Sensitivity request.

[danni]

something,

I would tend to agree with you there. I was apologizing for something I didn't even know I did. I'll go back and read my past posts and see if I can find it but off the top of my head, I'm not sure. Hopefully I can figure it out so I can try not to do it again. But I agree, it would be much more helpful it I would know where to look rather than speak in generalities.

I still think a lot of this comes down to perception. You and I can read the exact same thing and you may think it's helpful and I may find it hurtful. We who come here for support all come with such a vast difference of needs and tolerances.

[Guest GingerSnap]

Oh, Sue, you didn't do anything and I think Allan, in trying to cover all the territory here at the website, just made a slip - I understand this kind of thing - like it's an over 50, well, kind of a club, sort of. Anyway, Sue you're OK and I think we are all so darn glad to see you back that "Sue" is just on our mind. I think whenever you are dealing with the written word that people can misunderstand and often, in being anxious to help find a solution for someone, I think that any of us can be seen as coming on too strong. I would always ask for clarification if something seemed off. In my opinion, it would be better to face each individual post that one finds offensive which can help alleviate a major battle. And, let's face it, there will be personality conflicts and people just coming from all different walks of life and different parts of the world - always take a deep breath and count to 10, tell yourself and this is probably not nice "that person has rocks for brains anyway so who cares what their opinion is", maybe ask for a clarification, well, like Sue did, she didn't just insult Allan and ask what the heck his problem with her was - see Sue, you provided a good example of how to handle a situation.

[Calla]

something,

I would tend to agree with you there. I was apologizing for something I didn't even know I did. I'll go back and read my past posts and see if I can find it but off the top of my head, I'm not sure. Hopefully I can figure it out so I can try not to do it again. But I agree, it would be much more helpful it I would know where to look rather than speak in generalities.

I still think a lot of this comes down to perception. You and I can read the exact same thing and you may think it's helpful and I may find it hurtful. We who come here for support all come with such a vast difference of needs and tolerances.

I never said you said anything to anyone that was insensitive. I feel pleased to have provoked a strong reaction even if it is all aimed at me because this is a subject that needs debate. As someone said moderators suffer to, so who is to say they have clear judgement?

[Calla]

Oh, Sue, you didn't do anything and I think Allan, in trying to cover all the territory here at the website, just made a slip - I understand this kind of thing - like it's an over 50, well, kind of a club, sort of. Anyway, Sue you're OK and I think we are all so darn glad to see you back that "Sue" is just on our mind. I think whenever you are dealing with the written word that people can misunderstand and often, in being anxious to help find a solution for someone, I think that any of us can be seen as coming on too strong. I would always ask for clarification if something seemed off. In my opinion, it would be better to face each individual post that one finds offensive which can help alleviate a major battle. And, let's face it, there will be personality conflicts and people just coming from all different walks of life and different parts of the world - always take a deep breath and count to 10, tell yourself and this is probably not nice "that person has rocks for brains anyway so who cares what their opinion is", maybe ask for a clarification, well, like Sue did, she didn't just insult Allan and ask what the heck his problem with her was - see Sue, you provided a good example of how to handle a situation.

As I stated, for me this is not about the written word so much as the actions that can be taken and the rules that are so strictly adhered to. For example someone is threatened with being shut down if they talk about suicide....yet aren't most of us here because it is something we think about doing?

[SweetSue]

Hey Im not a moderater :eek:

Im just me !!!!!!

How am I a problem to you 'From the moon' ? :confused:

Sorry if I have upset anyone,

[Calla]

There are several issues for me. Kind of along the same lines. About deleting something or threatening to ban someone etc. When that person is clearly reaching out for help. I've seen it a couple of times now. I know rules are there for a reason but I feel there should be some flexibility.

[Calla]

I feel there is a lot of confusion on here now!! I didnt want to point out all that I was talking about, mostly for the members who posted the original threads. They may not feel how i do about it, or may not want their case argued. I do get a sense of a definited hierarchy here thats all and closed ranks. And to give someone more power over our words than we are given ourselves is not something I agree with either.

[Calla]

I should also point out I didn't think anyone would actually read this, let alone that it would get many responses.

[Calla]

I can guess what you are about to say Mark

[Mark]

Calla said:

There are several issues for me. Kind of along the same lines. About deleting something or threatening to ban someone etc. When that person is clearly reaching out for help. I've seen it a couple of times now. I know rules are there for a reason but I feel there should be some flexibility.

Calla, this place aspires to run according to rules, the most important and basic of which is that we seek to preserve the feeling of safety in the community for the benefit of the people who come here and speak and communicate. This is a very difficult task indeed. Let me underline that. This is a very difficult task.

What makes it difficult is that we are confronted with many different people with many different sensitivities. And we want to be Catholic in our approach (meaning "universal"; not "roman"). We want to serve both the pedophiles who are freaked out by their urges and the victims of pedophiles who are freaked out by their abuse history. This is a very difficult task.

We implement this task through the vehicle of moderators who have the balancing act of being simaltaneously needy people themselves with their own problems and also the closest thing this place has to enforcers or white blood cells/an immune system. This place would be chaos without the moderators. That is a fact. However, looked at from the outside, the moderator role is one of enforcer and possibly even bully. No way around that except for transparency. While we strive for transparency, full transparency is not practical in my judgment (and I am the - hopefully benign - dictator hereabouts) as sometimes strategy for handling delicate situations needs to be discussed in private.

if you (or anyone) is unhappy with the way that our system is working, I encourage you (or anyone) to write me directly at mark@centersite.net or PM me (but I prefer email). I know that moderators can let power go to their heads sometimes and that checks and balances are needed. I serve the function of the "supreme court" and "president" here but the moderators are the "legislative branch". Being far more involved than myself, moderators set the tone and advise what laws need to be corrected/added/deleted. If one or more moderators does something bad I will strive to get to the bottom of it, but if I do something bad they won't let me hear the end of it either. we keep tabs on one another.

Let me ask you a question. I don't know if it is appropriate and it would be up to the current moderators final approval, but would you be open to serving as a moderator if the other moderators concur? Sometimes you don't understand why an action a moderator takes is important until you walk a mile in the moderators shoes. Those shoes can be uncomfortable is what I'm saying (due to the need to balance roles and constituents) and I'm wondering if you are feeling up to the task of putting your money where your mouth is.

Mark

[Guest GingerSnap]

I wanted to reference this article that just came up on the main page: http://www.mentalhelp.net/poc/view_doc.php?type=doc&id=39137&cn=289 - I hope that link works, otherwise just go to the home page and it should be right there at the top of the page unless they post something else before you get there. It is long and goes into a lot of history which is a snooze to me but some people get into that but once you get to the "meat", it is really a good article - you can kind of cheat like I did and just scan down to where they get to where it applies to conversation and today. Sorry, I really did like his article and I enjoyed the other article he had written and, frankly, I don't read very much so........I better quit while I am ahead. Anyway he is good writer and you might want to watch for his articles as well as Allan's which are always good and really easy to read.

[Calla]

Firstly I have always acknowledged a need for rules. And I have always acknowledged moderating them to be a difficult task. However, yes I do feel that sometimes the power goes to people's heads.

I did not want to make this personal or "name and shame" One of the people involved made it clear a long time ago how they felt about me. So I was very aware this may look like petty point scoring. But unfortunately it was turned personal once out of my control and PMed across the whole moderators no doubt. This is what has made it contentious, not my simple please can we think before we act post. Yet as ever i am the one who comes under the barrage of criticism.

My point is that there has to be a degree of putting yourself in the pther persons shoes. In my job we deal with many horrific/heartbreaking/sensitives subjects and the work is seen by millions. I have always been seen as a bit of a "moral conscience" in what I do. "You can't say that it's offensive" "you can't use that shot without a warning" etc. Things that would wash over many of the hardened people I work with. So I admit I am something of a sensitive person who may see offense where someone else would not. But I feel that on a forum that involves people who are feeling suicidal you HAVE to err on the side of over sensitive if you really want to help people. Isn't that why we are here?

Even with the laws in this country you go to trial and the circumstances make a difference to the verdict. It isn't a case of one rule fits all.

Let me answer your question with a question. If I have come here because I am suffering quite severe problems at the moment and mood swinging from one side of the room to another am I suitable....I don't think so. I can admit that. Would it be fair of me given my circumstances to be able to change someones experience here? I do know however that I would never tell someone who is suicidal that if they dont' stop talking I will ban them so would I be following the rules?

As I have asked before what training is given?

[Barbara A]

We want to serve both the pedophiles who are freaked out by their urges and the victims of pedophiles who are freaked out by their abuse history. This is a very difficult task.

Mark

Difficult to say the least. It is very unlikely that a counseling service for both nazis and concentration camp victims would work.

[Guy Out There]

I must say that i have many years experience with operating and running forums of similar size and larger to this one. Moderators are the backbone!!! Without them the place would turn into chaos, HOWEVER.....

...Moderators do often get carried away, i understand i've been there, done that. Of course a certain degree of censorship is needed and posts relating to graphic descriptions or actual instructions which may 'mass offend' should be removed BUT it would be nice for a note to be left in place explaining why this has happened and who by.

There is alot of anger and conflict in this thread about the unfair removal and insensitive responces (i've noticed a fair share of this from members), of course the main duty of senior staff and their moderators is to restrict free speech, telling someone who is 'on the edge' that they cannot express their feelings is just defeating the purpose of this site.

Just my opinion, if you want to complain at me for it, fine i don't care it's your free speech just as much as mine...

[Guest GingerSnap]

Generally I stay away from the topic of suicide because my feelings and what I would have to say probably would not be appreciated - the God thing - but when I have come across it, someone was told to call 911 or go to the nearest emergency room which I feel is good advice - only guessing as suicide is not anything I understand but thinking they need a very personal touch and emergency management. I think the moderators do a really good job 95% of the time and they are usually open to clarifying or looking at another perspective. I, personally, would pm either them or Mark if I had a real issue with someone specific. Personally I think telling someone to call 911 or go to the nearest emergency room is an appropriate approach. I don't most of the people here have contemplated suicide either so I don't there are many experts on the subject and you are talking needing an expert.

[Calla]

I suppose, as has been said before, it's all about perspective. I would have assumed the subject of suicide was quite widely understood here. But I guess maybe not. Maybe thats why the response seems shocking to those of us who have been there and not so shocking to those of us that haven't. But again without going into specifics (which isnt my place) it's hard to explain.

I would never PM Mark unless I felt someone had REALLY overstepped the mark (The mark not the Mark!)

However, a few moderators here have made it clear they don;t like me as I previously stated so nothing would come of PMing them personally. Also in my defence everyone jumps at me for not PMing someone personally. But in the same vein I just posted a little sentence if you look and everyone jumped on it. No one PMed me to see if I meant them or asked for clarification....one rule for some, many rules for others.

[Jetliner]

..........

[Endlessnight]

Hi everyone. I have no idea what originally happened to start this thread, but I agree with what John said: it's all about perspective:

Again, it's all about perspective. I know personally that if I walk into a room expecting to be attacked, I will perceive even the slightest, "off" remark as hostile. But if I walk in knowing that those there are probably feeling just as fragile as I am; that we're all there for the same reason then, it changes everything.

We are all human and will, as humans do, make mistakes; that includes the moderators. They themselves, are struggling with their own problems but from their compassion have agreed to take on the role of being a moderator on this site in order to try and help others with problems which is no easy task all things considered.

Maybe I don't keep up well enough with the threads, but I have never seen any 'cliquish' behaviour on here. All of us are here for one reason: we have problems, and that includes the moderators; all we can do is try and mutually support one another as best we can, and if we sometimes fail, it's not for want of trying.

Please let's try to not get into finger pointing on this site, it doesn't help and may in fact hinder the process we are all striving for: trying to get better.

[Guest SomethingOrOther]

Here's my two cents.

1) if we are talking about what I think we are talking about, then it was a reaction to a post that I actually reported to the mods by using that handy tool nobody mentioned yet: the report button. I didn't report it, because it was directly offensive towards the forum, but it mentioned killing several people now, no discussion. There's two things I found I can do about that post: not take it seriously, or take it seriously, have the IP address tracked, call the cops and.. well.. in case they actually act on something like that.. have them step in to save the day. If someone is a definite threat to themselves or others and puts it online, that makes it an obligation for me to do something about it and I guess that is why people would better not post that kind of determined goodbye messages, because I don't want that obligation, since I can't even decide if it's really that serious. You can argue whether it makes sense to tell them they'll get banned for it, but I think it's clear that an online forum is not the place that can handle acutely dangerous situations.

If we are not talking about that, then I still don't know what we are talking about.

2) The moderators are called insensitive in the first post of this thread. It's not ganging up, when several moderators come in to comment on that, since they all have been addressed and Allan would have floated in anyway due to his posting pattern routines. It's also not surprising they are upset by the statement that the moderators are insensitive and don't stop to ask whether it really means all of them.

[Calla]

I would like to say ONCE AGAIN....that I just put in a little request for people to think before they do something. Yet everyone has jumped on this, made it personal and made me the villian...as always. So I had to in turn make it personal in my defence.

But I am talking about SEVERAL incidences, so we can all stop trying to second guess everything. I have acknowledged the good work that is done. however if you take on such a role you have to be prepared to for some constructive criticism...which lets face it was all this was to start with.

[Calla]

I also find it interesting that when I put out a heartfelt request for advice on where to post a topic which could help many people it was ignored by all but one of the moderators. And Mark, for sure, was no where to be seen then. You have to be controversial to get a reaction on here. And it's clearly a waste of my time if you're only ever going to react to the bad things I say.

[Guest GingerSnap]

Calla: You really don't need to be on the defense. take a deep breath. Also, sometimes posts here just get lost in the shuffle and people don't get the attention they need. I would have to say in nearly the 1 1/2 years that I have been on the website, there is really a "mix" of individuals at this time trying to interact here. I don't want you feel bad about this. If you ever need a "sounding" board, send me a pm asking "Is it me?" I know that can actually help. It can also help if you want to just say something and you are about to burst but know it would not be appropriate. Sometimes a second opinion can help on what is being said or maybe if you connect with someone that has been around a little longer, they might be able to clarify what is going on. I just don't want you to feel ganged up on. You are a valuable member of the community and I have seen you there going down the line trying to give some encouragement to the others making sure that everyone gets some attention. I would talk this "suicide" issue through with Mark over a pm as I am sure he can better clarify what actually goes on with the posts and at what point it becomes an issue and why. Really, talk it out with Mark.

[Guy Out There]

For the record, simply because someone posts "I'm going to kill myself right now and you can't stop me", that doesn't mean they are. Look through my urgent need posts, i have been all fired up saying i'm going to do it and i'm still here.

It's just people's feelings. There is a fine line however and this extends also to posts about "harming other people". What most of you have failed to notice is this is an indirect threat. A different matter would be if someone posted a list of 10 names of the people they were going to 'deal with' that would then become a direct threat to those people and details of the offending members details would need to be logged and handed to the police.

There is a difference between "i'm going to kill someone real soon...." and "Roger Blogger is going to be dead within the next week and i'll have his head on a stick". Moderation in moderation, non need to censor somebody's feelings or in other cases remove peoples right to express themselves and get help from this site.

[Mark]

Calla said:

I also find it interesting that when I put out a heartfelt request for advice on where to post a topic which could help many people it was ignored by all but one of the moderators. And Mark, for sure, was no where to be seen then. You have to be controversial to get a reaction on here. And it's clearly a waste of my time if you're only ever going to react to the bad things I say.

As I read this, I sense an unspoken belief that I'm *supposed* to be here and to be responsive. Across the thread, I sense a similar implicit understanding that the moderators are *supposed* to be able to get it right all the time (e.g, "right to my personal satisfaction"). If anyone out there actually holds these beliefs I want to clarify that I believe they are entirely mistaken about the nature of this place.

This site functions because people care about it enough to keep it functioning. There is no duty that anyone here has to anyone else other than the duty that they themselves put on themselves. The whole thing is *voluntary*; based on compassion. This is not a place for therapy, counseling or any other sort of professional relationship. No participant here is owed any service by anyone else here.

I am here when I have time to be here. I have a lot of other duties I must attend to, based on business and family commitments. Given the limited amount of time I have to spend here, I choose to spend most of it addressing the moderators concerns and questions, as they are doing the most work of anyone here to keep this place useful.

The moderators are an all-volunteer group who do the work they do not because they are power hungry but because they are (mostly) kind and decent folks who have stepped up to the plate when I or some other senior moderator asked them to do so. They don't owe other members anything except that they do their best to be good rule-based moderators.

You may disagree with the rules here, or question whether there was a better way to enforce them that better preserves the fine line between talking about sensitive topics and talking too graphically about sensitive topics. If so, please make your concern/criticism/suggestion known to the community by starting a thread about it and/or emailing me at mark@centersite.net and it will be considered on its merits and practicalities.

Mark

[spiritual_emergency]

Calla: I would never tell someone who is suicidal that if they dont' stop talking I will ban them so would I be following the rules?

I'm not sure I've seen the discussion or post you're referring to. I do however, participate at an online site, similar to this one where one of the rules are that people are not allowed to make posts directly threatening suicide. I'm not certain how that rule is enforced but I can see where some might say it's a bit short-sighted. After all, it's when people are in deep crisis that they're most likely to be feeling that way and might therefore, reach out in some manner.

As I understand it, part of the reason the rule was put in place was because some people also found such posts to be distressing, especially if they didn't know who the person really was and therefore, might be forced to confront their own feelings of powerlessness and helplessness. At the same time, there seemed to be some degree of acceptance for language that was expressed as "ideations" as a continuation of an individual's personal state of mind.

There were times in my own experience where I hit some hard places. For me, what I found helpful was a quiet place, a sanctuary where I could tend to my own wounds in Silence. There have been times when I've attempted to help others create such a sanctuary for themselves but I recognize that what works for one won't work for all. [Ref: Sanctuary]

I hope I haven't detracted from your concerns by sharing my own thoughts. I don't think there are any easy answers. I've noticed that this site does have a place for people who feel they are in urgent need but I can understand if people -- depending on where they are at -- might feel they don't have the strength to offer a hand. Perhaps it might be helpful if people in immediate crisis could be offered a place of quiet sanctuary where they can find the solace of their own silence and also, some potential telephone contacts that might be local to them.

~ Namaste

See also: Silence

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