Can someone help explain...

[DahliMOMMA]

..how, physically (& chemically) rapid cycling in bi polar works???

I feel like I have a pretty decent general understanding of bipolar (for a layperson) but I am just curious what the 'mechanics' are for ultra (ultra) rapid cycling (maybe mixed states would have similar explanation) are. Is this even understood? I've heard that until recently there wasn't standard recognition of this in the professional community.

Is it overproduction of certain chemicals, problem with uptake at receptors...I guess I don't understand how it is possible to be stuck on a repeating fixed cycle of mood fluxes every 48 hours, like clockwork, for several weeks. (w/ a closely relating fluxes of physical energy, and mental focus.)

Also, in my case I recently had worse hypo-manic and depressive symptoms parallel to the rise in dose of Lamicatal (during the starting titration) which have lessened and now almost gone away with dosing back down. But I am still feeling that similar flux with physical tiredness/energy and mental focus or lack thereof still going on.

In theory, if my moods are stabilized enough to deal with with coping behaviors~~ Are there meds that address the swings in energy and focus that remain...?? Anyway...(I am feeling a little too foggy at the moment, I had to really focus to get this out:o) but I look forward to hearing what insights and/or reading you might recommend.

Also, I could use an in-depth tool for charting symptoms, especially for when moods seem fairly stable but other sides still fluxing.

Thanks.

[katleen]

Hi Dalimama

Thank you for your kind words the other day.

Here are articles when i searched using Google with just 'ultra ultra rapid cycle bipolar'

Also, there's a thing called 'The Bipolar Toolkit' you can download for free.

DBT offers emotion regulation skills as one of its sections. It's free online through Yahoo Groups.com. Requires a bit of homework, but is good stuff.

Hope your evening is good

love

katleen

[Luna-]

Hi DahliMOMMA, we haven't met yet.

You ask an interesting question! I'm off to research and will come back with bounty! I'm in a mixed state and have been for a while, but it has calmed down recently. I still don't like the tears and hopelessness in the evenings but at least mornings are good. Having both together is MOST confusing!

[DahliMOMMA]

Hello, all! I have made a little headway in the arena of understanding the neurophysiologic functions with mood switching & episodes. I'd like to share a link to a site I found interesting: http://www.brainexplorer.org/bipolar_disorder/Bipolar_Disorder_Aetiology.shtml

I've found that the trouble with internet searching tends to be rifling through so much on the opposite ends of the spectrum...a ton that is so diffuse and generalized as to offer only the bare essentials of a basic concept or the highly technical, highly directed reports (as in an case study research abstract)...along with a lot of self-help query & general response information.

I found the above link to be refreshingly specific while still being easy to follow (all though it wasn't strictly about mixed states or UURC...what began my search). Thought this might interest some others here.

I think part of why find the neurophysiological side of BP extremely interesting because of how I have struggled with other neurological issues in recent years (I do wonder if possibly inter-related somehow???). Migraines, unexplained nerve pain (fibromyalgia), & intermittent issues affecting speech, memory, vision. To be quite honest I find that these newer symptoms (last 2-3 years) along with the drastic fluxes in physical 'energy' and focus are more troublesome and debilitating to me than the fluxes in mood.

I look forward to hearing what further insights and resources you might recommend.

[DahliMOMMA]

Hi DahliMOMMA, we haven't met yet.

You ask an interesting question! I'm off to research and will come back with bounty! I'm in a mixed state and have been for a while, but it has calmed down recently. I still don't like the tears and hopelessness in the evenings but at least mornings are good. Having both together is MOST confusing!

Hi, KATLEEN...

Hi, LUNA...looking forward to getting to know you on the boards (and see what your research reveals as well...)

I think there is something comforting as well about communication with others who have a similar perspective of learning about this "from the inside" so to speak. I can relate to trying to work around the ups and downs of mood, etc... that seems to be the way I am getting through ~ staying present in the moment, knowing the negative won't last too long and making the most of the positive.

[Luna-]

Nice site, DahliMOMMA - thanks. (I might just be shortening youri name to DM, would that be OK with you?)

I tried a search engine I've found useful for searching scientific journals: www.scirus.com. The search terms I used were 'ultradian rapid cycling bipolar mechanism' which yielded 183 hits. Many of them are just definitions/occurrence and what makes it happen but a few do seem to try to explain how ultra ultra happens (finding levels of some neurochemicals vary using frequent blood sampling with every mood shift, but that got too complicated for my very basic neurochemistry knowledge!) I also found quite a few places that said it was usually a temporary phenomenon. (Just how long "temporary" is, is however a moot point!)

My cycles have speeded up over the years. My BP was only diagnosed at 47 (I'm 48) after 27 years of MDD, recurrent. (with some GREAT 'remissions' in between! ) So years and years of unopposed ADs took their toll. Plus I have hypothyroidism per kind favour of lithium. I don't have much of a break between them any more either, the longest about a month last year. I'm on the cusp of the definition of rapid cycling - 3 cycles per year, but I suspect this year may be the one I hit it, I'm in the second (a mixed) at the moment. (Well, I might be at the end of it, but I've actually forgotten what normal even is, so I wonder if my current mood swings are those normal people have and no longer extreme enough to qualify for mixed (?)) At my last pdoc appt 3 weeks ago, he said mixed.

Concerning the in-depth charting tool, I have not found one for mixed (or ultra ultra) but during my previous mixed cycle I split the day into morning, afternoon, evening on my normal chart and charted 3 times. These days I just 'check all that apply' on my +5 to -5 scale. I can give you the headings for my chart if you're interested, I synthesised it from various ones I found on the Web. What are your headings?

And one more question: would you mind if we moved this thread to the Bipolar section? We get a lot of unregistered guests on the site and they may look for info there, rather than under Treatments. I think this is a useful informational thread for Bipolar (it's the archivist in me I think!)

[DahliMOMMA]

LUNA,

Absolutely... I think we should see if an admin would mind moving the thread.

Not sure why exactly I started it here, I think I was hoping to here directly from one of 'the professionals' on the matter and thought they'd catch over here. Who knows?:confused:

OH, and Go ahead an abbreviate to your hearts content..DH, dahli, momma...As long as I know yer talking to me. My initial reaction was "I don't care what ya call me, just don't call me late for dinner!":eek: I am so UP & 'slaphappy' right now I am somehow channeling my inner "cowpoke". YIKES!

[malign]

Momma,

Luna- herself has the "powers" it takes to move the thread; I think she was just asking your permission. She's in a different timezone, though, so it might take until tomorrow for her to come back. I'd rather let her move it, for the practice {and because that way, if it gets messed up, it won't have been me.} ;-)

[DahliMOMMA]

Thanks for clarifying, Malign.

(interesting name BTW)

I wasn't sure how this board was structured...Other ones I have been on just admins had those privileges. But yes, to the 'powers that be' I don't mind if ya move my 'errant post' when you get around to it!:cool:

[Luna-]

I'd rather let her move it, for the practice {and because that way, if it gets messed up, it won't have been me.} ;-)

*Luna gives malign a playful punch on the shoulder*

Gee, thanks for the vote of confidence buddy! But thanks for the practice.

OK, it's moved, let's get back to the topic.

[malign]

*rubs painfully bruised shoulder*

This is what we get for not having name tags ...

The site has a number of moderators, who are listed at the bottom of each main forum page, but we chose to keep our 'Member' tags instead of switching to 'Moderator' tags, because we all focus more on our member duties than on moderating. I know it can be difficult for newcomers to identify the "staff". :-)

And yes, I'll let you get back to your discussion.

[Lindamomof7]

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[Luna-]

Oh Linda... are you a huggy person or would you rather not have a hug?

Yes, you're also ultra ultra/ultra-radian/ultradian rapid cycling like DahliMomma. Anti-depressants can induce rapid cycling. (I think that's what happening with me, but without them I get severely depressed - a real catch-22.)

We apparently lose grey matter, so yes, our brains shrink. Isn't that cheery? On the other hand, we have a lot of spare capacity in our brains, neurons that are unused (neuro-plasticity) so I would imagine the loss can probably be compensated for. The "use it or lose it" adage that goes with all ageing applies.

Bipolar is not for the faint-hearted, is it?

[Lindamomof7]

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[Luna-]

I would take whatever helps!

Bipolar is neurotransmitters, but a hell of a lot of things influence neurotransmitters and I'd imagine hormones would have a strong effect.

I read somewhere that rapid cycling can resolve... can't remember where.

[Lindamomof7]

ECT can help jolt the transmitters out of rapid cycling.

[DahliMOMMA]

Hello, Ladies...

Things have settled down quite a bit, Finally! I have some catch up to try to do around the house but thought I would pop in.

The mental function issues have really been highlighted by my UURC...with the 48 hour cycles one I'd have a totally different mental functioning on opposite ends of the spectrum. Depending on how extreme there are times I refuse to drive because the vision, focus, etc make me feel a danger to myself or others behind the wheel. Thankfully, not recently.

My memory is terrible, all though i have clear, definite ups and down with the cycles. I constantly call my children the wrong names...It's a standing joke in my house. (all though I find it quite terrifying especially when i lose common words, etc...my paternal grandmother had Alzheimer's (granted in 80-90's) and to be having these issues at 35 I fear how this could worsen over time if I don't get a handle on it.

I have issues with a certain range of my vision (but only at one place of BP cycle, it seems) ...where I hit my head inadvertently because by depth perception is affected. I was recommend to have light therapy for fixing this...

At least I have the reassurance of not feeling like it's hopeless because I have times where all is okay with speech and memory so that makes is bother me a little less.

As i learn more it makes me wonder if issues with pain, fibromyalgia, migraines, vision & memory issues THAT i HAVING BEEN SEARCHING FOR ANSWERS ABOUT LAST 2 YEARS not all intertwined with BP.!

[Lindamomof7]

Hi Momma, have you ever had a full neurological workup with a Neurologist? If not I would definately get one you seem to have a lot of neurological deficits going on...There may be an underlying condition going on that you might not be aware of. I know, I just had to go through one with an abnormal MRI but not significant enough for another reason for some of my issues. Just a thought here for you...

[DahliMOMMA]

Linda,

I had an MRI and consult with neurologist about vision problems and migraines about a year and a half ago...Have been thinking about going back to have them weigh in on new things going on (with BP diagnosis). At the time things were structurally normal. I think seeing him again would be a really good idea, now that you mention it.

...I have been thoroughly 'worked up' my my rhuematologist for underlying conditions with my nerve pain and fibromyalgia diagnosis.

[Lindamomof7]

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[DahliMOMMA]

Linda,

As far as neuropsychological tests, can you elaborate as what some of these might be?? Or which you had. And these would be, I assume through a neurologist (or pdoc) or does it need to be neuropsychologist ?? I have been checked for MS, lupus, thyroid so many times...my symptoms mimic other things but tests run 'normal'. The only thing I have 'tested' positive for is fibromyalgia, ,mainly by having pain at all (but 1 or 2) tender points and testing negative for all the other culprits.

I have to admit, I am wondering about a link with whatever is going on w/ me neurologically ...BP and the chronic nerve pain....lately seems to be going up and down with cycling too :eek:

[Lindamomof7]

yes I went to a psychological testing place over 4 yrs ago from a Neurologist recomendation when all this started which then sent me to a Psychiatrist I think because I was exhibiting Bipolar cycling weekly. So then the meds just killed me and I ended up in the psych hospital.

I wasn't too happy with the results because I know I was at my worst taking these tests and so the outcome was definately not representative of me but only then at the time of major deficits like processing, memory. So I hated taking the tests and seeing the low results. It is up to you but if you ahve seen a Neurologist and they have given you a clean bill health physically besides the fibromyalgia then go with that... I have heard that fibro and depression/bipolar are connected somehow but I can't remember where I read that...

[DahliMOMMA]

I saw my rhuematologist today and let him know what new and re-occurring symptoms I am having. He sent me for a brain MRI and doing about a dozen different blood tests (been about 9 months since I had a good set of blood draws). He's also going to have me consult with neurologist again (it's been a good while, last time for 'migraines'). Doc said these could be the fibromyalgia/BP also.

At least I feel better getting stuff looked into. Esp. with my vision and memory intermittently issues getting worse.

[Lindamomof7]

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