Recruitment operation

[Born to Perish]

This is me signing on! Hey guys! I'd like to say that I have discovered that I have 5 different pesonalities. It is kind of cool, but at the same time it is disturbing and hard to control. When I tell one of them to calm down, he laughs in my face. I won't asimilate, but he is starting to scare me. What do you guys think about this?

Now: They weren't "PERSONALITIES" they were "PEOPLE" Different people. I told people this so they'd better understand. I cannot elaborate too much, but we are back to normal and there are only 2 of us again, just like when we were born.

[Luna-]

Hi Jack who's back. Are you still here?

I don't blame you for being scared of the one that laughs in your face when you tell him to calm down. Do you have a therapist you can talk to about handling the five of you...? It sounds like a problem that needs more than just one person.

Good luck - let us know?

[samspruce]

Hello Borntoperish and Sam,

Sam, I read the Isaacson biography about Eintstein and I have no recollection of his throwing a chair at anyone. Now, I will admit that my memory is far from perfect and I read the book some time ago, but, I rather doubt the accuracy of your reporting on this event.

That brings me to a larger point I want to make, Sam and Born.

I have no idea why you even mention Einstein? What are you trying to say?

To go even further, I am having great difficulty understanding what either of you is talking about.

Borntoperish, to be honest, your posts have the flavor of someone posting when they are high on some drug.

Can any of the rest of you make any sense of what is happening here?

Allan:(

Hello Allan

Sorry to take so long replying but I was "tied up" so to speak.

For the record the reference to the incident is:

Book Title: Einstein His Life and Universe

Author: Walter Isaacson

Edition published by Pocket Books 2008 - An imprint of Simon & Shuster UK Ltd

ISBN: 978-1-84739-054-7

Chapter Two: Childhood 1879-1896

Section: Munich

Page 12 Line 26

"Once, at age 5, he grabbed a chair and threw it at a tutor, who fled and never returned."

Back in a post dated 03-02-2010, 03:49 AM on page 5 of the thread entitled "Recruitment operation" I said "I have a nephew and he was thrown out of school for throwing a chair at his teacher. He was about 7 years old." I went on to explain a little about my views on the subject. The relevance being that Born seems to feel oppressed by the "adult" world. If someone offends you it is because they are transgressing your existence, your interpretation of reality. Just because the prevailing cultural conceptualisation does not encompass the paradigms to comprehend and convey the accurate reality does not mean you are wrong. What happens, unfortunately, is that the prevailing cultural paradigms conclude that you must be "wrong" if there is no other way to understand what is going on by means of the current world view. In simple terms this means that to accept that my nephew's behaviour was understandable and perfectly reasonable means that the teacher must have been "wrong". To have this conclusion seems to tear down the hierarchy of control. People then find themselves stuck because they are afraid that to break down the control mechanisms would lead to disaster. This is only fear. It is the unresolved fear built into us by the hierarchy and it's projection of it's fear into the new and small humans on the planet. Some people call this the "blame culture". If something is wrong then someone is to "blame". But this is not right and it is not fair. It also will not help humanity progress healthily into it's future. For all those Christians amongst us who do not yet understand this I would suggest they go re-read the bible and get the message. Christ was very clear on this subject and stated that the hierarchy was wrong. The Christian message is right and the religious hierarchy is overtly wrong. It is perfectly possible to understand my nephews behaviour when you take your own fear out of the equation. What he needed was a hug. What he needed was recognition of his autonomy and his unique existence. If you have ever tried this with young children you will know that to take away all threats and to allow them to explain and express their point of view actually resolves the situation. What typically happens is that the two disagreeing parties understand each others point of view and with no prompting from adults they "are" sorry for the misunderstanding and any hurt that was caused. They end up resolving the situation creatively and positively. There is no resentment and they are "friends" again. It seems a pity that I have to expend so many words to explain this. There is tons of research and "words" in books and social and psychological academic research to clarify this. So, when I encountered the reference to Einstein throwing a chair at his tutor it seemed pertinent to illustrate that even the "best" in our culture can do such things. It is intended to illustrate that "throwing a chair" does not simply make you a bad person. It is relieving the ridiculous "blame" burden.

[samspruce]

Good morning Sam,

Thanks for your response, it seems that you've given this much thought and have created intellectual "arguments" with the only missing ingredient being Thomas Kuhn's paradigm shift and Hegel's thesis, antithesis and synthesis to complete the process.

I think you and I could debate this endlessly and have a most fascinating and enlightening discussion; however, this is not the arena for this. I'm disconcerted by what you are saying to BTP (and what others may be seeing in your words) and the path you are taking with him-- I find it dangerous to suggest that having 2nd dimension friends is OK, that refusing treatment when it may be life saving is OK, that "throwing a chair..., at old fuddy duddies (or normies) is acceptable behavior ---- not b/c I'm afraid (I have faced death many times), or b/c I don't understand, or b/c I fail to see the light and am yet to be enlightened by your truth, but b/c I've been down this extremely painful and gut wrenching road personally, and b/c I see it daily in my practice.

To suggest that my wife chose her Bipolar illness and all of the pain she experienced while relapsing, as a reaction to cultural constraints and stressors, is an offensive insult to my children, her and myself... it is a dangerous and misguided ideology, and it is unequivocally irresponsible!

My sincerest hope is that you consider the potential influence of your words on BTP. I don't expect that you will receive this well or openly, nor that BTP will be open to this at this point, but my words are on the table and I say these things with the greatest of concerns and a clear understanding of where these things end up.

Should BTP hit a significant roadblock, will you be by his side, physically, to assist him as he struggles to regain his footing? Will you assist him to keep up with his bills? Will you make sure he doesn't hurt others or himself? Will you be there to take care of his family, whether emotionally or monetarily? Will you be there to make sure he is safe and not self neglectful? The differenc here is that I was there for my wife when she was ill---- where will you be (and this is not an intellectual, but a tangible stance) should BTP take a dive?

BTP, I mean no disrespect of dishonoring of you in what I say, and I apologize if my words are hurtful in any way. Should you ask, I will bow out of this discussion since it is your life we are discussing.

Deeply concerned,

david

Hello David,

I would love to answer your questions but it appears there is no possibility of a fair discussion with you because you have your finger on the proverbial trigger and simply "turn me off" if you don't like what I say or, indeed, what you think I might say next.

[samspruce]

Thank you very much David! I have been waiting for you to say that. Samspruce! Please don't take this the wrong way, but are you God? Seriously. It seems as if you are an exact replica of me and I know I have no clone so, how were you able to do this? You are amazing! You deserve the world and then some for this incredible feat if you are not the almighty spirit sending me messages through the internet. If you are not I am terribly sorry and I don't want you to be mad at me, because I thought this was a possibilty. My friend told me the devil called her one time and he was bargaining with her. It was not a figure of speech either, she gave me a complete story and I was amazed. It is horrible that the devil is able to do this, but I know God can and he has in the past. If it is you, God, then may I say it is an honor conversing with you. Please respond Samspruce, for if you are a mortal, I must know, for I am unworthy to converse with the heavenly master. Please respond Samspruce.

LOL I love the title "Holy moly!!!"

It's nice to be back. Took a little longer than 3 days this time but what the hell!

On the subject of whether I am God I cannot truthfully answer yes or no. Of course if I said "Yes" I suspect David O would simply switch me off. (I wonder what he thought he was doing when he banned me.) The thing is that "God" means different things to different people and tragically it also means different things to the same people at different times. But yes I am God in a way. I could get all Christian and describe how it was that the man called Jesus was ascribed the credentials of God but that would be pre-emptive of a lot of arguments other people might have against the claim. But to put it simply what I believe you detect in me is the humanity that shines through the patterned behaviour of most mortals. And humanity is what we are and in that respect is the truth and the truth is always beautiful. It is ironic that in the Christian religion they hail one mortal who was compassionate and loving as "God" and then proceed to try to protect their idea of truth and love with oppression and wars. What Christ was clear about was that being true to yourself was the objective. But they find that hard to believe. Funny really. Odd how to ask someone if they are God is so frightening to some people that they do things they would see in others as oppressive and cruel. I think it was this question from you that gave poor David O the abreaction to ban me. But the definition of God seems to be the ultimate truth and the ultimate truth is the way things are whether we "get it" or not. We are all God. But God is a word and as such is "defined" this way or that depending upon the use people want to make of it. What seems to be a problem for many folks is that although they "try" to be like God they cannot understand how we are all God's children and yet some people don't "act" like their idea of God. So they come up with all sorts of "justifications" for their judgemental attitudes. But as the man we call God in our Christian culture made very clear; to judge people is not a clever thing to do. It was he who said that the doctor tends the sick making the analogy with "a holy man" talking to "tax collectors and prostitutes". It was he who wrote in the sand "Let he who has not sinned cast the first stone." In my experience when you see true love in others you get a glimpse of God. It is a perfectly acceptable Christian perception that God shines through us all to different degrees. If that idea were correct (and this is just hypothetical you understand) then yes God is speaking through all of us all of the time. It is only the control freaks who are so afraid of this that they will condemn the most beautiful people. It is, of course, the story of Jesus. And I would like to add that an oak tree is an oak tree even though every oak tree is different. There is something that unifies them all. God is that thing which unifies all things. One oak tree is not "the definition" of oak trees and in that respect none of us are "the definition" of God. So in that respect I am not God. I hope this goes some way to answering your question

In case someone sees fit to ban me again may I say that you can always contact me independently. I run a web site called Toxic Drums which you can search for and you will find it. On the contact page is my email address: sam(at)toxicdrums.com.

With love (if that isn't going to frighten too many people) Sam

[samspruce]

Hi, Sam,

I don't have any objections against what BTP is writing here. I don't think he has to be "limited" by someone! When I ask about the freedom and its limits, it's because of the people around him (in his real life), in the sence David has written about. I don't think that HE would be able to hurt somebody physically (I hope so ). The exemple of a murder was not general (as if every "mad" man was able to kill or hurt!), it was an extreme case to illustrate that the limits have to be set somewhere. (So it was not about BTP at all.)

I see that BTP has only good intentions in this forum. That's great! But I think that there are too many proofs that such "mania" often turns into depression and that both these stages are very, very hard to withstand for the people who live with the manic or depressed man, that it is very reasonable to point it out here (as David did). That's all, I think.

Added later: One memory came to my mind in this context: BTP wrote, somewhere in the beginning of this thread, that he has/had "homicidal and genocidal thoughts". I don't think he's going to act in accordance with them, but... don't you understand that things like this may legitimately scare "normal" people?...

My associations: There is a "rule" that when somebody speaks about his suicidal intentions, there is a big risk that he will attempt suicide. Is it bad, according to your theory of freedom, when people give him meds to get off these intentions? And is it illogical when people do the same with somebody who has "genocidal thoughts"? ... (I'm not spkeaking about BTP (!), I mean it in general.)

I searched the post about the "genocid" etc. and found there also: <<I once thought about killing my own family, because they lie to me and tell me to be myself, but they don't want me to be myself so they get me hyped up on medication, threaten to put me in a straight jacket if I cut myself again.>>

So, if I understand you good, you say that the only problem here is the family and that it's alright that when they don't accept BTP as he is, he'd like to kill them. For me, to be "human" (I don't know how to call it; I don't want to say "normal" as this is not the right word here!) means also to be open for searching for the optimal solutions, optimally those that wouldn't hurt others. You're so delighted by the creativity of BTP; but do you think that "killing his family" is a creative idea? ... I think it's a proof of his lack of ability to solve problems. O.K. - now he changed a lot, because he found friends here and it's great. But I'm affraid that he will take this only as a proof that "he's O.K., good people can accept him, but not his family, so the family is bad" - and so the problem from the beginning is still here. I think he'd need hepl with understanding the others, not only his friends from this forum, but also his family etc. What you give him is only a reassurance that there are people that accept and like him. This IS important, I know he needs and deserves it! But I think that it would be better for him to understand also "the others" - when understood, they will no more seem to be "limiting" and "persecuting". Being "human" includes also "understanding of other's feelings and attitudes", or at least trying to. It seems to me BTP only wants to understand himself and his friends here.

Sorry, I think this "conversation" is probably quite irrelevant and not appropriate for this forum. But... I hope people who think so don't read it

Hello LaLa3

One thing I really appreciate is when people can say what they think and others can reply, question and express their views. Thank you for your thoughtful post.

I once said to a psychologist in a session that my girlfriend said "I eat little boys for breakfast." It was almost a passing comment but he looked very intensely at me and asked me what she meant. Well of course it was only an expression. But in his role he comes across extreme cases of human behaviour and had to be sure that a clue was not slipping past him. He had to check that this was metaphorical and not a description of some morbid reality. So I think I know what you mean.

I think most people have had the desire to kill someone at some point or another. I think most people are very clear with themselves when they are expressing a feeling and when they are expressing an intention. I would go so far as to suggest that if someone says "They make me so mad I want to kill them" that they are only expressing feelings. It is because they wouldn't kill them that they say it. I would suggest that when someone actually has decided they don't generally advertise the fact. That is my experience to date and incidentally I have known more than one murderer. And there is another significant point. So what? By limiting people's ability to express their feelings does nothing to help them understand them. After all we are all just human and get one go at this life. I believe that we are 100% real. That means that if people cannot express their feelings one way they will do something about it. If someone says to me that they want to kill someone it is not my responsibility. I do not have to be on the alert for anyone I think might kill someone and to "kill" them (metaphorically with drugs or really) if I think they will. That is largely what the problem is about. We have to understand as humans that we are responsible for our own lives. That means all of us. Not that some of us have to take responsibility for other people.

There is a difference in law between saying you want to rob a bank and robbing a bank. Going back to the dark ages you could be condemned for expressing a view. We are learning and making progress on this front. We do not lock people up because of what we conclude they might do. We have to live with the reality that we don't lock someone up unless they have actually "done" something against the law. Just because you know someone could murder does not give you the right to limit their freedom. This is what happens in despotic regimes and dictatorships. And after all we all have the potential for good and bad things.

You said "...don't you understand that things like this may legitimately scare "normal" people?..." Of course I do. Do you think I don't get scared? But what I have realised is that we all have profound and compassionate feelings. If we hush people up if they utter anything that disturbs us we are creating an oppressive culture which will always break down. As for the idea of limits having to be set I would question the implications of that. But the limits are set not only in law but in reality too. LaLa3, I am a peace loving person and I simply do not applaud violence in any form in reality. I would rather lay down and die than to be the person to pick up a weapon and use it in the name of peace. All the worry about supporting Born is about what he "might" do whilst everybody is in agreement that he is a nice guy. I refuse to be drawn into the collusion of worrying. I do enough of that on my own account .

I don't feel as if I have answered your questions completely but I hope this goes some way to explaining my position. The bottom line is that we should avoid acting against others because of our own fear. Born is a liberated soul and finding it very hard to cope in an otherwise un-liberated environment.

With love

Sam

[samspruce]

Since Samspruce was able to, he is an exceptional normie. I'm sure he would not be willing to blow himself up to prove a point, this is why he is a normie. Unless he is willing to do so, then he is a normie. You have to be willing to sacrifice your life for your beliefs and you must have no fear if you are not to be considered a normie, but normies are good and technically it is right to be a normie.

Hmm - Not sure I like this definition of me

Incidentally there is a difference (I think) between being willing to blow myself up to prove a point and being willing to sacrifice my life for my belief. I can't think of a situation where I would choose to take positive action to destroy myself to prove a point but I have been in the situation where I would quite willingly die rather than counter something I truly believed in. So I would die for someone I love and I know that. But I certainly wouldn't blow myself up to prove anything to anyone.

As for being without fear - I fail on that account. I live with fear and the only thing I can say is that I recognise the fallacy that it is. I resist responding to fear but I am not without it.

With fear and trepidation

Sam

[SweetSue]

"knock knock"

Just wanted to say welcome back Sam

missed ya hun.

Take care

[Born to Perish]

Hey guys! Wait a sec and I'll post more after I read okay! Sorry for my absence!

[Born to Perish]

Selmat! Hey Samspruce! I've got your email address now. I hope it's okay if I implement it. You are soooo sweet and it's nice to have you back! Being a normie isn't bad, but I don't want to insult anyone. I used to be a normie too, but life forced me into becoming a free spirit, because... it's kind of hard to explain and sounds wierd, but if I had not set myself free, then I would have killed myself so.... I decided to..... LIVE!!!! Yes indeed-ie! YAY! I'm ALIVE! YAY! AVATAR STATE YIP YIP! YAY! People are kind of mean to me at school now, but I don't care, because I'm free! Yes sir re! I'm FREE-EE-EEE! I know that gets tiresome, so I'll try to tone it down. It is quite impossible for most to become free spirits, in fact it is so hard, some say you must be born a certain way to be one, but it is POSSIBLE for you to make this jump, just very difficult. You can't be afraid of a gunholder whom is trying to harm you, at least not me, because if I am, I'll be fearful for the rest of my life, people are always out to get me and they are currently proving this. I have been having a little problem at school. Will you not hear? NEXT---

Now: No. A free spirit is someone who will do as they please often, without worrying about what people think. I don't expect people not to be fearful of a threat. I was still hurt clearly and my judgement was clouded a little. Most of it is right, so we are getting better here.

[Born to Perish]

People whom I have never met before; parents as we know them, have been calling up to my school and complaining about my pressence. Isn't that sad? The parents of the children that do not like me are trying to get me removed from the classes that I am in. I am in trouble, but the thing is... I really don't care, because if I let this bother me, I WILL NEVER BE HAPPY. I love to laugh for nothing, sing, dance, play, I love to be active and spontaneous, but no one likes me or my other personalities at all, so they resort to heinous methods to remove me. They use trickery and deceit to mislead me and because I am a trusting and very gullible person, I often believe or go through with it. The guys at the school know too much for me to assimilate now, they will rip me apart like the savage beasts that they are if I do this, so I won't. I will stand tall during this time of oppression. Thanks for responding Samspruce! WHILE RIDING THROUGH THE STORM, JESUS HOLDS ME IN HIS ARMS. I HAVE NO FEAR OF THE RAGING SEA WHILE JESUS IS THERE WITH ME, HE CAN SPEAK TO THE WINDS AND THE WAVES, AND MAKE THEM BEHAVE.

[samspruce]

Hello Born

You are as wonderful as ever. It's really nice to be back too

As for those people (I would have used another word but I'm trying to be polite) who are conniving and plotting behind the scenes to have you removed from school well... what is there to say really? There seem always to be people like that about. They, of course, are suffocating in their own fear. It's difficult in life to get the balance right. On the one hand to be pretentiously pleasant and sycophantic is a travesty against the true spirit of humanity but on the other hand if one is too vitriolic and condemning there is the danger of being misunderstood and even, perhaps, of becoming like "them". I have a deep belief in freedom of expression and it is one reason I have been involved in the arts. Sometimes when you want to make a strong point you can't do it in the school assembly hall (not and get away with it anyway) but presented as "art" it gets a license to be considered and has a place for dissent and disagreement. I love your use of the term "normies" because I get it entirely. I don't have a problem with being a normie because I learnt years ago that I could be myself whether other people liked it or not. And actually most normies are not so normal when you get to know them. But the people who are being judgemental and negative about you behind your back are playing out their frustration and sense of injustice that they were "made" to conform. Because they conformed and found it a way to comply with the oppressive and controlling behaviour of the people they needed when they were young they continue to "behave" "normally" in the expectation that it will keep them safe. Anyone who they perceive as breaking those rules disturbs them. The reason being that as the perception enters their neurological system it provokes exactly the same patterns that it would provoke if they were doing it. The fear begins to rise inside of them. If it were them who were going to do the things they are seeing you doing they would never even realise they were going to because the repression is there to moderate their behaviour for survival. So they have neurological pathways in place to prevent the flow of the stuff that would produce the behaviour. But you are doing it so the act is happening and their system starts to try to fight it harder. The result is that they externalise the original oppression from which their repression is built.

I'll give you an example. Watching a monkey picking it's nose is not usually as disturbing to someone as watching a child do it in the street. If you disagree with this we will have to try something else but what I am trying to convey is that although some people genuinely think they think that picking your nose is disgusting as if that is an objective reality. But here's how it works. A child picks their nose and a parent slaps them. (Usually it is more of a disgusted look and a comment but it is still a threat to the child's security because they are dependent on adults when young and a slap is easier and shorter to use in this demonstration). Ouch! goes the child. Next time they go to pick their nose there is the memory of a pain in the head associated with it. After a few slaps the child is beginning to get the idea that this is a constant correlation. (continued...)

[samspruce]

(... continued) So when they start to have the idea of picking their nose they begin to not do because it will instigate pain. They soon get to the point that they just don't want to pick their nose. But the idea and the repression are just nicely balanced in a harmonious equilibrium and all is well with the world until... One day they see a child picking it's nose. The neurological patterns match up with the past experience (it's called learning) and as the act is perceived the corresponding threat of pain begins to rise to try to prevent the action. But it has no effect because the action is out there and the brain is trying to stop it happening inside their head. As the act continues the level of "need" to prevent it rises until the person slaps the child to stop them. They believe they are right because they can't tell the difference between objective reality and their own experience of the world. Ultimately I guess none of us can but there are varying degrees.

Back to your issue with the parents plotting against you. They have altered their behaviour by complying with external oppression and they really have little or no control over it acting out through them now. They really think you are disruptive to their children. What they cannot understand is that we are all here and we make a collection of different abilities and talents and every one of them is part of the whole. There is the blind kid who can hear the slightest noise but can't see the "keep out" notice, there is the autistic savant who can do instantaneous maths but can't remember to shut the door after herself and there is you who have talents way out in the stratosphere but need to keep expressing yourself. They simply don't get it because they "conformed" against their nature when they were small. Now they resent anyone who "gets away with it" but they wrap it up in sophisticated intellectual justification.

There are two things you might be interested to look at One is a short film called "Shades of Gray" about Zyra who is a severe paranoid schizophrenic and lives with his talents and makes a lot of money by being himself and the other is a talk by Sir Ken Robinson, an educational guru, about the misunderstanding we have about education.

What I am trying to say is that those people who are unfairly plotting against you are wrong. There is not a lot you can do about it. They are kinda stuck. And there is a way to deal with different people's talents and all it takes is a non-judgemental compassionate and loving regard for people. Then a solution is found to any difficulties that are being experienced. It is a fantastic ability that humans have. But unfortunately you are not in that position at the moment. But it seems you are doing the right thing and refusing to be shifted or oppressed by them. When you get real support from people it is permanent. Why? Because you will never forget that some people really do understand. I am lucky that I have met a few people like that and they sustain me still. Even if your situation turns more difficult you can be sure that your suspicion that they are wrong is quite right and there are other people who know it too. And maybe one day we will understand that it is they who are the victims. It is they who have lost their freedom and it is they who should be pitied.

Keep well

Sam

[David O]

Good morning BTP,

I've been following the conversation with great interest (and do agree much with what Sam is saying).

BTP, the fact that your peers “conspire” against you speaks volumes regarding bullying behavior and the ugliness beneath the surface of most schools I work with—it is disheartening on many levels. I’m so sorry this has been your pain (and it has for this is hard to avoid completely) for so long, especially b/c it forces you to adapt in ways that create even more problems for you in connecting with others. On the other hand, one can easily see that your words and the things you do may serve the role of casting you as a provacutuer, while this does not justify in any way their harsh and unkind treatment of you, it does shine a light on your part of the equation-- that of providing the fodder or raw material for their insensitivity. And when others respond to this fodder, you react, as most anyone would. The point being that much of this is under your control, it is partially (not entirely) by your hand that others come to view you in such a way, thereby creating a scapegoat (look into the history of the Jewish tradition of scapegoat, it's fascinating).

The cruel reality BTP, is that this continues into young adulthood, maturity, work, play, our neighborhoods and communities, college life, church, family life--- soon it envelopes us, no matter which culture or society we live in. For those who refuse to or can’t adjust in serious ways, they find themselves alone (and being alone isn’t always bad), have a difficult time getting and keeping good jobs, friendless sometimes (but it seems you are already here), and in a world w/o others. This you’ve not experienced fully, b/c you are still in a protective cocoon of being in school, having a home taken care of by others, having food on the table as you need it and provided by someone else, having your medical needs provided as ensured by others, and basically having caretakers: this ends quickly when you enter the adult world.

What most of us do is seem to lead 2 lives, one private and one public. In your private life you are as you are here BTP: in public, survival often means some compromises, social awareness and social responsibility, and social skills that don’t invite criticism and being ostracized, but instead invite friendships and camaraderie, and the capacity to be with others in a "communal way."

Today, who you are is somewhat protected by the hedge of youth and others taking care of your basic needs: in adulthood, there is no protective hedge (unless you live at home and/or have all of your basic needs met by them), whether right or wrong, whether just or unjust, or whether humane or inhumane-- this is a simple and crude reality. This is the self-conversation you will face at some point, and being free and a free spirit, while laudable, will require adjustment if you want to live reasonably well, have a home where you want it, live in ways that you want to, and have security. Does this require you to make adjustments-- absolutely: does it require that you bridle some of your free spirit, yes. It does not, however, require that you sell your entire soul to the devil, tho, b/c the devil lives at both ends---- the one of over-compromise and the one of absolutely no compromising. But it's a life decision that you'll have to face and answer soon, as time may be running out (unless of course you're independently wealthy).

In the end, we all at times prostitute ourselves for survival, hate it as we may-- especially so when we have a family or need to live in society—this isn’t bad, it’s a very natural, inherent part of our maturing process. For me, it was the refusal to learn English, the refusal to leave the cocoon of my people and their ways, my refusal to be like others and my desire to be free and live as I wanted. This, in adulthood, was short lived as soon I was hungry, penniless and homeless. Dumpster diving was where I ended up, living in abandoned homes in places like El Paso, TX, Silver City, and the Gila Wilderness of NM. Soon the freezing cold, poor health, an emaciated frame, the desire to be free and not conform to the "stupid gringos," all gave way to some serious adjustments on my part. I now speak English!!!

Thoughtfully,

David

[Born to Perish]

Truer words have never been spoken Samspruce, they are afraid and this I have known for a while and this is why I feel quite bad for them at times, because they are soooo primitive, you know. It's like, they don't understand how I could be my own person. It's kind of painful after a while to watch them struggle day by day, because you know, I do care for all of them. I have tried to open their minds, not so that they will be like me, but so that they will be happy. However, they are too afraid to make the jump and I feel their pain. It hurts badly, I have been there. You feel like their is no way out, but you've got to take life by the horns and make it understand that you are your own person. STORMS OF LIFE WILL BLOW, THEY'RE SURE TO COME AND GO... This is true and you can't moan and groan about it though, because if you do, they've won. Only YOU truly know what is best for you. Don't listen to others. Half of the time you choose to be defiant anyway, so why not always? I hate it when people half do things like this, it's ridiculous. I am TRULY saved. Don't listen to the preacher when he tells you he is saved, because he is probably not. Give all of your faith to God truly and you will overcome. If you do not believe then I am very sorry. 9 times out of 10 atheists probably will not be able to do this, but IT IS POSSIBLE. Have enough strength to thrive alone then if not under the guidance of MY heavenly master. Just live without fear and limitation. LIFE IS AN ILLUSION, I AM BORN TO PERISH, AND I HAVE NO FEAR OF THE RAGING SEA WHILE JESUS IS THERE WITH ME.

[Born to Perish]

Something has occured. The demon took over me last night and I have decided that to get rid of him, I have to take my medication. So I'm taking it now. BUT.... That doesn't mean that I won't still write silly stuff like: PEPPA! PEPPA! Because that's who I am. I am silly and fun loving. Take this quality away from me and WHO AM I? I would be a slave and a robot. But, I am not, so I made the decision to take my medicine, but still be free. It is possible. I may be medicated and powerless, but I will still find a way to laugh, sing, dance and play. If I truly have faith in God, then I will be able to trust them. I DO NOT NEED A DEMON TO PROTECT ME. I HAVE HIM. I am still a free spirit, though I am powerless. I gave up my power to become apart of this world and to prevent it from harming my friends, my family, my relationship with God and me. I am vulnerable, but not afraid. Savages come and get me, I am ripe for the picking yet courageous. Jesus will see me through no matter what. My INNOCENT spirit lives on. Demons have no hope in the afterlife, but I am no longer controlled by the likes of one. It will be almost unbearable, but the captain of my soul will lead me to a better place. I'd like to hear back from you guys okay, I LOVE YOU GUYS AND YOU ARE A GREAT FAMILY. LONG LIVE PEACE AND HARMONY. I HAVE NO FEAR OF RAGING SEA, KNOWING JESUS IS THERE WITH ME.

[samspruce]

Hello Born

It is impossible for me to know what it is like for you. But if you feel up to it I would love to know what this demon is. How it makes you feel and why you have decided you are strong enough to keep your freedom and take the "medication". From where I am I believe you. I think you are strong enough. I think you are stronger than most. But then you have more to carry too. I suspect that with your attitude the drugs are hopefully going to help you deal with one thing at a time. Somehow I don't imagine you becoming dependent on them. Why? Because I have been close to dependent on drugs and I know that so long as you keep your integrity you are always going in the right direction. The thing about drugs is they hold off some of the stuff that might destroy you in other ways. If it is your decision then I have no doubt it is the right one. Another thing that we fear is the loss of identity. You won't lose that. You are extremely valuable with or without medication and drugs won't change the real you. So here is my hope - that you get a reprieve from the urgency of your mission and that you have more time to worry less about the meaning of things. I think you are right about the faith in God (and I am an atheist by the way but they are only words) and I think if you trust that things are as they are and all is well in the universe you liberate yourself from fear and obligations and get some room to "be" whoever you are.

I'll tell you a little about me. In a very dreadful divorce my ex-wife tried to kick me out and prevent me living as a father with my daughter. It was very complex and I wish I could write a book about it but it was manipulative and cruel. The point of my telling you this is that throughout about 3 years of hell nearly everyone misunderstood me. That confused me because I am naive and I didn't realise that they were judging me by their values. My objective was to afford our daughter the right to be with the parent of her choice but I was perceived as wanting her to live with me for "my" sake. At one stage I realised that I was bearing witness to the truth and not fighting my "side" of a battle. The option (simplified) was that either I never see my daughter again or I concede to the opposition and she live with her mother and I get to see her every fortnight. If it were "for me" the threat would be too great and I would likely concede. It was the advise I got from everyone. But what I realised was that our daughter had the right to live with the parent of choice and that it would be better that I was dead than that I made some "deal" and left her with her mother. (She was frightened of her mother and her mother was a divisive and ruthless control freak.) The way I saw it was that for me to make a "deal" would undermine the trust and belief that my daughter had in me. She would be left with her mother and would always wonder if she could trust any one. She would be better off with me forcibly removed knowing that I never lost faith and that she was right in her perception and belief. This took an immense amount of courage for me (and my wonderful daughter) because it is like risking everything for the truth of love. I cannot do this complex story justice in such a small post but the end result was that finally a judge ordered her mother to cease the endless battle against us.

The reason I tell you this is that no matter what happens in the material world the truth is still the truth whether we live or die. We are simply living in the truth for a while. Your integrity is so closely bound to the truth that there is no amount of "medication" could ever detach you. That is why I know that you may feel in a "darkened" place for a while but you will never let go of your truth. Hence "Have faith in God and all will be well." It might not be easy but hey! Whoever wanted an "easy" life?

Keep the faith

With love

Sam

[Born to Perish]

You may not like this, but... I have decided that the medication that I am taking isn't right for me, so I'm going to seek medicine that might help solve problems with depression and paranoia. Do you guys know of any medication that will help with depression or paranoia? I need this, because today, I felt depressed and scared of everyone in my school. I have faith in God, but it is in my best interest to avoid any stress at all, because frankly, I do not deal with it well at all. In fact one might say that in a time of adversity, I am quite foolish and do stupid and crazy things, like going to school and then leaving school after only 3 minutes have passed or attempting suicide or cutting or burning myself or leaving home. The Lord has never let me down nor forsaken me and I just realized, for me to truly have faith in God, and this is complicated I might add, I have to believe that he will give me the power to fight this demon, he, not medication. However, I do need medicine for depression and paranoia, because it gets out of hand. Samspruce you are still the sweetest you know. HA HA YOU'RE THE BOMB! LOL!!! Thank you Samspruce. HEY WAAATCH OUT SAMMY!!!!! LOL. NUTRITION, NU- NU- NUTRITION! Ha Ha. Okay, I'll stop for now, but you've gotta admit that was soooo cool. She's not going to see this is she? LOL. Sorry... So Samspruce and other members, I've got to pose the main queston again: Know of any medications for paranoia or depression? TEDDY YOU DA GREATEST! Please respond!

[malign]

Hi, Born. :-)

Medication questions should really be asked to your doctor. We couldn't really recommend something without knowing your exact condition, and without being doctors ourselves. And then, you couldn't get the medication without a prescription, anyway.

What makes you think your current medication isn't the right one? These things take a lot longer than a couple of days to reach effective levels in your body. Maybe they would help with the paranoia and depression, if you gave them a couple of weeks' chance?

[Born to Perish]

Oh you slay me tiger, you are the fly in my soup you are the eye lash in my eye, you are so busy blowing out bad vibes in every DIRECTION that we are all choking on your secondhand smoke!!! LOL! Sorry. I heard that on "An Extremely Goofy Movie" it was awesome. Well.... hum.... I heard the same thing from my counselor at school. Did I throw you off with what I said earlier? It feels a little drafty in here... are you hoping I'll catch a cold? This actually has some relevance to our topic: I feel like carrying on with this medicine will make me incredibly sick, besides I already talked to my mom about it and we have decided to try another kind of medication. TRUST ME, I was still just as stressed, suicidal, depressed and paranoid the last time the medicine "kicked in", or do you think that 3 years isn't long enough for it to get going? :confused: I hope you didn't think that any of this was rude or anything. A lot of people used to target and isolate me and made me think I was the bad one and they kind of still are doing that, but you know what, I'm ready for life now. Special class here I come, if that is what I must do to maintain happiness. I just hope no one hurts me. Oh wait.... I AM READY. As I said: I HAVE NO FEAR OF THE RAGING SEA WHILE JESUS IS THERE WITH ME. Respond back pretty please guys! Hmmm.... BYE! NICE TA SEE YA GO MUUWA HA HA! (kidding) HAPPY TRAILS! See ya next time baseball fans!

[malign]

I'm concerned about you, Born, that's all. In no way do I think you're a "bad guy".

I don't know your medical history. If the meds you have don't work for you, of course you would know that better than I would.

On the other hand, if taking nothing leaves you seeing demons, I'd be looking for something else to try. What do you think?

[Born to Perish]

You are right Malign. Hey guess what? You will never believe where I was for the past 6 days. I was placed in a mental hospital and I didn't like it at first, but it was okay. Questions and comments anyone?

[samspruce]

Hello Born

Placed in the mental hospital. That is a very apt name for the place

You ask for thoughts on the matter. Well I think we are all individuals and we have our own experiences to deal with. I think that although one might not wish to be in a mental hospital and there are serious down sides the probability is that there are more people inside the hospital willing and able to give "patients" more time and effort in understanding them. Given my ideas on mental illness and much of it being the result of a toxic environment I suspect there are advantages to be had by spending time in a hospital. A large part of the "toxicity" in our culture is people having their own agenda at other people's expense. Although the hospital staff do have their own agenda at least it is concerned with paying attention to you. I would imagine it is a bit like a religious institution. So long as you let them get some satisfaction from "helping" you they will probably be very helpful.

I would be interested to hear what it was like for you and what you thought about the staff. Since you say it was okay (in the end) I hope your experience was helpful.

Keep well and I think of you almost daily.

Sam.

[malign]

I "placed" myself in a mental hospital, at one point, because it seemed to me to be the best solution I had at the time. When it's that or die, for instance, there's not much to lose.

My stay wasn't joyous, but it did the job; I didn't want to die when I got out. Born, I don't know any of the story of how you got "placed" or how it went. However, I would be interested to hear how you see it, and whether, and in what ways, you might feel like you benefitted (or didn't).

[Born to Perish]

I know it's been a while, but I have been terribly preoccupied with work and I haven't been able to say anything, but here I am so! Thanks for the comments guys, I sure hope to here from you again. I shall return a little bit later, but right now it's time for the HUNT! Kidding: I've gotta go eat okay, but I'll be BAAAAACK!!!!:cool: