Proof that Alcoholics Anonymous works

[JulianP]

............deleted

Edited February 4, 2010 by JulianP

[Ray Smith]

:confused:I have now made, I think, 5 attempts to submit my "Reason and absurdity" post, above, to the "Phoenix" thread in the "Readers' Comments" part of this site, for which it was originally intended. Since "Readers' Comments", in general, seems to be working, I am beginning to wonder whether the problem is really at my end ...

Yours mystified,

I'm unable to respond to any of Schwaerz's articles, haven't tried anyone elses lately.

I wrote to Dr. Schwarz yesterday, didn't get a response, but this morning I was unable to sign in, had to reset my password. Another coincidence?

It remains that the doctors here will not address facts and respond with testimonials, and that's not good enough. Too many people have found 12step lacking and are speaking out againt it. AA has been stalled or losing membership in the US ever since the first courts declared AA to be "religious in nature" and mandated AA to be a violation of the Establishment Clause.

(Note that neither Dombeck or Schwartz have addressed the legality of madated AA or the morality of pushing AA on a vulnerable clientele.)

Other methods that meet the criteria for Evidence-based practices are gaining in the US. I am surprised seeing this kind of thinking coming from mental health professionals in this day and age.

[John Rutledge]

deleted....

Edited October 28, 2009 by John Rutledge

[Mark]

All,

Several technical issues have contributed to the recent problems submitting comments. We were indeed transitioning some URLs - that is mostly done now so should no longer present a problem - and we had a software error that required some reinstallation of a module. I think it's all ironed out now but let me know if commenting issues persist.

Regarding the tone of this discussion, I don't like it much. No one is ever satisfied and the discussion goes in angry circles.

I recall a time when I was a high school student and liked a particular band a lot. I would force other people to listen to it at every turn and then demand to know if they liked the music as much as I did. Needless to say, a lot of people ended up just defaulting to not liking the music, not on the merits of the music, but instead on the merits of my not-so-stellar social presentation. I try to have better social skills these days. I wish some of the folks who frequent this multi-threaded conversation would do the same. I don't believe it will happen, though.

That malign felt the need to come in here and ask you guys to play nicely is telling. And sad. What it says to me is that there is a threatening tone to the conversation that is frightening people - and that is bad for the community as a whole which is bigger than this conversation. I can't have that continue long term.

I need there to be more civility; more politeness here. Less petulance; less angry demandingness. And yes - less repetition.

If you folks cannot volunteer it from within, I will ultimately take necessary steps (as minimally as I can do so) to enforce it from without. I know that will make me an unpopular figure, but so be it. I'm not here to be popular; I'm here to try to be useful to a broad group of people who are hurting. In order to function, this community needs to feel safe to all the people who would like to talk here legitimately. This includes people who are pro-aa, and people who don't care about aa one way or another, but are freaked out by the tone here.

Mark

Edited July 18, 2009 by Mark

[Ray Smith]

I recall a time when I was a high school student and liked a particular band a lot. I would force other people to listen to it at every turn and then demand to know if they liked the music as much as I did.

Mark

And the difference between insisting that we listen to AA testimonials, like them as much as you and Dr. Schwartz, and your high school analogy is...?

I feel that you and Dr. Schwartz have sidestepped any of the issues that have been brought up concerning AA, the 95% dropout rate, the higher mortality rate, and the various studies that show AA involvement resulting in worse outcomes than other treatment methods or no treatment at all. "It works for some people...", yes, but rarely for those with mental health issues and statistically no better than no treatment. These are not opinions, these are the facts that I base my opinions on.

Yes, I'm repeating myself, but neither of you has commented on these things, instead, offering testimonials of people who claim it has worked for them.

I'm all for having a reasonable discussion, but that involves both sides listening and not attempting childish games of "Gotcha!"

If you're truly interested in helping people who are hurting, don't you think you owe it to them to look at the facts about the program and the testimonials of the people here who talk about the harm they felt 12step programs have caused? A 95% dropout rate, doesn't that say anything to you?

[Mark]

Ray,

Since you are obviously in juvenile oppositional mode, even after I have made a clear request for less antagonism, and a clear statement that I will take action from without if you cannot manage it from within, I am placing you on a temporary ban. My hands are kinda tied; if I don't take some action I will have essentially reinforced you for disrespecting my request.

The ban will be for three days - it's a time-out, essentially. Please respect it, and do not post here, or on the main site until Tuesday.

I gather I am playing a role in some transference drama you are enacting, "the evil aa-loving mental health professional" - some version of the "man" who has put you down. Honestly, things are more complex than that. This is not a conspiracy to suppress your truth. I just please need you to not act like an angry oppositional child.

Mark

[Abbadun]

Hi Mark

I think that what gets people so hyper about dealing with the problems of AA is that there are so many of them. Most often while discussing the problems of AA we tend to focus one or two of the categories. What also exacerbates the communication is the absolute denial of the AA membership. AA will never change.

I work with Community Action Agencies, Community Associations, Grassroots Organizations all of them strive to improve their operations. I have and I am currently working in a Residential Treatment facility and it also strives to improve its operations as its funding sources suggest. Until we come to AA and 12 Step practices. omission is the most popular method of keeping the funding source in the blind. Federal and State Funding sources give seminars on diversity in recovery and how there are many roads to recovery, yet 12 Step meetings are the only support group recommended by the facility and a client who rather avoid 12 Step meetings faces having negative reports sent to their probation officers and court officers.

This is the Ethics that I have seen AA install in Residential treatment facilities. I ave never met a counselor in a Residential Facility who did not identify as a AA member or who did not always promote AA meetings as a primary aid to staying sober. These practices are not the act of using attraction to gain members, but method of intense promotion.

Similar is the practice of the Cooperation with the Professional Community (C.P.C.) committee whose mission is to have AA members talk to judges and doctors. Is this attraction?

In ending the problem of AA is too large to keep arguing piece by piece. Debates need to be more like the form of the Orange Papers which outlines the huge mess that is AA.

Yes AA does keep some people sober, but history has shown us that groups of people with bad ideology can do remarkable things and simultaneously do horrific things.

Abbadun

Ray,

Since you are obviously in juvenile oppositional mode, even after I have made a clear request for less antagonism, and a clear statement that I will take action from without if you cannot manage it from within, I am placing you on a temporary ban. My hands are kinda tied; if I don't take some action I will have essentially reinforced you for disrespecting my request.

The ban will be for three days - it's a time-out, essentially. Please respect it, and do not post here, or on the main site until Tuesday.

I gather I am playing a role in some transference drama you are enacting, "the evil aa-loving mental health professional" - some version of the "man" who has put you down. Honestly, things are more complex than that. This is not a conspiracy to suppress your truth. I just please need you to not act like an angry oppositional child.

Mark

Edited July 18, 2009 by Abbadun

[JustTrying]

I still am with whatever works works... However have you all thought that perhaps AA doesn't really want court ordered people there? I know I don't like them much. And perhaps that accounts for the high drop out rate ? Because, being made to do something to an alcoholic or an addict is a ticket to be defiant and not do it... They come to the meetings because someone court ordered them or their family made them etc... and they are only there to make "whoever" shut up. IMHO AA can be benificial to people who are ready to get sober and need the support. It is nice to listen to someone tell their story and say "hey, sounds like my life". I don't agree with the "lifetime" commitment or always recovering. I did like the comparison to the person that use to smoke.. They are an ex smoker ... not recovering... but like all addictions, chocolatte, smokes, beer, food , it could take just one....

I still attend meetings occasionally but I do not want to make AA/NA my WHOLE life. To me that would still be letting my addictions control me in yet another way. My goal is a well rounded life. And yes there are days I need to talk to another alcoholic/ addict....and days that I don't. I have not worked the 12 steps... although at the CDC I am going to have to, perhaps.... I don't know, I am getting a new therapist Monday perhaps I will speak t her about that.

Ok Peeps!!! Lets play nice ... we can all have our say without being .....

Hugs, JT

[Abbadun]

HI JT

I go to meetings and I like most of the people that I meet there, but that does not change the nature of what AA is and the need to let the public see the real AA with all the conflicts in its message, the reoccurring message that AA is the only way (despite any conflicting statements made elsewhere) in the literature, the AA Culture and its ideas about secular people and many other issues.

Abbadun

.........I still am with whatever works works... However have you all thought that perhaps AA doesn't really want court ordered people there? I know I don't like them much. And perhaps that accounts for the high drop out rate ?.................

Edited July 20, 2009 by Abbadun

[CarlosP]

Its sad and surprising that nobody is addressing the data and studies that Ray and others present, that at best shows A.A. to be not helpful -- A.A.'s claimed one year retention rate of 5% is about the same as the percentage of alcoholics who recover on their own in a year (spontaneous remission) and that at worst shows a higher mortality rate.

And if this data and studies hold up to close examination, then what about the morality of recommending such a program, especially to those with serious mental health problems, considering their very controlling sponsorship system and group pressure for conformity (despite what Tradition 3 says).

My own therapist doesn't think much of A.A., given the negative feedback he gets from his patients. And how some take from it a message of powerlessness and "don't think too hard -- you're best thinking got you in the mess you are in".

And what about A.A. lying about not being religious (tell me how is Step 11 -- "Sought through prayer and meditation to improve our conscious contact of God as we understand Him, praying only for knowledge of his will for us and the power to carry it out" -- how is this not religious? Only a prayer-answering deity fits "God" in Step 11 -- you can't pray to a Group Of Drunks (G.O.D.) or any other secular entity. And reading the other steps and Tradition 2, this entity called "God" is a favor-dispensing deity that restores us to sanity, removes our shortcomings, manages our lives, cares for us, loves us, listens to our prayers, gives us power, and guides our groups. Pretty clear we're not talking about something secular here.

At the very least, the program is endless proselytization about a prayer-answering favor-dispensing deity, and all the highest state courts and federal appeals courts that have heard these cases agree that A.A. is at least "religious in nature" and that based on the First Amendment Establishment of Religion clause -- people cannot be coerced to attend.

And why does the "Alcohol & Substance Abuse, Addiction" home page at

http://www.mentalhelp.net/poc/center_index.php?id=14&cn=14

list only 12-step groups?

-Carlos

[John Rutledge]

deleted....

Edited October 28, 2009 by John Rutledge

[Abbadun]

Hi Carlos

What other organization other than AA could write off the 95% or (a more modest rate of 75%) of people reported to reject AA and its ideology?? No Store, Counselor, Church, Doctor or any other entity could accept that much rejection of their services!

An even larger issue is all the state and federally funded programs which recommend AA to their clients even though AA's success rate is the percentage of that 5% that manage keep consistent time sober.

AB

Its sad and surprising that nobody is addressing the data and studies that Ray and others present, that at best shows A.A. to be not helpful -- A.A.'s claimed one year retention rate of 5% is about the same as the percentage of alcoholics who recover on their own in a year (spontaneous remission) and that at worst shows a higher mortality rate..........

-Carlos

[John Rutledge]

deleted....

Edited October 28, 2009 by John Rutledge

[Mark]

And why does the "Alcohol & Substance Abuse, Addiction" home page at

http://www.mentalhelp.net/poc/center...hp?id=14&cn=14

list only 12-step groups?

Mostly because it would benefit from a rewrite. We'll get to that as we have resources.

I think we have been addressing the arguments made by Ray and many others here. Of course, that is my opinion only. Is full agreement a necessary precondition of addressing something?

The present course of action has been undertaken by myself because in my judgment things have become aggressive rather than assertive, and that damages the community as a whole. I need this place to be one where someone who is happy in AA can post about that without fear of being run over by dissenting voices. Vice versa, I need this place to be one where someone who is very unhappy with AA can post about that without fear of being run over by dissenting voices. It's perfectly okay to speak one's piece. It is not okay to belittle, attack, etc even if you are in possessing of "superior facts" (as each side so vehemently believes to be the case).

Mark

Edited July 21, 2009 by Mark

[John Rutledge]

deleted....

Edited October 28, 2009 by John Rutledge

[Abbadun]

Hi Mark

I do not think that there has been any reason for people to take the comments here on a personal level, I have gotten that way while debating with AA members who respond to questions about AA with 100% denial or just totally ignoring the issue.

What I do think that the conversation here needs to accept that with AA or any Organization that the bad practices and ideology of the Organization far out weighs the good ones. This is true with any Business, Bank, Church, Civic Organization or Association. This is especially true of AA if medical facilities and state funded programs are going to recommend AA to the public.

AA has gotten a free ride because it is a free service willing to service a population (the addicted) that Society does not know what to do with. In the Rehab that I work in clients go bouncing from rehab to rehab to behavioral hospitals with the tax payer paying the entire bill. AA is having little if no effect even on the ones who feel positive toward AA, the ones that reject AA are simply pushed further away from sobriety. All of these Rehabs of last resort in my state are staunchly pro AA.

AB

Mostly because it would benefit from a rewrite. We'll get to that as we have resources.

I think we have been addressing the arguments made by Ray and many others here. Of course, that is my opinion only. Is full agreement a necessary precondition of addressing something?

The present course of action has been undertaken by myself because in my judgment things have become aggressive rather than assertive, and that damages the community as a whole. I need this place to be one where someone who is happy in AA can post about that without fear of being run over by dissenting voices. Vice versa, I need this place to be one where someone who is very unhappy with AA can post about that without fear of being run over by dissenting voices. It's perfectly okay to speak one's piece. It is not okay to belittle, attack, etc even if you are in possessing of "superior facts" (as each side so vehemently believes to be the case).

Mark

Edited July 22, 2009 by Abbadun

[Ray Smith]

Ray,

Since you are obviously in juvenile oppositional mode...

Mark

Mark,

So, now you're saying I'm like a defiant child? While you continue to sidestep any of the issues I've brought up? I like how you cast yourself in the adult role. I'd be more than happy to have an adult conversation, but so far, I've been talking at you, you do not respond. And you haven't been talking to me, you've been talking to the boards about me. You accuse me of repeating myself, but I do so because obviously, you're not listening.

I am not a child and do not expect to be treated like one. Juvenile oppositional mode? I've been posting facts that you don't want to examine. You and Dr. Schwartz like AA because you like AA and want to believe it works. I ask you all to examine the things I post and you use your positions to dismiss me. If you really wanted to silence opposition effectively, you'd prove me wrong.

And no, I'm not angry, Mark. Disappointed, not angry.

[John Rutledge]

deleted.....

Edited October 28, 2009 by John Rutledge

[Mark]

Ray,

... you continue to sidestep any of the issues I've brought up?

There seems to be an assumption being made on your part that it's my job or responsibility to address the issues you bring up to your satisfaction. This is not the case.

If you really wanted to silence opposition effectively, you'd prove me wrong.

I don't generally think you are wrong in the direction of your thinking. Just way over-zealous and intolerant.

I believe we have a similar understanding (shared with JR apparently) that empirically validated treatments are preferable to those which are not - but we diverge in terms of how this understanding ought to play out in practical reality. You are far more of a "purist" than myself, apparently, and I believe, far less respectful of other's choices when they disagree with your own. It is that lack of respect - for those who choose to support AA for their own reasons - and for myself when I had just asked you and others to cool things down for the good of the community - which I am labeling as childish behavior (or just hostile behavior if you like that term better) and for which I banned you temporarily.

Mark

Edited July 23, 2009 by Mark

[Guest ASchwartz]

JR and Others,

As always, you are a sensible man who takes a sensible stance, even on issues that others may not agree with. For example, while I do not agree with you about AA I know, from past experience, that I can exchange views with you and not feel personally attacked. You have also been enormously helpful in other discussions of alcohol and of various other mental health topics and without confusing or mixing the separate issues. For example, I am aware that you, in a very sensible way, responded to someone who stated that they have blackouts from alcohol and then said they do not have an alcohol problem. You were great in pointing them towards the reality of their situation.

On the other hand, there have been a few individuals who have been nasty and disrespectful to others, both myself as well as other people, when they state anything positive about AA. One example of a personal attack was when an individual sarcastically questioned my PhD, my skills as a therapist and even my honesty, when I made a supportive statement about AA. I find it impossible to not take those types comments personally, even though I realize that none of you know me personally. I guess its my weakness but personal attacks get under my skin when they are provoked for no other reason than stating my opinion and my experience. Then, when I do get angry, and that has happened, I am accused of being nasty while the person who originally attacked me is held up to be an innocent victim of my "meanness."

JR, with you and with 99.9% of the people who visit this web site it is possible to have a meaninful dialogue over many issues. Then, there is that tiny percent who seem unable or unwilling to express themselves without becoming offensive.

My wish is to have that open and respectful dialogue, without the insistence that I change my views nor the insistence that you change your views, in an atmosphere of trust.

Can we do it?

Allan

[Abbadun]

I think that a debates based on what each of our experiences in n AA has been is a waste of time, it is relative to what each person believes,

What I find that is unacceptable about AA is:

1. The printed bias and prejudice toward Secular people and Secular Lifestyles.

2. The many printed statements implying that AA and 12 Steps is the only way.

3. The printed statements that one must have a higher power to become sober.

4. The printed statements that have conflicting messages.

5. The printed statements that are false and never have been corrected.

6. The printed statement labeling other types of Sober people "Dry Drunks"

These are just the issues that I can think of on the fly, I could reference the Orange Papers for a much longer list. I can not think of any Organization with all the issues that AA has that I would recommend to anyone.

If asked I say that I drop in to AA meetings as a necessary evil. I tell people that other meetings are moving into my area and I will use them when they get closer or I get a more dependable car.

Ab

[Guest ASchwartz]

Hi Ab and all,

I agree with your statement:

I think that a debates based on what each of our experiences in n AA has been is a waste of time, it is relative to what each person believes,

So, instead of going ahead and listing what the AA statements that you find unacceptable, why not engage in a more useful discussion of what it is like to be addicted, how difficult it is to recover and maintain recovery and what we each know about other types of programs?

In fact, I have even wondered to myself if this preoccupation with AA and twelve steps is a way for each to hide discussing the more painful issues of each of our lives, our addictions and how we had to fight for recovery? In other words, this fixation on 12 steps is an Internet defense mechanism against more painful issues.

Allan

[Abbadun]

Hi Allan

I will do what you said and talk about addiction, but on another thread than this one.

I think that attacking 12 Steps was a big defense mechanism that kept me from becoming sober. Now after being sober for over 8 years and weening myself of AA being truthful about AA just seems like the right thing to do.

All the addiction self help groups are fighting over the same population and AA has a unfair monopoly. I live not far from Bill W's home which is now a museum and groups like SOS still have a long way to go before even one alternative group breaks into this area.

Everything that I have learned in college about Management, Change Management and Organizations tells me that AA should be able to deal with and correct its limitations if it was a healthy Organization. I think that discussion about the limitations of AA highlight the fact that the Organization will never change and maybe more people will realize they need to move on.

OK

Here are some of other topics we could talk about and what has helped me.

Buddhism, Steven Covey, Don't Sweat the Small Stuff, "Taming the Monkey Mind" by Thubten Choddron, "Sober for Good" by Anne M. Fletcher, proverbs from around the world and quotations.

When I get some free time I am going to read more of Virginia Satir because I only read her change management topics that pertained to business and I never knew that she was really a Family Therapist.

A lot of the stuff above have themes that have been borrowed by each generation for thousands of years. I think that what help me stay in AA was the fact that a Greek Philosopher, Abraham Lincoln and Bill W. all agree that we should take one day at a time.

AB

Hi Ab and all,

I agree with your statement:

So, instead of going ahead and listing what the AA statements that you find unacceptable, why not engage in a more useful discussion of what it is like to be addicted, how difficult it is to recover and maintain recovery and what we each know about other types of programs?

In fact, I have even wondered to myself if this preoccupation with AA and twelve steps is a way for each to hide discussing the more painful issues of each of our lives, our addictions and how we had to fight for recovery? In other words, this fixation on 12 steps is an Internet defense mechanism against more painful issues.

Allan

[Ray Smith]

Ray,

There seems to be an assumption being made on your part that it's my job or responsibility to address the issues you bring up to your satisfaction. This is not the case.

Mark

Seems to me that if you are promoting 12step as an effective form of treatment that you would be able to offer some sort of proof of its efficiency. That it works for "some people" isn't good enough when we are talking about people's lives.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

(Dr. Dombeck) "You are far more of a "purist" than myself, apparently, and I believe, far less respectful of other's choices.."

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

I have no problem with people who choose to join AA, but I believe in informed choice. I was pushed into AA and today, I see it happening to others. Whether it's the courts, government agencies, employee assistance programs, or even well-meaning professionals or family, 12step treatment is not a good fit for the vast majority of people as evidenced by the 95% dropout rate in the first year. It has the highest mortality rate of any of the alcohol treatment methods and I believe that is mainly due to suicides performed by members with mental illnesses.

It has been pointed out that as many as 90% of all problem drinkers never receive treatment of any kind (Hingson et al. 1980; Roizen et al. 1978; Stall and Biernacki 1986) and that 80% or more (Sobell et al. 1993; Treatment of Drug Abuse and Addiction — Part III, The Harvard Mental Health Letter, October 1995) quit on their own. These numbers dwarf AA's numbers, but they don't appear to be taken seriously in the treatment field. When a person recovers on their own they are invisible to the treatment professionals. Plus the fact that 12step treatment virtually owns the recovery industry suggests that there is little interest in recognizing these numbers or in establishing new treatment methods with greater effectiveness.

But all these numbers have to do with the general public. Studies also suggest that success in recovery has much to do with natural supports and the fear of losing social and economic standing (Waldorf et al. 1991). The clientele I work with have been marginalized already by moderate to severe mental illness and have little encouragement to live without drugs and alcohol. While AA might provide the encouragement, one must look at the downside, especially with a vulnerable population: the anti-medication faction, the predators, the insta-friends who disappear just as quickly when their mental health status becomes known. The rooms are difficult enough to navigate for those without mental health issues, but for those who have profound mental illnesses, it is a minefield.

Most of the clients I've worked with were not substance dependent, but substance abusers or casual users forced into treatment that dismisses their mental illnesses as products of addiction. AA establishes an alcoholic identity in its members that several have pointed out may limit social reintegration, what does it do to those who had no such identity before the rooms? In my experience, those who adopt the alcoholic identity get worse and research seems to agree: Outpatient Treatment of Alcoholism; A Review and Comparative Study, Jeffrey Brandsma, Ph.D., Maxie Maultsby, Jr., M.D., and Richard J. Welsh, M.S.W.; A controlled study on the use of court probation for drunk arrests,American Journal of Psychiatry, 124:160-163, 1967, Ditman et al. ; A randomized trial of treatment options for alcohol-abusing workers, The New England Journal of Medicine, 325:775-782, 1991, Walsh et al.

A good portion of the program is based on ego-deflation, is this proper treatment for those who come to AA with existing self esteem problems?

And when is it justified to place delusional people in a program that tells one they must seek "through prayer and meditation to improve our conscious contact with God"?

Mark, I came across something you wrote elsewhere:

“Part of the reason that it [abuse] is sometimes so difficult for people to recognize when they themselves are being abused is because their self esteem – their personal culture – has been either dominated and invaded by the abuser or was never strong – such that abuse in not recognized as abuse because it is perceived instead as deserved punishment."

Many in AA are primed for "deserved punishment". It is a contradictory program that absolves and instills guilt at the same time and is motivated by fear. The program is never wrong, only the individual, any success belongs to the program while any failure is the failure of the individual. Imagine that you had a penicillin resistant infection, would you doctor keep giving you more penicillin and berate you for "not trying" if you didn't get better? When the conventional treatment for most illnesses was blood letting I imagine those prescribing it met those who did not believe in the practice with the same sort of retorts, that it works for "some people" and demanding that the dissenters provide a new method that performs better. When a treatment fails to perform better than no treatment it does not matter if another treatment is ready, although in this case, there are many.

If AA wants to call addiction a disease. then by all means treat it as a disease, with medication and therapy, not faith healing. When the American Cancer Society evaluates cancer methods, they start by asking three questions:

Has the method been objectively demonstrated in the peer-reviewed scientific literature to be effective?

Has the method shown potential for benefit that clearly exceeds the potential for harm?

Have objective studies been correctly conducted under appropriate peer review to answer these questions?

AA is a placebo, it cannot stand up to scrutiny.

If I was trying to come up with an anti-therapeutic concept, I don't think I could come close to "powerlessness" . As it is explained in the rooms, "I can do nothing about my drinking, God fix me." While many find this concept attractive, I find it difficult to work with those who have embraced it. Another difficult AA concept is Step 2's "Came to believe that a Power greater than ourselves could restore us to sanity." What happens when their "Higher Power" does not remove their mental illness or their desire to drink? It is a very slippery slope when you start mixing God with recovery and worse when you do it with people who have mental health problems; a relapse can cause a crisis of faith more devastating than any relapse.

Dr. Mark Ragins (Village Integrated Service Agency, LA, CA) states that there are 4 stages in mental health recovery: (1) hope, (2) empowerment, (3) self-responsibility and (4) a meaningful role in life. He describes empowerment as "access to information, ability to make choices, assertiveness and self-esteem" . Most of these are in conflict with the program of AA. Some of the thought stopping slogans employed by AA:

"Don't go into your mind alone; it's not a safe neighborhood. "

"Your best thinking got you here."

"You have a thinking problem, not a drinking problem."

"Utilize, don't analyze."

These and the hundreds of other AA slogans do not foster hope, empowerment, self responsibility or provide healthy meaning on which to base one's life.

At the risk of being told that I'm repeating myself, that I'm suffering from oppositional defiant disorder, or being banned, I will say again, AA success rate for the general public is lower than the rate of spontaneous remission and the success rate for those that have coexisting mental illnesses is practically nonexistent. That it works for "some people" is based on what? Some of the 5% of AA members that liked the program so much they stuck it out for a whole year?

Claiming I'm aggressive rather than assertive is a cop out Mark. I'm asking you to examine things you don't want to examine. I offer the facts on which I base my opinions and present them in a logical manner. I do the same with people in real life and have been called a real pain, but not aggressive. Not sure if you're reading into my remarks or stating it for effect. Calling me aggressive is just another way of dismissing me and attempting to sway the other readers by attacking my character rather than the facts. So was the crack about people believing they have "superior facts" when you offer NO facts.

[Ray Smith]

Welcome back, Ray (aka "Matthias),

The only Matthias I know was the saint that replaced Judas in the apostles.