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The Power Of Porn


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I don't think it follows that to pass a law against A. You are required to pass one against B. and having passed that one you have to do C. etc.

A law banning pornography will spawn other similar legislation eventually. It sets a precedent for censorship.

(now you can play the Nazi card :)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin%27s_law

I would never do such a thing ;)

people will still do it but at least children would have a better chance to stay children a little longer.

You could say the same about violent TV shows or video games, which have been proven to desensitize people to real-world violence. I had a link somewhere in one of my old posts. So, I suppose we get rid of Hollywood, and have everyone play Scrabble?

Porn is no worse than any of these other things responsibly enjoyed by society.

Ideally, imo we should not NEED a law against porn people should avoid it instinctually much as one avoids stepping on a snake. But I think a lot more people are going to have to be bitten before that happens:(

You're right - We shouldn't need a law. In fact, we don't need one. Like I said, go look at the Muslim world. Porn's illegal. Do they treat their women to your standards?

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A law banning pornography will spawn other similar legislation eventually. It sets a precedent for censorship.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin%27s_law

I would never do such a thing ;)

You could say the same about violent TV shows or video games, which have been proven to desensitize people to real-world violence. I had a link somewhere in one of my old posts. So, I suppose we get rid of Hollywood, and have everyone play Scrabble?

Porn is no worse than any of these other things responsibly enjoyed by society.

You're right - We shouldn't need a law. In fact, we don't need one. Like I said, go look at the Muslim world. Porn's illegal. Do they treat their women to your standards?

People in large groups can't live without law...and don't. Law is inescapable. even if we voided all man-made laws we would still be subject to nature laws. So the question then becomes who will make the laws and what laws will be made. If one looks at the rise in the social health indicators (divorce, crime, suicide, etc) it is clear that we in the west have been sinking fast in the last few generations. Which indicates something is terribly wrong with our system...our laws..

You mentioned Muslims. While it may be true that Muslim women don't have many of the rights of men, they have AS MANY rights imo.

fyi Islam is the fast growing religion (with many famous westerners abandoning Christianity in favor of it, You are probably familiar with Cat Stevens) My impression is there are more female converts than male, I think this is because women want to feel valued for something other than their bodies or "attractiveness" They want to be valued as people.

Also about half the marriages in the west break up after seven years, but divorce is not nearly so common in Islamic countries So they have stable families...seethe movie "Namesake"

Furthermore, the veil is a CHRISTIAN invention if I am not seriously mistaken.

Bottom line, they have laws against booze, drugs, free sex (porn) and as a consequence have few of the problems that are killing the west. But unfortunately the "spread of democracy" is beginning to infect their culture, no wonder they are pissed

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What does 'raised as human beings' mean to you?

I thought about looking at the link that you posted but i'd like to know what YOU think.

Raised in a loving, respectful atmosphere, with parents who love each other, and treated as people in their own right rather than merely somones kid. the difference between "This is my SON!" and "This is MY son!"

asking a kid how THEY feel and what THEY think goes a lot further than dictating and punishing. fyi Punishment has been proven long ago to have only a short term affect and can creat problems within the kid that can last a lifetime....Dscipline and punishment are not not the same.

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People in large groups can't live without law...and don't. Law is inescapable. even if we voided all man-made laws we would still be subject to nature laws. So the question then becomes who will make the laws and what laws will be made. If one looks at the rise in the social health indicators (divorce, crime, suicide, etc) it is clear that we in the west have been sinking fast in the last few generations. Which indicates something is terribly wrong with our system...our laws..

You mentioned Muslims. While it may be true that Muslim women don't have many of the rights of men, they have AS MANY rights imo.

fyi Islam is the fast growing religion (with many famous westerners abandoning Christianity in favor of it, You are probably familiar with Cat Stevens) My impression is there are more female converts than male, I think this is because women want to feel valued for something other than their bodies or "attractiveness" They want to be valued as people.

Also about half the marriages in the west break up after seven years, but divorce is not nearly so common in Islamic countries So they have stable families...seethe movie "Namesake"

Furthermore, the veil is a CHRISTIAN invention if I am not seriously mistaken.

Bottom line, they have laws against booze, drugs, free sex (porn) and as a consequence have few of the problems that are killing the west. But unfortunately the "spread of democracy" is beginning to infect their culture, no wonder they are pissed

Wow - I just don't know what to say to that.

Islam is the fastest growing religion because a man can take many wives. Prominent men can father 50 or so kids. Islam is the largest religion because they out-breed everyone else. And that is literally the only reason.

So you're telling me this is in no way degrading to women?

One of the main duties of the wife is to contribute to the success and blissfulness of the marriage. She must be attentive to the comfort and wellbeing of her husband. The Qur'anic ayah which illustrates this point is:

"Our lord, grant us wives and offspring who will be the apples of our eyes and guide us to be models for the righteous"

The wife must be faithful, trustworthy and honest she must not deceive her husband by deliberately avoiding conceiving. She must not allow any other person to have access to that which is exclusively the husband right i.e. sexual intimacy. She must not receive or entertain strange males in the house without his knowledge and consent. She should not be alone with a strange male. She should not accept gifts from other men without his approval. This is meant to avoid jealousy, suspicion and gossip. The husband possessions are her trust. She may not dispose of his belongings without his permission.

A wife should make herself sexually attractive to her husband and be responsive to his advances. The wife must not refuse her husband sexually as this can lead to marital problems and worse still - tempt the man to adultery. The husband of course should take into account the wifes health and general consideration should be given.

Obedience.

^^^^^^^^^

The purpose of obedience in the relationship is to keep the family unit running as smoothly as possible. The man has been given the right to be obeyed because he is the leader and not because he is superior. If a leader is not obeyed , his leadership will become invalid -Imagine a king or a teacher or a parent without the necessary authority which has been entrusted to them.

Obedience does not mean blind obedience. It is subject to conditions:

(a) It is required only if what is asked from the wife is within the permissible categories of action.

(;) It must be maintained only with regard to matters that fall under the husband rights.

http://www.jannah.org/sisters/marr.html

And the reason more marriages last, is because men do not want to marry a non-virgin muslim woman. In fact, some of the women have surgeries to replace their hymens.

http://www.buzzle.com/articles/islam-and-virginity-hymen-repair-surgery-controversy.html

That's what you're looking for? I think any further conversation about this is moot, since you clearly have a different definition of the phrase "respect for women" than I do.

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This debate is getting far too polarized, in my opinion. We're identifying the person speaking with the ideas they express. We're identifying religions with the societies in which they are practiced. We're taking things out of context and throwing them at each other.

Even on a debate forum, I suspect that that form of argument would be reined in. More so on this one, which is dedicated not to winning arguments, but to helping people.

I would like to request that everyone participating in this debate take some time before continuing. As I have said earlier, it is not the ideas being expressed, but the way that they are being expressed, that is a problem.

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Women can't drive cars and if they commit adultery they get stoned to death. Yeah women get treated equally well over there. Just like a young 15 year old girl who was gang raped by three men, they were let off and she was hung.

That's how we want our women to be treated? Sorry women should have the right to choose what they want to do in their life. If they want to take their clothes off, have sex on screen and make a shitload of money then good luck to them. If they have the looks why can't they show it off? We were all born naked, clothes are a man made thing.

I'm a bit tired of this women get exploited in porn. Some of them do. sadly it's true. It happens in all lines of work though. People get exploited and used at times. A lot of these women are pretty happy, they live in apartments and houses we could only dream of and I'm pretty sure they wouldn't swap their lives with most of us on here.

I don't defend capital punishment for any crime, and I never said the islamic system was perfect, just more stable (better) than the west. We execute innocent people quite often, or did before DNA testing anyway And the there are the millions of of abortions, which is murder of the most innocent (if you consider them human...most of the free sex people don't)

Anyway, this is I think, evidence that porn gets its power from an approving society. Islamic countries don't approve it so they don't have it and many of the problems that are associated with it, drugs, suicide,etc.

As for driving, you will have to ask the thousands of Christian women who convert to Islam annually why they are willing to give it up so that they can wear the veil...Maybe they are ex-porn stars looking for more punishment...sorry, couldn't resist that one. :(

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I don't defend capital punishment for any crime, and I never said the islamic system was perfect, just more stable (better) than the west.

That's a personal value judgment e.g., that stability is a better social goal than freedom of expression. The issue has little to do with whether Islam is preferable to Christianity, and more to do with conservativism/orthodoxy vs. liberalism/secularism cutting across many religious/social traditions.

May I ask that you take this discussion back towards sexuality rather than go down the path of "my religion is better than yours"? That road goes nowhere productive and is not appropriate for this forum.

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May I ask that you take this discussion back towards sexuality rather than go down the path of "my religion is better than yours"? That road goes nowhere productive and is not appropriate for this forum.

All religions warp the natural fundamentals of sexuality, so there is most definitely some relevance... as the first sentence of the first post illustrates. They all take a simple, natural act, and turn it into something disgraceful or degrading unless performed within specified boundaries. True?

The discussion had nothing to do with who's religion was better. It's about how two different people have two completely different ideas of what the term "respect for women" means.

We can't discuss "respect for women" as it relates to pornography without clearly defining what we consider respectful. By using the example of Islamic fundamentalism, it's become clear that, because we define "respect" differently, we cannot have a meaningful discussion about whether or not pornography is disrespectful / amoral / etc.

Simple.

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All religions warp the natural fundamentals of sexuality, so there is most definitely some relevance... as the first sentence of the first post illustrates. They all take a simple, natural act, and turn it into something disgraceful or degrading unless performed within specified boundaries. True?

The discussion had nothing to do with who's religion was better. It's about how two different people have two completely different ideas of what the term "respect for women" means.

We can't discuss "respect for women" as it relates to pornography without clearly defining what we consider respectful. By using the example of Islamic fundamentalism, it's become clear that, because we define "respect" differently, we cannot have a meaningful discussion about whether or not pornography is disrespectful / amoral / etc.

Simple.

Its about mental health.

Married people live longer than others on average, which I feel is one indicator of a healthier lifestyle.

Its about value and dignity.

Some religions push polygamy, which naturally leads to the loss of value for women (in that they are not considered equal, but one of many)

Also, some believe asexuality is healthy, but we know from the recent and ongoing child abuse scandels in a well known religion this is not always the case, it may be ok for the predator priests, but definately not for their child prey. Because of the Duplication Theorum, many of these kids will themselves become abusers, adding yet another link to the chain of abuse.

This is a primary factor in the growth of the porn industry in the first place...early sexual abuse. (most porn actors freely admit to having been abused sexually in childhood, and many of incest) Again, they are playing out in the adult film the reality they learned as a child. And while they may make a "shitload" of money, no amount of money can repair their damaged ego.

Its about balance.

Monogamy (one man, one woman) has historically offered the best chance at happiness for the greatest number of people. Mathematically speaking, for every person that has multiple partners their is another who has none...this is not fair, nor is it healthy emotionally. Again, the porn industry offers mute testimony to this universal truth...the death rate for porn actors from suicide whether intentional or drug overdose is astronomical.

Then there is the other extreme which is just as unhealthy...no sex, no partner, no social contact. This is, or can be, even worse than prostitution and/or so-called "free sex"

When people are...unbalanced... emotionally, its probably because they learned this as a child, by getting too much or too little of something. (we learn what we live) Therefore it is I think, impossible to examine ourselves on the level needed without looking at and disscussing the whole milieu of our existance. It is like studying the branch and ignoring the tree imo.

I do agree that this thread is becoming less about exchanging usful information and more about attacking and defending, I only wish there was a place where we could go to "let it all out" and get feedback from others, etc.

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Well, we're trying to make this entire forum a place where we can all let stuff out and get feedback. However, there is only one way that any place can achieve that for everybody, and that is, with everybody's cooperation. We have to allow all the other people to hang out, too.

We've actually done pretty well, with this conversation, so far. At least, I hope no one feels too deeply wounded. We haven't all agreed, but I hope that wasn't in anybody's list of expectations.

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Well, we're trying to make this entire forum a place where we can all let stuff out and get feedback. However, there is only one way that any place can achieve that for everybody, and that is, with everybody's cooperation. We have to allow all the other people to hang out, too.

We've actually done pretty well, with this conversation, so far. At least, I hope no one feels too deeply wounded. We haven't all agreed, but I hope that wasn't in anybody's list of expectations.

Yeah, I wouldn't say it's out of hand or anything. It's just at some point, when two people's baseline principles vary enough, they'll just go back and forth with different examples, philosophies, etc., and never really agree on anything. No sense in debating at that point. =P

My view, in a nutshell:

Sex sells because it is repressed and has value... Just like any other thing in high demand and limited quantity. Commercial pornography capitalizes on that value. In a society free of the influence of religion, sexuality would not be demonized, people would be properly educated about it, pornography would have much less relevance, and some of us would not even end up on these forums in the first place.

Besides, respect and honor are earned not by obeying predefined restrictions, but by what you would choose to do in the absence of those restriction. Don't mistake obedience for honor.

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Enigma is a good debater all right :( I have been fascinated by this conversation, and am quite tempted to jump in .... what fun!

I was raised Christian, but ended up a child of 60s, new age, free speech, free love, throw it all out the window! Then I had kids and I started thinking about things differently, and I divorced from my husband, and then life really changed. And I got older, and I saw the sense in some moral and more <traditional> values. Of course through it all I have been a woman of my generation, liberal, emancipated, strong and independent. Then I met this African fellow that completely swept me off my feet. I also found a faith that swept me off my feet at the same time.

He is Muslim, which I really knew nothing about back in 1995, and I am Baha'i, as modern a faith as it gets, but with a message that is solidly anchored in its predecessor's texts - the Torah, the Bible and the Koran.

And there the debate began. It was wonderful, fantatic debate, and it lasted 15 years. I learned an awful lot about exactly what Mark speaks of -- conservativism/orthodoxy vs. liberalism/secularism during those years. In fact I think this clash it is the largest debate of our time and it will shape much of our future world.

Communication is challenging between these two polarities because they come from such different world views. If it was computers we would call it different programming - I cannot tell you how frustrating it was to talk together sometimes because his programming was so different from mine. Traditional societies operate based on way of doing things that is ancient, - it is the essence of life, reproducing the past, the ancestors, the ways of doing things that have stood the test of time. The beauty of it, the glory of it is in the oral tradition, the stories, and one cannot stray for the <way> without bringing dishonour, shame to the whole - I don't think we have anything to compare to that on the west. Sure, we have guilt and shame, but it is not intricately tied to bringing dihonour to your lineage, to your family's story....

My X recently married a 20 year old back home while we were married, and looked down on me for not accepting to forgive that and just move on. My feelings were not even considered. He told me a long story that had convinced him that taking more than one wife was noble, which supported the polygamist tradition of most of Africa. A 6,000 year old story about a man who asks an old sage if he should take another wife, and the old sage tells him that he will learn much about himself if he does, that he will learn how to be more magnaminous, more just, wiser, it will elevate him spiritually and bring him closer to God! He was so emotional in telling it, and he felt by the end that I would be swept away with the beauty and the wisdom of this ancestral story...

I replied that there was never one single mention of a woman in that story, no mention of what she was made to bear, that women's rights had come a long way since then, and that I personally had no interest in living that emotionally torturing situation. He looked down on me for that, for not being forgiving, open to accepting <la petite> into the fold, to breaking up what we had built over 15 years, to being so selfish. He had absolutely no feeling whatsoever for what I was going through, and that man loved me, but as Hell2Breakfast said, I had become one of the many, and I had become like a beloved sheep at that point. So I walked out the door, and he preferred to stay with tradition even though he feels nothing for the girl, not yet anyway. When they talk about him it will be with dignity, and they will tell stories of how he married a beautiful girl from the clan, how he went out to seek adventure for a very long time, but came back and did his duty. People in the village will sing of his worldly adventures, but as he grew older he came to his senses and went back to tradition, the only way that truly makes sense in the world (a bit of tear shedding at this point.... sniff!) Does that sound beautiful or what? When I went to Senegal I was complete mesmerized by the fact that my reality and this reality could coexist on our same little planet at the same time...

So there, a little bit of an insider's point of view, :) There is a huge difference in mindsets between traditional/secular societies. I think both have something to offer. Traditional societies can be archaic and just plain stupid in this day and age, and modern societies can be so laissez-faire that it is like a hedonistic orgy where nobody does anything worthwhile for the advancement of civilization. I think there is a big issue in Islam with regards to a patriarchy that is long from being dead, but I like the modesty of the women and the strong commitment to family.

I am obviously of a more modern mindset, more future oriented. I had great hopes of being to demonstrate via our relationship that you could transcent race, religion, cultural mindset, but alas, it is much more difficult than I had previously anticipated :-)

I say we put all the elements in a bowl on the table, take each one out and debate the crap out of it, with respect, until the product that comes out at the other end makes sense so that future generations can be proud of us...

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Yeah, I wouldn't say it's out of hand or anything. It's just at some point, when two people's baseline principles vary enough, they'll just go back and forth with different examples, philosophies, etc., and never really agree on anything. No sense in debating at that point. =P

My view, in a nutshell:

Sex sells because it is repressed and has value... Just like any other thing in high demand and limited quantity. Commercial pornography capitalizes on that value. In a society free of the influence of religion, sexuality would not be demonized, people would be properly educated about it, pornography would have much less relevance, and some of us would not even end up on these forums in the first place.

Besides, respect and honor are earned not by obeying predefined restrictions, but by what you would choose to do in the absence of those restriction. Don't mistake obedience for honor.

Sex itself is not repressed. certain kinds of sex is, as it should be imo. And unhealthy sex sells to unhealthy people, thus is approved by an unhealthy society.

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Enigma is a good debater all right :( I have been fascinated by this conversation, and am quite tempted to jump in .... what fun!

I was raised Christian, but ended up a child of 60s, new age, free speech, free love, throw it all out the window! Then I had kids and I started thinking about things differently, and I divorced from my husband, and then life really changed. And I got older, and I saw the sense in some moral and more <traditional> values. Of course through it all I have been a woman of my generation, liberal, emancipated, strong and independent. Then I met this African fellow that completely swept me off my feet. I also found a faith that swept me off my feet at the same time.

He is Muslim, which I really knew nothing about back in 1995, and I am Baha'i, as modern a faith as it gets, but with a message that is solidly anchored in its predecessor's texts - the Torah, the Bible and the Koran.

And there the debate began. It was wonderful, fantatic debate, and it lasted 15 years. I learned an awful lot about exactly what Mark speaks of -- conservativism/orthodoxy vs. liberalism/secularism during those years. In fact I think this clash it is the largest debate of our time and it will shape much of our future world.

Communication is challenging between these two polarities because they come from such different world views. If it was computers we would call it different programming - I cannot tell you how frustrating it was to talk together sometimes because his programming was so different from mine. Traditional societies operate based on way of doing things that is ancient, - it is the essence of life, reproducing the past, the ancestors, the ways of doing things that have stood the test of time. The beauty of it, the glory of it is in the oral tradition, the stories, and one cannot stray for the <way> without bringing dishonour, shame to the whole - I don't think we have anything to compare to that on the west. Sure, we have guilt and shame, but it is not intricately tied to bringing dihonour to your lineage, to your family's story....

My X recently married a 20 year old back home while we were married, and looked down on me for not accepting to forgive that and just move on. My feelings were not even considered. He told me a long story that had convinced him that taking more than one wife was noble, which supported the polygamist tradition of most of Africa. A 6,000 year old story about a man who asks an old sage if he should take another wife, and the old sage tells him that he will learn much about himself if he does, that he will learn how to be more magnaminous, more just, wiser, it will elevate him spiritually and bring him closer to God! He was so emotional in telling it, and he felt by the end that I would be swept away with the beauty and the wisdom of this ancestral story...

I replied that there was never one single mention of a woman in that story, no mention of what she was made to bear, that women's rights had come a long way since then, and that I personally had no interest in living that emotionally torturing situation. He looked down on me for that, for not being forgiving, open to accepting <la petite> into the fold, to breaking up what we had built over 15 years, to being so selfish. He had absolutely no feeling whatsoever for what I was going through, and that man loved me, but as Hell2Breakfast said, I had become one of the many, and I had become like a beloved sheep at that point. So I walked out the door, and he preferred to stay with tradition even though he feels nothing for the girl, not yet anyway. When they talk about him it will be with dignity, and they will tell stories of how he married a beautiful girl from the clan, how he went out to seek adventure for a very long time, but came back and did his duty. People in the village will sing of his worldly adventures, but as he grew older he came to his senses and went back to tradition, the only way that truly makes sense in the world (a bit of tear shedding at this point.... sniff!) Does that sound beautiful or what? When I went to Senegal I was complete mesmerized by the fact that my reality and this reality could coexist on our same little planet at the same time...

So there, a little bit of an insider's point of view, :) There is a huge difference in mindsets between traditional/secular societies. I think both have something to offer. Traditional societies can be archaic and just plain stupid in this day and age, and modern societies can be so laissez-faire that it is like a hedonistic orgy where nobody does anything worthwhile for the advancement of civilization. I think there is a big issue in Islam with regards to a patriarchy that is long from being dead, but I like the modesty of the women and the strong commitment to family.

I am obviously of a more modern mindset, more future oriented. I had great hopes of being to demonstrate via our relationship that you could transcent race, religion, cultural mindset, but alas, it is much more difficult than I had previously anticipated :-)

I say we put all the elements in a bowl on the table, take each one out and debate the crap out of it, with respect, until the product that comes out at the other end makes sense so that future generations can be proud of us...

Thank you for sharing that Symora. Its clear you have much to contribute to this subject.

What is your view on why society is so polarized today between conservative/liberal etc? From an anthropological perspective. Do you think machines have upset the historical balance of power between men and women and society is trying to adjust?

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Well.... I come at it as a Baha'i, so here goes...

Bahá’ís believe that there is one God, that all humanity is one family, and that there is a fundamental unity underlying religion. They believe that the coming of Bahá'u'lláh has opened the age for the establishment of world peace, when, as anticipated in the sacred scriptures of the past, all humanity will achieve its spiritual and social maturity, and live as one united family in a just, global society.

I believe that man is an evolving being, and that man is called upon to carry on an ever advancing civilization. I also believe that since time immemorial we have been offered insights into our true nature by prophets, enlightened beings who widened our understanding of our spiritual nature, the realm towards which we continue to evolve. These prophets have given us a foundation upon which to base our belief systems, moralities, there are few societies on earth that have not be touched by them, whether it is Abraham, Krishna, Buddha, Zoroaster, Jesus, Mohammed or Baha'u'llah. They all give insights into higher spiritual realities about the nature of man, and as we evolve the message they offer us continues to evolve as well. As a Baha'i I believe that Baha'u'llah brought us the most recent message during the 19th century, and I was convinced of this as I studied what had happened on earth since His coming. His is a message of the unity for the whole human race, the equality of the sexes, equality of the races, equality of religion. He even goes as far as to say that the who point of religion is to unify mankind, to help us live together in unity, and that if the essence of religion is distored to the point of causing strife and disunity, then that religion has lost its way... This is the fault of humans and all religions fall prey to this as they age, they lose their original light and get all distorted with dogmas, outdated traditions, distorted interpretations.

From my perspective, a new breath of understanding was infused into humanity with Baha'u'llah's message, as it was when the previous messagers came before him. One of those clear messages is that men and women are equal partners, two wings of the same bird, and that until women are accepted as such mankind will never able to fly to its potential. He also says that if you are to educate one child, educated the girl, because she will pass on her knowledge to her children, her community, and that education is fundamental to the uplifting of mankind.... So I don't see the evolution of women's rights as a consequence of something that was caused by the industrial revolution or the world wars for example, but an inevitable next step in mankind's evolution towards it's true potential ... granted, we have a heck of a ways to go, but I hang unto the fact that it is inevitable, and I see that since the mid-nineteeth century we have come further in establishing equal status for women than we had in all of man's history before then... so there is hope :-)

As to polarized societies, I think that the old ways have to go down for a new reality to emerge. What was good for the past is no longer good for our collective future. But this clash of civilizations as I see it is not going to happen without turmoil, and we just happen to be living in an age where the pot is boiling rather dramatically ... I take solace in the Baha'i message of hope for the future, that in the next millenium we will in fact know peace on earth, the golden age of man as we move to a collective maturity as a species.

Man, don't get me started on this subject, I could go on for days ! :-)

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I'm so sorry your not feeling well h2b, did you get some kind of virus?

Here I am writing as if it was a book, and you write two lines back... I almost feel guilty :o But, you did ask a question so I'll sit by your bed and entertain you while you just rest and get better... ;-)

Ok, so Islam and my view of women. Well, I think Muslim women are women too. The ones I met are very family oriented, take their roles in the family very seriously and are proud of their work as mothers, wives, caregivers, employees. Yep, they're women.

My issue is more with the men :) I think there lies the crux of the issue. The boys have to get with the program.... there are many privileges to being a traditional culture Muslim man, you get treated really good, or thats the theory anyway. There is one ultimate authority in a traditional Muslim home usually, and that's the man. That does not mean that in reality the woman cannot often have a character that will make her ultimately the true boss, but for appearance's sake it the man. They see men as being ruled by logic more than emotion, by their very nature, so that they are better at making the final decision, and women, by her nature, having innate emotional qualities that make her better at nurturing and understanding the human dynamic of situations. So they complement each other in fact, which is good for the family, the kids, society, etc.

Where I see an issue is that logic has been given too much weight, so that man sees himself as being superior to the woman and interprets the writings, and everything else out there, in a skewed manner. He has become arrogant in my opinion. Anothing thing I don't find healthy is these enormous gatherings of men only together, even in the Mosques. Too much testosterone with no balancing estrogen in the mix - I see trouble brewing there :-). In more traditional Muslim cultures, the men don't mix that much with the girls, there are lots of taboos, and I think it can easily degenerate into an enormous pissing contest, IMHO of course. They then need to find an enemy to direct all that male fighting and hunting energy, and then things start going all awry... They get too dominant at home, at work, in the Mosques, in politics, overall just too darn bossy. Then with time they turn all these things into rules, and everyone's gotta defent all those rules, and then it goes all awry again... Get more women in positions of power and I think it should restore the equilibrium quite a bit :-) A few generations should do it I think with the internet, but patriarchy is not going down without a good fight I think ... millenia of programming is not going to change overnight. Then again, maybe our future generations will be so linked up with communication devices that we won't even know if they are men or women and it won't matter....

This is of course all based on observation and does not reflect the thoughts of our present sponsors :)

I was very lucky in that I knew my 100 year old grandma very well, I had heard her stories over and over during my whole lifetime, and when I came upon the mindset of the Muslim culture in Senegal, I thought it was quite a bit like the era when my grandmother was raised. Church and faith was very important back then, people were modest, a woman could not show her ankles for examples, every meeting with a prospective aspirer was supervised and one did not go out on <dates>. Respect was to the parent and children were expected to help out and be obedient. Tradition was important and the role of family, the larger extended family, was central to life, because literally if something went wrong your survival often depended on family. Women had few choices about what they would do with their life because most women never got educated (I know this is no longer true in the middle east and much of the Muslin world... but in many more traditional societies it continues to be true today). The man was the boss and did pretty much what he wanted, while the women were mostly assigned to household responsiblities and caregiving. The man's word was not to be challenged, although I can tell you that even back then women had character and did find ways to get their way, at least in my grand-mother's house that was the case! Hers was basically an arranged marriage, a cousin of a cousin, the only men that entered the house basically, and it was a means for her to built a life for herself outside the family home, an independende which she craved, so she was OK with it. She thought he was a good man, but never really loved him. She talked a lot about that in her later years, that she too would have liked to know love, but she was never allowed out of house to make her own choices, so she just rolled with what was available to her. He died 10 years into their marriage, and she never remarried.

In my eyes there is much we need to relearn about time tested approaches to living together, caring for each other, loyalty to long term relationships, we've perhaps thrown out the baby with the bath water so to speak, and there are good things about religion to be retained so that we can better live together... I think that in a good Muslim family, as in a good Christian or Zoroastrian family, those spiritual values of patience, tolerance, charity, consideration for the other, are all values that individuals aspire to and therefore try to put into practice. Where they lose me is the tradition thing, and the honour thing. I think much of that is silly and supports artificial dogmas that have nothing to do with religion - in fact I think they are meant to support an self-serving patriarchy. To kill another man for God, that is absolute nonsense, crazy people do that. I think the crusades taught us that. Killing another man for oil, or riches, or power, or territory, that's another story to be debated at a later date :-)

Well, are you asleep yet? (she tiptoes quietly out of the room, shutting the lights behind her...)

I hope you feel better soon, h2b, I'd love to get your point of view on all this....

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I'm so sorry your not feeling well h2b, did you get some kind of virus?

Here I am writing as if it was a book, and you write two lines back... I almost feel guilty :o But, you did ask a question so I'll sit by your bed and entertain you while you just rest and get better... ;-)

Ok, so Islam and my view of women. Well, I think Muslim women are women too. The ones I met are very family oriented, take their roles in the family very seriously and are proud of their work as mothers, wives, caregivers, employees. Yep, they're women.

My issue is more with the men :) I think there lies the crux of the issue. The boys have to get with the program.... there are many privileges to being a traditional culture Muslim man, you get treated really good, or thats the theory anyway. There is one ultimate authority in a traditional Muslim home usually, and that's the man. That does not mean that in reality the woman cannot often have a character that will make her ultimately the true boss, but for appearance's sake it the man. They see men as being ruled by logic more than emotion, by their very nature, so that they are better at making the final decision, and women, by her nature, having innate emotional qualities that make her better at nurturing and understanding the human dynamic of situations. So they complement each other in fact, which is good for the family, the kids, society, etc.

Where I see an issue is that logic has been given too much weight, so that man sees himself as being superior to the woman and interprets the writings, and everything else out there, in a skewed manner. He has become arrogant in my opinion. Anothing thing I don't find healthy is these enormous gatherings of men only together, even in the Mosques. Too much testosterone with no balancing estrogen in the mix - I see trouble brewing there :-). In more traditional Muslim cultures, the men don't mix that much with the girls, there are lots of taboos, and I think it can easily degenerate into an enormous pissing contest, IMHO of course. They then need to find an enemy to direct all that male fighting and hunting energy, and then things start going all awry... They get too dominant at home, at work, in the Mosques, in politics, overall just too darn bossy. Then with time they turn all these things into rules, and everyone's gotta defent all those rules, and then it goes all awry again... Get more women in positions of power and I think it should restore the equilibrium quite a bit :-) A few generations should do it I think with the internet, but patriarchy is not going down without a good fight I think ... millenia of programming is not going to change overnight. Then again, maybe our future generations will be so linked up with communication devices that we won't even know if they are men or women and it won't matter....

This is of course all based on observation and does not reflect the thoughts of our present sponsors :)

I was very lucky in that I knew my 100 year old grandma very well, I had heard her stories over and over during my whole lifetime, and when I came upon the mindset of the Muslim culture in Senegal, I thought it was quite a bit like the era when my grandmother was raised. Church and faith was very important back then, people were modest, a woman could not show her ankles for examples, every meeting with a prospective aspirer was supervised and one did not go out on <dates>. Respect was to the parent and children were expected to help out and be obedient. Tradition was important and the role of family, the larger extended family, was central to life, because literally if something went wrong your survival often depended on family. Women had few choices about what they would do with their life because most women never got educated (I know this is no longer true in the middle east and much of the Muslin world... but in many more traditional societies it continues to be true today). The man was the boss and did pretty much what he wanted, while the women were mostly assigned to household responsiblities and caregiving. The man's word was not to be challenged, although I can tell you that even back then women had character and did find ways to get their way, at least in my grand-mother's house that was the case! Hers was basically an arranged marriage, a cousin of a cousin, the only men that entered the house basically, and it was a means for her to built a life for herself outside the family home, an independende which she craved, so she was OK with it. She thought he was a good man, but never really loved him. She talked a lot about that in her later years, that she too would have liked to know love, but she was never allowed out of house to make her own choices, so she just rolled with what was available to her. He died 10 years into their marriage, and she never remarried.

In my eyes there is much we need to relearn about time tested approaches to living together, caring for each other, loyalty to long term relationships, we've perhaps thrown out the baby with the bath water so to speak, and there are good things about religion to be retained so that we can better live together... I think that in a good Muslim family, as in a good Christian or Zoroastrian family, those spiritual values of patience, tolerance, charity, consideration for the other, are all values that individuals aspire to and therefore try to put into practice. Where they lose me is the tradition thing, and the honour thing. I think much of that is silly and supports artificial dogmas that have nothing to do with religion - in fact I think they are meant to support an self-serving patriarchy. To kill another man for God, that is absolute nonsense, crazy people do that. I think the crusades taught us that. Killing another man for oil, or riches, or power, or territory, that's another story to be debated at a later date :-)

Well, are you asleep yet? (she tiptoes quietly out of the room, shutting the lights behind her...)

I hope you feel better soon, h2b, I'd love to get your point of view on all this....

Thanks for "reading" me to sleep last night :)

Our beliefs are similar, and yet different in some ways, I believe God is Nature and most if not all the religions of men are mans INTERPRETATION of natures laws. This would imo go a long way toward explaining why religions evolve (change) over the course of history ( the more knowlege we get about the laws of nature, physics, biology, etc. the more we have to update our religion....usually 500 to a 1000 years after the fact.

However, since the laws of nature are in fact what men BASE their belifs on certain aspects of religion remain solid "thou shalt not kill, lie, steal, etc. are after all Natural laws because killing is not a good survival strategy from an evolutionary standpoint (in Nature one kills only to survive) Man is far, far past needing to kill for survival, we have birth control, and if we used it intelligently we could reduce the population...along with 80 % or the worlds problems imo, the other twenty % could be solved if we ALL lived in harmony with natur itself rather than some ones egotheistic interpretation of it.

Example: all are equal before a bolt of lightening, but it takes a bolt of lightening to remind us of that otherwise we are all consumed in pursuing NOT being equal, but being superior...to greater ensure our survival. But what if we took this into account; we all want to survive....therefore, we must pass laws that ensure our survival. limiting the population is one sure way of increasing the chances of the survival of future generations.

While I am all for freedom, how free are a bunch of sardines in a can (tenement slums, projects etc.) It is instructive to note that china burst fourth as a world power after instituting a one-child policy, and third-world countries continue to be third-world because they can't feed all the kids.

This represents just one instance where we are ignoring the "law of diminishing returns" a law of Economics (Natural law). There are many others.

The law of Survive and procreate soon runs up against the law of "Territorial Imperative" lest we procreate ourselfs to death. so you can see that Natures laws are self-balancing, and if man would get out of the way, and even help a little, mans self-fulfilling prophesy of Armaggeddon need not happen at all imo

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I watched a documentary about that just the other night, about how population is growing exponentially and it is foolish to think it is sustainable. I think my faith in a way is nature based as well, or perhaps I should say cosmos based :) There are laws to the universe, laws of physics, laws of nature, laws to quantum physics we are only beginning to explore. And the more we learn about those the more we learn about ourselves, since we also are the stuff of the universe. I see God as being the primal point of that, perhaps <love> in its purest for, the energy of attaction that holds all of it together, while at the same time infusing it with its essence. I think the prophets in fact tell us about that essence, what the rules of the game are, what to do so that the body of humanity becomes healthy instead of ill like we can be, educators of the quantum side of who we are perhaps....

Boy I'm way out there today ... I sound like Steven Hawking, who by the way I watched speak a few nights ago for an opening of Canada's Perimeter Institute dedicated to the study of theoretical physics and the origins of the universe and structures within it. Now that's a job!:eek:

Are you feeling better today h2b?

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I watched a documentary about that just the other night, about how population is growing exponentially and it is foolish to think it is sustainable. I think my faith in a way is nature based as well, or perhaps I should say cosmos based :) There are laws to the universe, laws of physics, laws of nature, laws to quantum physics we are only beginning to explore. And the more we learn about those the more we learn about ourselves, since we also are the stuff of the universe. I see God as being the primal point of that, perhaps <love> in its purest for, the energy of attaction that holds all of it together, while at the same time infusing it with its essence. I think the prophets in fact tell us about that essence, what the rules of the game are, what to do so that the body of humanity becomes healthy instead of ill like we can be, educators of the quantum side of who we are perhaps....

Boy I'm way out there today ... I sound like Steven Hawkins, who by the way I watched speak a few nights ago for an opening of Canada's Perimeter Institute dedicated to the study of theoretical physics and the origins of the universe and structures within it. Now that's a job!:eek:

Are you feeling better today h2b?

Steven Hawkins for president!!

I am feeling better thank you had a little to eat earlier, now if it will STAY down.

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Sex itself is not repressed. certain kinds of sex is, as it should be imo. And unhealthy sex sells to unhealthy people, thus is approved by an unhealthy society.

Dude. Sex is absolutely repressed. You've never heard of abstinence? There is no such thing as unhealthy sex, just unhealthy attitudes towards sex... And unhealthy attitudes towards sex are mostly rooted in religious tradition.

The same religious traditions that brought you witch burnings and honor killings. Speaking of honor killings, here's a 17 year old Muslim girl being kicked and then stoned to death:

http://www.facebook.com/?ref=home#!/video/video.php?v=133559440007177

Here's a 911 call from a dying girl who's father shot her and her sister to death in the back of a cab in the name of 'honor':

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1rT_jm0pW6c&feature=related

MmmmMmm - Smells like fresh honor in here. You're right though, it's really tragic that Western culture is creeping in and ruining such a beautiful tradition.

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Dude. Sex is absolutely repressed. You've never heard of abstinence? There is no such thing as unhealthy sex, just unhealthy attitudes towards sex... And unhealthy attitudes towards sex are mostly rooted in religious tradition.

The same religious traditions that brought you witch burnings and honor killings. Speaking of honor killings, here's a 17 year old Muslim girl being kicked and then stoned to death:

http://www.facebook.com/?ref=home#!/video/video.php?v=133559440007177

Here's a 911 call from a dying girl who's father shot her and her sister to death in the back of a cab in the name of 'honor':

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1rT_jm0pW6c&feature=related

MmmmMmm - Smells like fresh honor in here. You're right though, it's really tragic that Western culture is creeping in and ruining such a beautiful tradition.

Sex is not repressed, ever hear of marriage or sex between consenting adults? Ever hear of pornography?

You link religion and murder using anecdotes to condemn whole societies...You should know better.

Communist dictators have killed more people than all the religions put together, Nice try though:D

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