About being small and being small

[Mark]

its not like I can walk around with a shirt that says, my dick is small leave me alone.

Just to play devil's advocate, why not? You could in fact do this, and while it would alienate a lot of people and cause a number of others to giggle at you behind your back, some number of people would read it, get it and not be phased and with those people you'd be on safer ground because it's all out in the open. Like the way some people deal with blackmail by simply admiting the dirty secret that someone is trying to blackmail them with. They may lose their career, but there is always something new after something old goes away (until you're dead).

I think the main thing that keeps you guys so crazy is the shame of it all. I agree that there is a lot of "You should feel ashamed" being broadcast at you from the culture. However, whether you agree to receive that message and take it on and *feel ashamed* is potentially under your control. It comes down at some level to how you will decide to define yourself. Self-definition is always a social process, but it is also something that you can make personal decisions about as well. So in this case, it is a matter of balance. If you decide that social opinion is what ultimately defines you (which is the conventional pattern with this small penis shame/anxiety stuff), then you're screwed. Some few people decide that, while they hear the chorus loud and clear, that they will not be defined by it, and they do their own thing. And they pay for it with rejection by the mass of society, but then they win by finding those other "freaks" who don't see their stigmata as all that bad. You can't have it all, I agree, but I think there is an identity position which can be carved out where you don't have to accept the shame and be weighted down with it so much.

I always push meditation as a practice which might help because I think it has the potential to help you get disembedded from the shame and see it for what it is - something people are urging on you, but not something that you have to accept.

[Recluse]

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[nearlydead]

JP said: You have probably answered this before on this forum, but since I jumped in only recently, did something specific happen when you were 13?

Born with undescended testicle, followed by yearly appoinments with specialist, had the op to correct at 11, gets round the school I have had testicles removed, bullying. 13 School amalgamates with girls school, I get debagged and girls tell me I am small, even though I had not started puberty. 17 first gilrfriend to see me says I am small. 19 lose virginity girl tells all I am small, then so on and so on. Bullied, answer by voilence ends in prison. affects rest of shit life. 10 years recluse, longest conversation in that time 8-10 minutes. Age 45 performance anxiety ED, Scar from op, small and now requiring circumcission, depression, there is little to feel positive about regarding my penis. My penis is a war zone.

I doubt that it is your size that compelled you to do that, but rather experiences which hurt you on a far deeper and more profound level than size alone would induce.

Again this is the "chicken and the egg" scenario, have I expierenced life as I have because of my small penis, or would I have been the same anyway. Maybe, but my penis has always been a problem and continues to be.

I agree that most of this mindset is not helpful, and that if I can soften this position there is room for improvement within myself. I am at the stage where I am beginning to recognise this, but dont actually believe what I am trying to tell myself. But its a better place than the last 30 years.

Mark Said: I think the main thing that keeps you guys so crazy is the shame of it all. I agree that there is a lot of "You should feel ashamed" being broadcast at you from the culture. However, whether you agree to receive that message and take it on and *feel ashamed* is potentially under your control. It comes down at some level to how you will decide to define yourself. Self-definition is always a social process, but it is also something that you can make personal decisions about as well. So in this case, it is a matter of balance. If you decide that social opinion is what ultimately defines you (which is the conventional pattern with this small penis shame/anxiety stuff), then you're screwed. Some few people decide that, while they hear the chorus loud and clear, that they will not be defined by it, and they do their own thing. And they pay for it with rejection by the mass of society, but then they win by finding those other "freaks" who don't see their stigmata as all that bad. You can't have it all, I agree, but I think there is an identity position which can be carved out where you don't have to accept the shame and be weighted down with it so much

This totally makes sense, at the end of the day the solution for us, is as I have said before 1) To fully believe that our size means nothing to us. 2) That anyone else's opinions mean nothing.

As this is truly the only cure, I am not optimistic.

Mark, do you have any links to meditation resources. All I have been able to find is stuff put up by lental eating wrong un's.

[JulianP]

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[nearlydead]

At the age of 13, the year was 1977, a very different time. Student welfare consisted of a kick up the arse, and a clip round the ear. My parents would fall under the Busy, detached, catorgorys. Not kissy kissy loving, nor unduly voilent, I used to get a slap if out of line, as was usual in those days. I hold no resentment of my parents. Lack of confidence is something my mother, father and myself suffer from. Me and my father cover this up with bravado or voilence.

I can see how if I had been brought up in the ideal situation you describe, that I could of interpreted situations, scenarios differently. But Im in the business of "now" Looking back is OK and maybe useful to some, but not unduly beneficail to myself, although open to the idea maybe. My new idea is not to dismiss anything that may be beneficial in changing my current perceptions. Most of it feels very alien, even the language, but Im trying to at least "sit with it awhile"

[JulianP]

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[Mark]

What I can't deal with is rejection from women due to this. I don't need to feel ashamed of myself for this but any woman who I interact with sexually I want to be able to please them sexually and to have them view me as a viable man. A woman rejecting me based on size is something I can't handle.

Can we talk for a moment purely about the feeling here that you cannot tolerate and not the reason for it? What is it about this feeling that you cannot tolerate?

Some years ago I was active in a yoga practice and I had to deal with pain all the time - completely self-imposed yes - but occurring whenever I'd practice and push my limits. Not gut wrenching pain but real pain nevertheless. A teacher suggested that I distinguish between pain that is destructive and pain that is constructive, and that helped me to tolerate it better. Another teacher suggested that I breath through it and talked about the golgi reflex which basically amounted to - if you can hang in a position for a bit and tolerate the pain, the pain will lessen because your body part will relax some.

I relate this because I question whether it is really the case that you cannot tolerate this situation. I know it is painful, and pain always sucks yes, but there are times when it is beneficial to tolerate some "constructive" pain.

Is this possibly a fruitful direction for discussion do you think?

[malign]

Another thought that has occurred to me, in another context, is, are you hurt because this one single woman rejects you, or because you generalize that to mean that all women will reject you, for the same reason?

My own experience is that they're all different, thank god. :-)

[nearlydead]

JP, Ok I get what you mean now. I have thought back to that debagging and the girls who called my on my size. At the time I was devasted, which was also added to with bullying over supposedly having no testicles. Thinking back on it recently (1yr or so) I realised that I had not gone through puberty, and niether had my tormenters, so what they said at the time was just kids being kids, about a topic (sex which is funny to kids of that age) It was just unfortunate that it was confirmed as truth, in later interactions with women and the measuring tape. What are the chances eh! How would I handle the situation now with hindsight, yeh differently.

"constructive pain" is....... challenging truths and discovering lie's.

Another thought that has occurred to me, in another context, is, are you hurt because this one single woman rejects you, or because you generalize that to mean that all women will reject you, for the same reason?

Hurt, then fear of hurt again. Dating for us is like playing "Battleships".

Malign, how are you getting on with that old school dating thing:)

[malign]

Well, I told you I was a virgin at 40, didn't I? :-)

Nobody's perfect, ND. If you're lucky, you survive.

[lifeless existence]

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[lifeless existence]

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[curtailed]

I wonder if the pain of yoga has ever lead Mark to consider suicide? Because that's what we're talking about here - something so painful that some of us have thought about killing ourselves. And now it's been suggested that repeatedly experiencing rejection due to penis size may be beneficial in that if it happens enough, we may just become "used to it" and it won't hurt as much. We're not talking about a benign body part here. We're talking about a body part that is deeply connected to the male psyche. This is the part of our body that carries the most weight in terms of what makes us male rather than female. It's tied to a man's pride and his feelings of self-worth, not so much by choice, but more by human nature itself. For a female to label our penis as inadequate is incredibly damaging at a very, very deep level. To be rejected, or even just living with the fear of rejection, due to it's size is a horror that those not in this position can't even begin to fathom. It strikes at our very core. It leaves us feeling like we're not even men. No amount of exposure to something this emotionally traumatic can ever be deemed as "constructive." Should a soldier with PTSD be sent back to the battlefront with the advice that witnessing additional acts of war will increase his resistance to emotional trauma? I certainly don't think so. This isn't muscle pain that one can get used to and even draw motivation from. Each subsequent negative experience only serves to further intensify the type of pain that we feel.

I like the analogy with PTSD and war veterans. I think I read somewhere that they were building computer simulators to make PTSD-suffering ex-soldiers go through their trauma situations in real-life-like situations, but where they were in the safety of a computer simulation. The point was that they could control the situation and feel the deep emotions in a safe environment. Sounds therapeutic enough to me and if someone is pouring money into it, it probably has benefits to it. What I want is to able to feel control about my ability as a lover, something I've always lacked.

Taking that a step further is interesting: what if we went out there wearing shirts that informed people of our size (of course people could never tell beforehand) and see how people reacted. I live in a small town where I'd get famous real quick but I could maybe do it once a year.. anyway, the idea has been brewing in my brain. If and When it came time to lower our pants in the bedroom, the situation would be notably easier to handle. The weird thing about going out and broadcasting sexuality is that it tends to create unexpected results The other result I was hoping to get was to get comfortable enough with lowering our pants so that we could start learning to live "just like the other guys." If we're already not living in enough pain, why not give it a shot?

Also, I'm aware there exist men who don't care about their penis size even if they are small... This baffles me and I would love to hear about it from anyone who is in this situation. How were you treated when you were with a woman for the first time? How did it go? Did she ever comment on it? Do you feel indifferent about it?

[IrmaJean]

I think, ND, that when you look into the past and discover the "whys" of now and understand where it all comes from, it becomes much easier to recognize a false belief for what it is and shake it loose.

I understand that facing women again feels risky and frightening, but you are such an engaging guy. There are some women who would surely appreciate you. Part of what I wrote of during one of our discussions about this about recognizing someone for who they are...well I think that you are shining through here even online. Once you told me that my writings about the meaning of love and such were making you "mad with rage". Back then I might have felt a little bit hurt by that, but now I would just smile...because I recognize and know that is just ND being ND. And that is what it's all about. You being you. That's a beautiful thing.

I know you are upset and hurting, Lifeless...but I don't think that Mark was suggesting that your pain is beneficial...but that perhaps facing your deep inner pain by exploring it and trying to understand the reasons behind it might help you to work through it and eventually reach the other side. "Constructive" would be taking your experience and using it as a tool to help you move forward and away from the pain in this. You've been hurt by some women and you are clearly suffering. I think that all of us recognize that, Lifeless, and are very sorry for what you are now experiencing. None of us here want you to be hurting, LE.

[Recluse]

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[nearlydead]

I wonder if the pain of yoga has ever lead Mark to consider suicide? After being hung by the Golgi's, I bet he considered it.

[Mark]

I wonder if the pain of yoga has ever lead Mark to consider suicide?

:confused:Well, no, of course not. In making the comparison, I'm searching for an analogy for getting across a point - not trying to suggest that the two kinds of pain are identical. I hope that much was clear, and if it was not, I'm clarifying.

There's a suggestion in this quip that I "just don't get it", and I'll own that. This is not one of my issues so I necessarily come at it from the outside. But that does not mean that I'm incapable of offering something useful for you to think about.

My question has to do with becoming able to tolerate a painful experience. What is it about the experience of being mocked or rejected that is so unbearable that you cannot tolerate it? In my experience, there are few experiences that a person can have that will blow them up into pieces from which they cannot recover. It hurts like a MF while it is happening, but after a while you reconstitute.

trauma is something that people don't easily recover from, and which does blow up your mind (in a matter of speaking), but even there - the best treatments known today for helping people recover from trauma involve prolonged exposure - meaning that you face the fear - feeling it as intensely as you can again and again in as much detail as you can over and over and ultimately it loses some of its power to compel fear. So again, the issue of avoiding this feared experience is very relevant.

One thing I know - avoidance of things that frighten you doesn't help you in the long run (speaking generally here).

Mark

[nearlydead]

I totally identify with Lifeless post #87 stating to how deeply a level penis size affects us. To us it is much more than having a big nose or lost limbs, it is both a concious and unconcious pain.

Irma, if looking back for answers is another avenue to explore for help, then I will give it more thought. The more tools, the better for finding the right one.

Curtailed. Another form of simulator is a prostitute, its a real life situation, which you can back out of without emotion, or the comebacks that small men fear. Not my cup of tea, but it works for Recluse.

Also, I'm aware there exist men who don't care about their penis size even if they are small... This baffles me and I would love to hear about it from anyone who is in this situation. How were you treated when you were with a woman for the first time? How did it go? Did she ever comment on it? Do you feel indifferent about it?

Non carers baffle me too, but I wish I was one. The majority of women I have been with have been complimentary about my lovemaking, I have made women orgasim with my penis, fingers and tongue. While I've never heard the magic words "allo big boy" I am certain the majority of women I have slept with have had fun. They always seemed to come back for more. Its just unfortunate that a few of them made negative comments then blabbed to my peers. Which only cemented my own fears gained from my earlier years, and having a small cock of course.

I believe that I am at a point where I am accepting my body and I am at a point where I can stop blaming and hating myself for this, I just don't see how I can overcome the hopelessness and depression because women will still mock and reject me

Progress! You have held one belief in the past and moved it forward. You could in the future move forward with your hope and depression.

Say you cant, and you're 100% right.

Say you could, and you might be right.

Instead of "women will" try "women could, but might not" do you get what i'm saying?

[lifeless existence]

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[IrmaJean]

This is the very body part that makes us men.

You give this one physical attribute so much strength and power. What of being true to yourself and valuing your own goodness? I know I'm likely being redundant, Lifeless, but I'm certain that I see things in you that you can't seem to recognize in yourself. You have a kind heart and that is an immensely valuable trait.

I can understand what Mark says about facing your fears. When I finally made my first good friend (aside from my H) several years back, she was like the sister I never had. We were very close and then something terrible happened and I suddenly lost her. All of my life my greatest fear had always been loss and this had happened in the worst imaginable way (aside from death anyhow). I was devastated and began sinking into depression. I questioned whether it was even wise to bother loving anyone at all when the result could very well be this unbearable agony. After months of prolonged grief, I ended up in therapy. I always understood the temporary nature of the client-therapist relationship. My greatest fear was getting close and then losing that person, which is exactly what I would have to allow if therapy was going to work for me. In facing my fear of loss, I chose (albeit unconsciously at the time) to love him anyhow. Painful? Extremely. But sometimes in the very center of one's own agony is where the most beauty and truth is to be found...and I found it in myself...in my will to choose to hope in the face of loss. I will always carry that hope and faith with me. I know this example from my life is very different and doesn't carry the same type of feelings that it does for any of you, but it does illustrate the point of facing your fears. Risks may bring anguish, yes, but they may also bring joy. Life is chance. You have to play to win.

[Mark]

This is a whole different animal than what you're used to dealing with. This shit hits way deeper than the usual psychological issues. This is the very body part that makes us men. We're being told by women that we're not good enough to have relationships with because the very body part that makes us men is inadequate for them. This is not as simple as social anxiety. Repeated exposure doesn't make this more tolerable. This cuts to the core. We don't even feel like men. The usual methods don't apply here.

When I read this, what jumps into my mind is the world "grandiose". A sense that you are elevating this honestly very painful thing to an undeserved level of specialness, and by doing so, convincing yourselves that your problems are unique in the history of human problems and thus new rules need to apply; the old ones are inadequate to capture the specialness of this problem. I sincerely ask for your forgiveness, but I don't buy it.

Specifically, what I don't buy is that your problems are unique and special and cannot be handled by methods that are known to work for other similar problems. I do indeed buy that you do not feel like men, and I do buy that this is a more complicated problem than simple social anxiety. I do buy that since this is a permanent problem that cannot be remediated (e.g., that there isn't any way to grow your penis), that there may not be any "happy ending" to the story. However, I don't buy that just because you can't have a happy ending that this mandates that you can't also have a decent life with lots of good experiences in it, including sexual ones.

The grandiosity may be one part of what makes this problem harder to address than simple social anxiety. Because you are convinced of the specialness and uniqueness of this problem, and that ordinary methods cannot work, of course then they can't.

I keep coming back to the following formulation. You're all in a lot of emotional pain over being rejected. This pain is intense, and you want to escape it, however you find yourself in a catch-22 of identity. You can't think of yourselves as valid men unless women respond well to you, but they don't so you cannot see yourselves as valid men. Your identity is externally constructed; your internal experience is discounted. You see yourselves and judge yourselves through the lens of the "other" and not through your own eyes looking outwards. Thus, your basic self-attitude is self-loathing. But it's really you mistaking the perspective of other people for your own. Can you be a man without women acting as mirrors to tell you if you are good enough? I would suggest that this is in fact a very hard thing to do but learning how to do exactly that is part of what we do as we mature. There are always critics. If we don't learn how to tell them to fuck off at some point and stand up for ourselves, we remain hostages of others opinions and ultimately dependent characters. Your learning how to do this - which is hard for everyone to learn how to do - is indeed complicated by the fact that you have experienced more rejection than some others have - I buy that. However, I do not buy that your problem is ultimately unique and different than the same "learning to define ourselves based on internal standards rather than external ones" problem we all face in growing up.

Does this make any sense? I hope it does not come off as an attack, although I recognize it could. I'm trying to call attention to what I think are maybe unrealistically rigid ideas which are getting in your way and I cannot do that by making purely sympathetic sounds.

[Recluse]

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[lifeless existence]

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[Recluse]

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