If you can't change your circumstance

[Resolute]

Logic can't tell you your life's purpose or your heart's desire but logic can be a useful tool in attaining those things.

logic, intellect, cleverness, resourcefulness, strong will, knowledge, etc. can't do squat by themselves, i'm afraid. oftentimes, a person is better off without them.

[IrmaJean]

Resolute and I are the same in this. I'm not one of those people who finds the trip worth more than the destination. If I don't know where I'm going or why, I feel frustrated and irritable. And if the trip seems pointless, I also feel frustrated and irritable.

That isn't exactly what I meant. I think most of us would want to see some progress when working toward a goal.

For me, the things that carry the most meaning are not the things that came the easiest for me, but rather the things that I had to work the very hardest for. That might not fit for either of you. My point being, though, that possibly hard work could feel rewarding if something positive came out of it.

[Resolute]

That isn't exactly what I meant. I think most of us would want to see some progress when working toward a goal.

For me, the things that carry the most meaning are not the things that came the easiest for me, but rather the things that I had to work the very hardest for. That might not fit for either of you. My point being, though, that possibly hard work could feel rewarding if something positive came out of it.

I'm sorry, I see what you mean now. I competely agree, but only if something positive did actually come out of it, which it normally doesn't in my case; thus my reluctance to even try most of the time.

i think that for me, my effort/non-effort or ease/difficulty don't have much to do with how rewarding something is. i believe that what determines how rewarding (or not) something is for me, are two things; 1. how badly i want/need something (goal). 2. how hard/easy and effort/effortless it is for everyone in general. to elaborate, the less accessible/achievable something is for others, the more rewarding and valuable it is to me. let's call this "exclusivity". exclusivity is very important to me. if everyone had a ferrari, it would be worthless to me, even tho i can't even afford a bicycle wheel. the other aspect is how much a thing (regardless of how rare/exclusive/hard or abundant/easy) matters to me. how easy or difficult (and how much effort i put in) it is to get what i want/need doesn't seem to affect the outcome much.

[IrmaJean]

More about the past...

Representations of situations and the implied meaning of people's behaviors toward us can occur in our minds, oftentimes unconsciously. Sometimes the ideas and thoughts formed are distorted and based on the understanding we have as very young children. We may then be applying all of this...outside of our awareness...to our everyday lives, even as adults.

So I might ask you, what determines how badly you want and need something? Is it a need of necessity or does want have some deeper meaning? Why the need for exclusivity and comparison with others? Is there a symbolic representation there and, if so, what does it mean?

You don't have to answer any of my questions. Looking at the past can uncover some thoughts we have that may be distorted. If we can see the why's, we may also see the distortions. If we can understand we may also begin to slow down the process and possibly change our responses in certain situations.

I'm not implying that your thoughts are distorted either, Resolute, though I think we all likely have some ingrained distorted thoughts based on representations formed during our childhood.

Just rambling on here from my phone. Hopefully it makes some sense.

[Resolute]

More about the past...

Representations of situations and the implied meaning of people's behaviors toward us can occur in our minds, oftentimes unconsciously. Sometimes the ideas and thoughts formed are distorted and based on the understanding we have as very young children. We may then be applying all of this...outside of our awareness...to our everyday lives, even as adults.

certain things are obvious even to the densest of people, let alone observant people such as me or klingsor. we can easily recognize women's disinterest in us. and being a man, what point would there be to my existence if i can't accomplish the most basic and essential task of attracting the opposite sex?

So I might ask you, what determines how badly you want and need something? Is it a need of necessity or does want have some deeper meaning? Why the need for exclusivity and comparison with others? Is there a symbolic representation there and, if so, what does it mean?

i believe that all humans inherently aspire (need) to excel and be winners in life. no one wants to be a nobody. you can't deny that most people have envy, jealousy, etc.. why else would they have such feelings if not due to such a primal drive to outshine others, or at least not be outshined by others?

You don't have to answer any of my questions. Looking at the past can uncover some thoughts we have that may be distorted. If we can see the why's, we may also see the distortions. If we can understand we may also begin to slow down the process and possibly change our responses in certain situations.

psychology is way too philosophical for me lol.

I'm not implying that your thoughts are distorted either, Resolute, though I think we all likely have some ingrained distorted thoughts based on representations formed during our childhood.

refusing to tolerate one's own loserhood is hardly a thought distortion.

Just rambling on here from my phone. Hopefully it makes some sense.

you're beginning to sound like klingsor.

a man who's masculinity is insufficient (in the eyes of millions or billions of women) is worthless as a man (tho he might be great as a human being). i imagine that many women would feel the same way about femininity.

[Resolute]

... I think we all likely have some ingrained distorted thoughts based on representations formed during our childhood.

each person's personality and consciousness are formed throughout his/her lifetime, and every aspect of a person's life plays a role in shaping his/her personality. aspects such as geographical, cultural, religious, climatic, environmental, genetic, educational, generational, etc., all play undeniable roles in sculpting an adult person. so what/who determines which ingrained thoughts are distorted and which aren't?

[IrmaJean]

I think a lot of our beliefs about ourselves and how we relate to others is formed during our childhood and especially the first few years.

If a child's primary caregivers don't allow the child free space to express feelings, for example, that person may feel shame for expressing their feelings throughout their life. If a child doesn't receive the attention they needed as a child, that person may feel unworthy of love even as an adult. Does that mean that person is unworthy of love? I don't think so. A child tries to make sense of situations in a very egoistic way because of a natural developmental stage. So problems...from a child's perspective...are often believed to be their own fault.

Even the way we relate to others and how we respond within relationships as adults may be in part based on our attachment styles or may be transferences that speak to our pasts.

As for knowing what may be a distortion or not, that's one reason why it can be beneficial to explore the reasons behind our thoughts, I think.

Attractive traits are in the eye of the beholder, I think. I have dealt with and sometimes still deal with feelings of inadequacy around my femininity. Those kinds of feelings can be deeply painful. I'm not outwardly overtly feminine. I don't wear makeup or carry a purse. I don't feel comfortable wearing dresses or high heels. I don't care much about jewelry. I prefer simple comfortable pants and sneakers. I like sports. And nearly every body part  of mine associated with femininity has some defect, if you will, or has been removed. Boys were not interested in me throughout my school years, up until college. At the same time, I  I feel very feminine on the inside. It helps that I am able to express this through my writing.

I do hear you that it's painful.

Just some food for thought...

[Resolute]

i'm really sorry about your issues with your femininity. did things improve (in terms of guys being attracted to you) after your school years i.e., from college onward?

regarding the "eye of the beholder" thing, as you may already know i'm not one to conform to social norms and herd mentalities, but there still is such a thing as conventionally/classically attractive traits in men and women accordingly. individuals of either gender have a legitimate concern if they lack in these traits.

[IrmaJean]

I have always felt compelled to help the men in SPS. I likely identity in some way with some of you, yes.

The paragraph of mine that you quoted is open expression from my heart.

My personal dismay has come from how unnatural it feels for me to try to express my femininity outwardly. It isn't that I don't want to...I feel very awkward. But yes I do want to express these inner qualities for all to see. Well, there is always writing.

Things did not change much for me in college, Resolute, but there was someone (my h) who found me attractive.

I can say that I feel mostly accepting of myself now, with some occasional setbacks. I hope all of you can find self acceptance as well.

I'm not sure how this has turned into a thread about me. I'm sorry, Victim. :/

[Small]

I feel something similar, where the person looking back at me in the mirror doesn't reflect how I feel inside. It's why I don't like socialising, in my private space, the inner me comes to surface but I conform to my outwardly appearance when around people. It does feel shitty and to date it's probably my biggest conflict. It isn't necessarily to do with gender/masculinity/identity for me though.

[Small]

I quite simply wish I was better looking. A bit taller with more aesthetically pleasing features. I know for certain though, that my idea of good looking is not what a woman typically looks for in a man.

[Resolute]

I quite simply wish I was better looking. A bit taller with more aesthetically pleasing features. I know for certain though, that my idea of good looking is not what a woman typically looks for in a man.

vampire/bat-like?

[Small]

Yas totally

[Resolute]

i just wanna comment on klingsor's post; unfortunately, physical attractiveness in both men and women has always been highly valued throughout history, not just in this shitty day and age. tho, perhaps, now more than ever.

[IrmaJean]

No worries, Klingsor. I always hope that our sharing can be helpful or at the very least we can understand one another better.

Resolute, don't you think that physical attraction is unique to the individual? Also, shared interests and personality traits can be attractive and then lead to physical attraction. I'm sure that a big part of the initial connection between my h and myself had to do with baseball. Our first date was a baseball game...

[Victimorthecrime]

IrmaJean and everyone, write whatever you want on any of my threads. I am totally cool w it.

I saw a thing on FB 25 actresses/celebrities without their make up. Katie Perry scarred the bejesus out of me! I am starting to wonder if anyone is truly good looking.

I happen to think I am very good looking and the women in my head agree. These chicks are haut too.

I am still getting mileage out of the "if you can't change your" blah blah mantra so hey whatever works.

[Resolute]

Resolute, don't you think that physical attraction is unique to the individual?

let me ask you a straightforward question, and i want a straightforward answer; in the following scenario: strictly in terms of physical attractiveness and masculinity, if we asked all the adult women and teenage girls in the world to each pick only the most attractive and/or masculine man from the following list: brad pitt, george clooney, pierce brosnan, danny devito, arnold schwarzenegger, tom cruise, joe pesci, hugh jackman, mel gibson, and bradley cooper. would you honestly be able to say - with a straight face- that if we added danny devito's votes and joe pesci's they would total more than 0.2% of the overall results? i'm quite certain that not even you would pick one of those two. mind you, i have nothing against these two actors, but if you've seen the movie "twins" starring danny devito and young arnie, you'd know exactly what i'm talking about.

Also, shared interests and personality traits can be attractive and then lead to physical attraction. I'm sure that a big part of the initial connection between my h and myself had to do with baseball. Our first date was a baseball game...

this might be true when it comes to some long term relationships (very few i'd imagine), but it doesn't usually apply to casual relations etc.... not only that, but who the hell wants to be in a relationship where he/she knows that their spouse is the only mate they could get? or that they must settle, because they can't do any better? i can point you to some instances of this in our very own sps forum.

we've all heard of "love at first sight". well, it's a big load of crap. what it really should be is: "lust at first sight". a good looking guy can have all the women he wants without having even one shared interest with any of them (other than sex). he doesn't even need to have money, a job, a degree (or even literacy), a personality, or even a brain. he can even have an extensive criminal record, but he'll still get all the chicks. whereas an ugly guy has to work unbelievably hard just so he might be able to get some of the crumbs. it's a huge slap in the face, to say the least. and i for one, simply can't accept it or live with it.

[Victimorthecrime]

I think if a guy is ugly and wimpy and lousy in bed then he is doomed but 2 out of 3 he has a fighting chance so long as he goes for it.

[Victimorthecrime]

That said I think there is more to life than sex. It's been the ruin of many a man. You get a girl pregnant and the story of your life is written, done. You'll be paying for that shit for the next 25 years. And there is no guarantee that the kid won't grow up to hate you.

[Resolute]

I think if a guy is ugly and wimpy and lousy in bed then he is doomed but 2 out of 3 he has a fighting chance so long as he goes for it.

i don't wanna be disagreeable but in most cases it won't get much further than "hello", and if knowing that doesn't make an ugly guy wimpy, then idk what will. hot women don't give ugly guys the time of day unless they were rich or had some other materialistic thing going for them.

That said I think there is more to life than sex. It's been the ruin of many a man. You get a girl pregnant and the story of your life is written, done. You'll be paying for that shit for the next 25 years. And there is no guarantee that the kid won't grow up to hate you.

if i was a hunk i'd get a vasectomy or something. problem solved.

[Resolute]

one thing that you don't seem to be getting (no offence) is that for some of us it's not about the physical gratification. i get physical gratification (to an extent) even from masturbating, and probably if i used certain "toys". the issue for some of us is egotistical gratification. feeling desirable and being validated and acknowledged as such. that's why things like prostitutes don't interest me one bit, even if someone else was picking up the tab.

[Victimorthecrime]

What percentage of guys say age 16-36 would you say are good looking? 10 percent? 20 percent? 30 percent? That leaves a lot of guys lonely, miserable, dateless, sexless and starved for ego gratification under your stipulations.

[Resolute]

What percentage of guys say age 16-36 would you say are good looking? 10 percent? 20 percent? 30 percent? That leaves a lot of guys lonely, miserable, dateless, sexless and starved for ego gratification under your stipulations.

not to worry—most guys are primarily after physical gratification.

[Victimorthecrime]

Nah the ego thing is every bit as much a part of it, especially for guys teens and twenties. Often times the sex lasted for 2 minutes but they talk about it for the next 20 years.

Is this the thing that bums you out most about life? If so there are lots of things you can do to get better looking: get fit, get contact lenses, get hair transplant, liposuction, nose job, elevator shoes, hire a stylist and dress better, learn the strategies involved in being a pick up artist and being a good lover. Make it your life's mission, go for it man, it's not that hard. Lots of women these days just want to get drunk and fuck. Remember, how you see yourself heavily influences how people see you.

[Resolute]

Is this the thing that bums you out most about life? If so there are lots of things you can do to get better looking: get fit, get contact lenses, get hair transplant, liposuction, nose job, elevator shoes, hire a stylist and dress better, learn the strategies involved in being a pick up artist and being a good lover. Make it your life's mission, go for it man, it's not that hard. Lots of women these days just want to get drunk and fuck. Remember, how you see yourself heavily influences how people see you.

victim, if you knew just how much research and thought i've done over the years, about how to improve my image (among other things), you'd be surprised. i know exactly what can and can't be done, what is and isn't practical, how much pain, time, work, energy, effort and money would be needed. i also know how much of an impact each of those things would have on my overall image. not to mention how old i'd be when done, and how many weeks (if any) left to "enjoy" the fruits of my labor... and the results are very discouraging.

the height thing for example is irremediable (there is a type of gruesome surgery that would literally require them to repeatedly break one's bones in certain places. the person must stay in the hospital for the whole duration, which is years. and then there's physical therapy afterwards. all of that for a couple of inches. this can only be done in one facility i think, and needless to say, it's not exactly cheap.), and i refuse to use illusory "solutions" like lifts (, wigs, etc.). after all, i'd still be short once the shoes come off.

a quality hair restoration requires multiple sessions and costs a pretty penny.

do you know what my idea of a really nice wardrobe would cost? really good cologne? shoes? cufflinks? watches? wardrobe consultants? and much much more. all of that still wouldn't have the necessary impact.

a hottie doesn't need to be a "pickup artist". again, you're missing the point. it's not about convincing women to sleep with me. it's about being able to turn heads (and i don't mean the heads of desperate women).

moreover, i'm not interested in drunk women. it doesn't exactly boost my ego to know that a woman is only sleeping with me because she's hammered.

and don't get me started on nose job horror stories lol. plastic surgery in general is a very bad idea except for the seriously disfigured. and liposuction is b.s..

do you know how depressing it is knowing that most of my problems (not just in terms of appearance, but i've mentioned that i have health issues as well) can't be fixed even by winning the lottery and hard work?

i will only make something my life's mission if it's: a. rewarding enough. b. achievable.

i'm sorry for being so bleak, but that's how it is with truth; it stinks.