suitable to "obey".

You can answer my questions, even so - if you'd like to

Good luck!

L.

[Chisholm]

I guess my head tells me to get out but my heart not. I do know that all the subtext makes me very anxious. I somehow think that he wants his feelings (whatever they are) to be a corrective emotional experience for me, that is why he says he can be "authentic" about them. The fact that he says that he cannot be declarative because it would "affect the safety element" between us - ironically it is the fact that he is not declarative that makes me feel unsafe. I am pretty certain that he cares about me very deeply and on that basis I hoped and trusted that he would not do anything stupid. I don't know what he means by "balancing out" - I assumed it was that we had similar feelings for each other and that I would somehow find this affirming/corrective emotional experience. Is this the invitation to disaster? Is the "chatty" email relationship unethical? I know that they say that when one has feelings for a therapist, one can often project these feelings and assume that he feels the same way - maybe that is what is happening here?

[LaLa]

The fact that he says that he cannot be declarative because it would "affect the safety element" between us - ironically it is the fact that he is not declarative that makes me feel unsafe.

Did you tell him this? I think he should know...

I would somehow find this affirming/corrective emotional experience

And do you feel that this would be a corrective experience to you? To be frank, I can understand it. And I don't know why this is so often called "disaster". Anyway, I'm sure we cannot "judge"/"assess" your situation only "at a distance". I'm back to my first opinion: You should discuss this all openly. Maybe by e-mail it would be easier for both of you. I like a lot the comparison by SomethingOrOther a lot: It's like a black box. And you need to "open it" or "run away". I'm sure it will be hard, but... it's possible.

What do you think?

[Chisholm]

It really is a weird situation to be in. Part of me wants to be held in firm boundaries but the other part of me wants to explore. I did tell him that I worried about his feelings (not that they made me feel unsafe) but he is absolutely adamant that he cannot be declarative. He says that I will be able to pick them up through "intuition and metacommunication". He has also told me that I am being obtuse about his feelings - maybe because I suspect that he has feelings and wont admit that. I did accuse him of "falling in love with me" and his response was to exclaim "Why won't you trust that?" Back to square one - that doesnt reall tell me anything. I want to trust that he really cares but all the hinting and innuendo makes me feel uneasy and I cant understand why it makes me feel uneasy.

On top of everything, he is married with 3 kids!!!!

[IrmaJean]

The thing is, Chisholm, he is supposed to protect the boundaries. He is responsible for keeping the therapeutic space safe. There is a power differential here and you are vulnerable. Contact should be limited to professional contact concerning your therapy, so I would have concerns about chatty email exchanges between you and your therapist. Transference can well be an affirming emotional experience in therapy, but the boundaries must remain held in place in order for that to happen. I'm concerned about you, chisholm.

[Chisholm]

I appreciate your concern - thank you. I don't know how to tear myself away from this because I have feelings for him. He did say that he was bending the boundaries because I struggled to verbalise so I assumed that he was trying to get me to open up and maybe trust him more. But the emails and texts have become more and more frequent and I guess some of them are fairly flirtatious but I assumed that that was his way of encouraging me. There is another thing, I struggle to show anger (it was always heavily censored in our family) and yet he seems to struggle with me showing anger (very seldom) towards him. He said something not so long ago that made me very angry - as usual I struggled to verbalise this. However in the following session I managed to tell him that the THOUGHTS "fuck you arsehole" had gone through my mind. He looked very aggrieved and at the end of that session, he asked me whether I had forgiven him??? He then proceeded to tell me the definition of hallway sex - when a married couple passed each other in the hallway and shouted fuck you at each other!!??

I do not know what sex has to do with anger?

[IrmaJean]

Chisholm, I understand that you have feelings and your feelings are very real, but they are not based upon a reciprocal type of relationship. Knowing this does not invalidate them, but these feelings can never be acted on. Likely the feelings are representative of certain aspects of yourself and are based on needs and desires that you may be projecting on your therapist. They may indeed speak more to you than they do to him. I understand that when you are in the middle of this, it's very difficult to hear words such as transference and projection. It's also possible that you have idealized your therapist to some extent as he has been treating you with kindness and support for three years now.

I understand how hard it must be for you right now to consider, but this does not sound like a healthy therapeutic environment to me and I am concerned that you could be hurt. Is it possible you might consult with another therapist about the nature of the relationship with your current therapist?

[Chisholm]

Funnily enough I had spoken to a friend who has her PhD in clinical psychology. She was concerned about the email relationship. She knows him to be a very genuine and intense person but was concerned that he had not had enough analysis himself. I get the projecting part stemming from needs that were never met by my parents re the idealisation, etc but I guess you cant project red faces, and his own admission of "having feelings that I must trust him not to act out on", that would "affect the safety element" and that would "balance out my own". He himself admitted that he is concerned that he "cannot be the impartial parent that I need".

I guess it comes down to trust - perhaps it would be good to learn that I am "lovable" or is this totally naive?

[LaLa]

perhaps it would be good to learn that I am "lovable" or is this totally naive?

No matter how and when this therapeutical relationship ends, you should take advantage of what happened and believe/learn that you are lovable . This is your most impotrant lesson from this hard situation .

[Guest SomethingOrOther]

It’s certainly good to learn that you are lovable.

But is it good to learn that you are lovable, as long as you put up with a situation that is uncomfortable for you? Do you think making your distress known, acknowledged and acted upon would make you less lovable?

I'm sorry if I'm getting this wrong, but I think in that case it wouldn’t be a valuable lesson to learn.

[IrmaJean]

Chisholm, I do think your therapist is struggling with this. That's not to say that he isn't a good person or that he has bad intentions, but it seems to me that he has stretched the boundaries and that his behavior is bordering on inappropriate. After I first left therapy, I spent some time over at another board before I came here. I had a need to express my feelings and talk about my therapy. At any rate, there were others there who were in similar situations as yours. I've seen this before, I've seen what can happen and all of the bells are going off in my head. I'm no expert on any of this, but it really concerns me. In counter-transference, he may be projecting too.

Of course it is wonderful to learn that you are lovable. But in a therapeutic relationship, the best way for the therapist to show he cares for you is for him to protect you within the boundaries of the relationship. If he feels unable to do this, then he should refer you to another therapist. Please be careful, Chisholm.

[LaLa]

Do you think making your distress known, acknowledged and acted upon would make you less lovable?

No, of course not. I'm sorry if you got this feeling from my posts. I wrote that they should tlak about her distress openly OR she should leave. That's my opinion. I know I'm too much influenced by my own experiences. I don't say I'm right. And I am afraid that I might do harm ... I'm only trying to contribute by another point of view. But when I see that somebody with much more experiences than me - as Allan and also IJ - says it's an alarming situation, I agree (I hope it's understandable from some of my previous posts). I only wish Chisholm to get all the possible positive consequences (or at least the one: that she is lovable, even thought "the man" has problems to "handle it" appropriately) from this difficult situation, thus I'm trying to find them .

[Guest SomethingOrOther]

Sorry, Lala, I wasn't replying to your post directly and I agree with you. I just wanted to give it a different angle, because I think Chisholm hasn't decided what to do yet and learning to be lovable serves more as an argument to continue the therapy as it is.

I can be wrong there, but I still thought it worth looking at more closely.

[Chisholm]

But perhaps he has stretched the boundaries because he is truly trying to get me to verbalise. ie the emails. Perhaps because I have feelings, I think I am seeing them in him. Perhaps I am reading too much into what he is saying because I want him to have feelings. Perhaps I am just fantasising. Perhaps he is just embarrassed and this is his way of covering up. I truly don't know what to think. And every time I try and get clarification, I get the standard "I cant be declarative about my feelings but I can be authentic and that I will be able to pick them up. But I am not an expert at interpreting subtext.

Taliking in circles I know.

[Symora]

Hi Chisholm, I can see how the situation would confusing. From what you have said I think your therapist is not very competent. My perception is that he is playing games with you, and I say this because he is very unclear and makes you run around in circles because of this lack of clarify. I feel he likes the fact that you have feelings for him (like it's good for his ego), and perhaps he is attracted to you, so he plays with this, but I don't think it is healthy for you because it always leaves you confused and chassing your tail as you say. I think he is acting less like a therapist and more like a married man liking the attention of another woman ...

He needs to be very clear about your therapeutic relationship, which he is not willing to do because of the sexual undertones which I think he gets off on. In my opinion this is not professional and is not to your advantage long term because it only leaves you confused and wondering about the <relationship> with him rather than on your reason for being in therapy in the first place. I think he is taking advantage of your vulnerability and there is no reason why he cannot be clear with you and use words you can understand instead of all these esoteric and confusing phrases that only leave you wondering. Perhaps you are the one who will have to be clear so that you can either get over this stage with him or move on...

Who needs a complicated relationship with a therapist ... there is enough complication in our lives to begin with, this should be a safe and simple place to be.

[Chisholm]

It is truly a weird situation and if it weren't for the fact that he quite freely speaks about "having feelings"(which he can't be declarative about), I might well believe that I imagine the entire situation. I have tried to get him to clarify and I have expressed the fact that I struggle with the lack of openess about the situation. He has indicated that his hands are tied. I then went about it in a different way and asked him whether he thought my judgement was impaired when I believed he had feelings for me - he replied that there was nothing wrong with my judgement but would say no more than this. I then asked him whether I projected these "positive" feelings from him, he said "in part" and asked me where my needs came from - I said from the parental neglect I experienced as a child. I then asked whether I projected a parental image onto him. He acknowledged this and said that, "I would not own certain empathic feelings in him, just as I would not own the exact same feelings in myself". I blushed because I know that the only feelings that I have not been open about are in fact my physical feelings and although I have suggested to him that he loves me, I have never openly suggested that he has physical feelings.

I think that he wants me to know his feelings (the ones that could "balance out my own") but he is unwilling to put his head on a block because openly expressing them would be some sort of professional misconduct?

I dont think balancing out means him "acting out" his feelings - maybe balancing out means "affirming". Sorry guys - I know that I am all over the place but I am honestly torn between my head and my heart and I guess the need to trust him (which may well have parental transference mixed up with a bit of idealisation in it).

[Guest ASchwartz]

Chisholm,

The problem with this is that he has a serious problem. It is his responsibility, both legally and ethically, to stop this competely and no longer have contact. I am sorry if I come across being inflexible but I do have a strong sense of right and wrong when it comes to patient, health professional relationships.

Allan:(

[LaLa]

No need to apologize, really! :(

[IrmaJean]

I agree 100% with Dr. Schwartz.

I want you to know that we are here to support you through this, Chisholm. I'm so sorry you're going through this.

I'm available by PM as well if you need to talk. Please take care.

[Chisholm]

I hear this and I appreciate the concern, I really do because it is tearing me apart. What I need to understand is what is the nature of my therapist's "problem" and what do the ethics say about this?

I guess if I could understand what the black and white says, I could try and decide what to do with the gray.