Virginity Hit

[randomperson]

For me the situation is what it is and likely won't change for a long, long time.

The root of my issues lie in what I discuss now in other threads.

Rejection, coping with low self esteem, fighting with countering false thoughts, troubles with understanding the dating process.

Talking about the fact that I am still a virgin at my age.. especially realizing it is so rare is more of a personal trigger for me now that I discussed what I needed to. I did need to talk about it.. it was the topic thread that brought me here and is very important.. but for me the problems it causes for me in today's society all go back into the other issues in the end. In fact from what I read I am the oldest virgin to ever post in this (worldwide) thread which doesn't really help things for me lol.

Guess I am focusing more on solutions now

However if others wish to discuss things I would be glad to chat more in here again.

[Guest ASchwartz]

Random,

I hope others return and chat again, or, new members join in with old members. Do you think the emotions caused by this keep people away?

By the way, what about solutions? What are your thoughts? As I see it, I agree that finding solutions should be included in this issue.

Allan

[Athena]

This is an important forum, especially for those who continue to struggle with being adult and having no sex or very little sex. That's why I'm concerned. What is keeping you away? Let's return to our discussions here.

Allan

Allan,

A friend of mine recently provided the following comments to me on one of the issues I was grappling with, along the lines of this thread. I found it very helpful - perhaps it will help others here:

On your comment about male/female interactions... Maybe you just have to realize what's wrong with the GAME. Because sex has been made into one, and because the game presumes winners and losers, the result is often that no-win situation you mention. True intimacy got lost in the shuffle. Here's how it works (from my experiences and grossly generalized):

First off, society determined historically that a woman's body was sacred and that it was the ultimate reward for the successful man who could 'win' it. A lot of this had to do with social structures and politics, but needless to say, women learned that their bodies were the currency of their lives. They could get men to pay by being a husband, by being a provider, by being a protector, by being a father, by simply being around, or by just paying... Even now, far too many women use their bodies or by extension either the promise of or delivery of sex to manipulate men. It makes intimacy something that is secondary to appearances and sex acts. It reduces a woman's body to an object of lust and a prize to be earned or won or conquered.

Men, on the other hand have learned the same things. So they consider a woman something to be conquered or seduced. Sex is the goal. The ultimate reward for being who they are, look like they do, perform as they do. So just as women have been reduced to meat for conquest, men have become meat as weapons and used with guile. The game became one of figuring out what a man had to do to pay for the use of the woman, and includes trickery, deceit, lies, and whatever else is at hand - and limited only by the ethics and morals of the man and woman involved. I confess to being this kind of boy-man in my wasted youth (to my shame) but hope that I've grown far beyond that.

The selfish game makes intimacy (including sex) for most something elusive and a constant disappointment. People are so busy scoring the sex game that they never connect enough to find out what real intimacy is. This is something that can never be won, but must be given and there is no winners vs losers involved. It is shared, it is never coerced, and the goal is not to get what you can and run but to know that in order for it all to come together, you must not only focus on the joy of your partner but KNOW they are doing the same thing. Far more complex than the cheap sex game so prevalent today, but also far more rewarding. And far more rare.

For many, life is lived without understanding and no regard for the problems in making relationships an adversarial game. Socrates once said that the unexamined life is not worth living and in part I believe that this is yet another proof of that. If I am right, you - like so many other men and women - have experienced the game and have been left wanting. You enter a relationship with high hopes and dreams and discover that all you've really got is a continuation of the game with fewer potential partners. What you want is intimacy and a true cerebral connection. You want unconditional love with no price tags. You want to know that the physical side is only a component of a larger whole and suspect (rightly) that without both brain and body components, something is always missing. You do not want to be an interchangeable and disposable pawn in a cruel and almost impersonal game, but are looking for completion and intimacy and the joy they provide. Knowing this is just step one... Now, to find it.

[randomperson]

So very well said Athena.

Some cultures virginity is looked at with respect and honor, but not Western society not for men at least. Here it is like Athena said almost like if you are not active there is something wrong with you. It isn't said directly but indirectly. It is almost shameful to admit, though there is nothing wrong with it. And it ties into the personal emotions already felt by the individual making it a difficult topic to discuss.

Solutions involve more than the act of having sex. One has to build self respect and find the ability to be intimate emotionally with another. It is tricky.

I make good close friends so easy. I can make lifelong friends. I struggle seeing the pieces I miss to being able to have a long lasting relationship with a woman still. But I am getting better. I have hope again. First time in a very very long time.. I do have hope.

[Athena]

................

[randomperson]

Very kind of you to mention this. I'm not sure if this is the proper place to mention my faith, but you are correct that it is more about love, faith and Jesus paying the sin debt for us because as we all know we are going to slip time to time.

Thing is I'm not even at the spot where that is the real issue.

I'm just now starting to accept myself and that I'm ok and worthy of being loved by a woman. Next step is getting women.. a woman to pay attention to me longer than a date or two lol. Not until I get past that and get confidence from that will I really be ready to approach the question you ask.

But your right overall it is a looming question.. but no since worrying today over tomorrow's problems for today has enough problem's of its own.

[flander]

Allan,

A friend of mine recently provided the following comments to me on one of the issues I was grappling with, along the lines of this thread. I found it very helpful - perhaps it will help others here

in other words, the "sexual revolution" created a mess and society is worse off because of it.

[randomperson]

in other words, the "sexual revolution" created a mess and society is worse off because of it.

From what I have seen, based off of everything I have learned and read. I totally agree.

It is like no one knows what they want anymore or how to find it. What happened to dating just to have fun?

I believe that is one reason why it is so hard to get multiple dates.. too much pressure on the women way too fast.

[Guest ASchwartz]

Athena,

You expressed the problems very beautifully in your post. I agree with you. Sadly too many people think of relationships as a cat and mouse game in which someone loses and someone wins. Hollywood, in my thinking, has contributed to this much more than the sexual revoluation. I also think that dating has become too much about sex than about getting to know the other person. In fact, it puts too much pressure on people, men and women, to think about sex rather than relating.

So, we can't solve society's problem but how can each person find their own solution? And, what about the idea that no everyone falls into that shallowness? Don't you think that its never too late to find the right person?

Allan

[Athena]

in other words, the "sexual revolution" created a mess and society is worse off because of it.

Yes - it does not give people a chance to get to know each other. And now, I think we've even forgotten how to do that at all. I think communication between couples is taking a huge turn for the worse. Personally, I find distrust a huge communication inhibitor. And how can you have trust when you fear an ulterior motive right from the get-go? I also think the other huge problem resulting from this is the breakdown of the family. I'm still grappling with how I should have done things differently. I did not have the luxury to stop my career to have a family so I had to do both at the same time. It just about killed me.

Athena,

You expressed the problems very beautifully in your post. I agree with you. Sadly too many people think of relationships as a cat and mouse game in which someone loses and someone wins. Hollywood, in my thinking, has contributed to this much more than the sexual revoluation. I also think that dating has become too much about sex than about getting to know the other person. In fact, it puts too much pressure on people, men and women, to think about sex rather than relating.

Perhaps sex too fast is simply another example of "acting out" instead of verbalizing (therapist speak). I think that discussions like this may help us verbalize our emotions and hence communicate better.

So, we can't solve society's problem but how can each person find their own solution? And, what about the idea that no everyone falls into that shallowness? Don't you think that its never too late to find the right person?

Allan

Imagine having a frank discussion like this with a prospective partner. That ought to clear up some problems. And no, I don't think it's ever too late to find the right person. I have seen some recent examples of people falling madly in love in their 70's and 80's. In fact our own former Lieutenant Governor, now 89, is just about to get married to a woman in her 60's. It is truly a love story. Here's the link, as it's rather heartwarming to read: http://www.thestar.com/news/article/969572

[IrmaJean]

I admit to being discouraged and saddened at times with the way sex appears to be regarded... I've always viewed sex as a sacred act, an expression of love that is not judgmental, but rather represents the unconditional giving and sharing of self with another. Granted I have idealistic views and this is my personal opinion, but I think it's important to value, appreciate and respect this. To me, it's all about love. Without that, there is an absence of depth that is meaningful. My opinion and I respect that others may disagree.

RP, I hope you find love in your life soon.

[randomperson]

I admit to being discouraged and saddened at times with the way sex appears to be regarded... I've always viewed sex as a sacred act, an expression of love that is not judgmental, but rather represents the unconditional giving and sharing of self with another. Granted I have idealistic views and this is my personal opinion, but I think it's important to value, appreciate and respect this. To me, it's all about love. Without that, there is an absence of depth that is meaningful. My opinion and I respect that others may disagree.

RP, I hope you find love in your life soon.

This is how I see it too and what makes it difficult for me when society forces it views on people.

..and thank you for your wishing me to find love.. really thank you.

What everyone is talking about is where I am. Where do you find people like this .. willing to listen and see who you are at heart? I'm trying different things ..but life is getting super busy for me right when I am willing to try.. lol figures ;P

..but for once it doesn't matter.. I'm ok

[Guest ASchwartz]

I tend to believe that society cannot force its views on us if we stick to what we believe is right. I know there are a tremendous number of people out there who stick to the kind of views and opinions that Beth so nicely expressed and those people are either living or want to live in ways that are emotionally fulfilling. Sex as sex is not fulfilling, emotionally. Sex in the context of being with a person you love and who loves you is a wonderful and very fulfilling thing.

Allan

[randomperson]

I noticed something very odd in the city where I live.

Seems like there is a role reversal in genders as far as relationships go.

Years ago my mother said women would always be pressured romantically to go further faster than they wanted.

I have been talking, researching.. trying to understand all I have came up on.

One thing I have noticed where I live the roles have reversed somewhat.

I talk to many guys that feel uncomfortable with the pressure of sexual encounters so quickly in a relationship, but feel pressured to give in.

Wondering if this is mutual feeling and some type of communication issue or if we are seeing a start of something larger some type of change in the relationship dynamic. Or if this is just a small sampling of men and atypical.

[Athena]

I have noticed that men in this forum seem to be seeking long term relationships for the most part. I don't see that so much from the women. Perhaps it is that the women see the risk in long term relationships - dual roles of mother and career, sometimes forced into being the sole breadwinner at the same time. Upon retirement, the woman will be expected to "take care of her man" and continue all the household duties as the man is programmed to "retire" at age 65 and expects to be served and "serviced." So then "marriage" becomes a huge risk for a woman and can at the very least be delayed but in my experience should be avoided altogether. So, if women are not waiting for marriage, or the "perfect guy" who they increasingly feel is an extinct species, there is less reason to wait.

Sorry, I know this is highly sexist - it's just been my experience and observation lately.

[randomperson]

Not at all, the only way we can get to the truth of what is bothering us is to be totally open and honest about how we feel.. I am trying to figure all of this out. So it does seem there is some role reversal going on.. it isn't just me thinking this.

Honestly I never expected a woman to take care of me in any way.

I do 90% of the chores for my mother. I just seek companionship, love and someone to share life with. Simply put I'm lonely..

My ex freaked at the thought of marriage commitment of any type really and I never knew why, maybe this has something to do with it.

Overall both genders are feeling more and more disenchanted by dating and find it difficult to find a partner for life. I don't understand this really. Men say the same thing about finding good women. Seems like there is more a disconnect keeping people apart in some way.

My question is why and what is causing it?

What is going wrong and how do we as individuals get past these barriers to find love?

From what I seen women I have dated come into it expecting you to be a creep or something wrong and want you to prove otherwise. Ready to ignore you if you do the slightest thing to prove them right. It is hard to change someone's mind when it is already made up beforehand especially on passions of the heart. Look at politics, religion anything that stirs core values. If this is true what is the answer? Especially when the reaction is being ignored. Arguments and fights even name calling you can work through at least, ignoring is cold and final. In my experience only through open communication can solutions be found, eyes become opened on both sides to the truth of things.

But I am unsure how to open those lines of communication.

[Guest ASchwartz]

Hi Athena and Random,

Both men and women want long term relationships. There may have been serious problems in their early life with family and that makes some of them fearful of commitment. Yet, they still want long term relationships. Its just part of being human. It fulfills a human need for closeness and family.

Random, you will never know why your ex did not want marriage. Be assured that there are plenty of women out there who want to marry.

Allan

[Athena]

Random,

I think real communication between couples is a lost art. People born in the 60's or later (post sexual revolution) were the first to grow up on TV dinners, McDonalds, microwaves, dishwashing machines and other time saving inventions. Women started having careers, having kids later, grandparents are either dead or too frail to help, older sisters and members of the community can't help either (sisters too busy, community non-existent). So not only is the mother's support system and potential training gone, but she's also expected to hold down a full time job to boot. No wonder the kids and families are suffering. Everything is way too fast. Everything meaningful is lost. Sex becomes a chore, talking (about anything meaningful) is a luxury. I've probably spoken to my therapist about topics that really matter in six months more than I talked to my ex in the 20 years I was with him. That's sad.

So what does all that have to do with communication? Well, I recently had a nasty encounter with a current "love interest". I accidentally did something that hurt him. After letting me think he left and was never coming back, he finally contacted me and proceeded to rake me over the coals. I responded by pointing out my reasons for my actions with the intent of showing him I had intended no harm. I thought i'd dealt with his wrath rather intelligently and that i would get some kind of understanding back. Wrong! He responded by attacking all those reasons as completely without any merit whatsoever with such vehemence that I felt like projectiles were being hurled at me. Furthermore, he proceeded to rake me over the coals for the original transgression all over again. When I expressed how unkind he was being, he said he was being a perfect gentleman. So it took me a while, but I realized all communication had stopped. I thought about why. I thought I had said sorry. Perhaps not, or not in those exact words. I thought he knew I felt, heard and acknowledged his pain and felt remorse. I thought i had shown compassion. But I realized I never actually said anything that would demonstrate that. I couldn't believe it. I had thought I had handled things so well and that I was being unfairly punished. But on second thought I saw his point of view. A while back I wouldn't have had the time or capacity to even begin to think like this. And I couldn't have done it if I didn't care a great deal about this man. It took EFFORT. And it took a willingness to put my needs behind his. Not because mine are not as important, but because I'm the one who caused him pain in the first place, albeit unintended.

This wasn't easy or obvious (at least to me!). But it required a step back and a questioning of "wait a second, what's going on here?" And it took unwavering compassion. Now THAT's something i've learned in six months of therapy, but never from my parents.

[randomperson]

That is good growth. Everything you said was powerful. I hope he does understand and you both can work things out. I know communication is difficult. So many times I wonder if I understand what people mean.

Especially when it comes to relationships. Wonder if at times I could have saved failed friendships and so on.

Then again in some cases a cigar is just a cigar and doesn't mean anything else. Some case people are just plain mean. The real challenge is figuring out the difference

PS texting now adays makes communication 10x worse because one sentence can have soooo many meanings and you can't look for facial cues or body language.. just look back at my recent post in the figuring things out thread.

[Athena]

I have found recently that the written word is far more powerful than the spoken word. One has to be so careful and you are right, there arena facial cues to help us.

[randomperson]

Sad part for me almost all the potential relationships I have had were 80-90 via text, minus a few. Got me in trouble so many times. Lot of times I would misread something or put more into it than it was meant.

Something else I am learning is to be more patient in timing. Not to get excited one way or another.

Unfortunately that was something that could only come via experience. Just saying be patient never has the same effect. Kind of like telling a kid to not eat the cupcake and leaving em alone with it lol.

[Athena]

I think some of us get very attached very quickly to people who validate us. Then once you figure that out, you start second guessing yourself and trying to figure out what is real and what is an illusion. At that point, my brain gets fried and I just go numb to it all.

[randomperson]

I think some of us get very attached very quickly to people who validate us. Then once you figure that out, you start second guessing yourself and trying to figure out what is real and what is an illusion. At that point, my brain gets fried and I just go numb to it all.

I hear that. I know just enough about myself for it to be very confusing haha.

For me what I keep stumbling over is my projection of rejection on myself.

I always read negative reactions regarding any type of relationship be it friendship or romantic relationships until I totally trust someone.

So then I have to fight back and forth is this really rejection or just my mind.

Makes things very difficult.

Funny part about it once I trust someone this goes away. If they break that trust it amplifies x10

[Athena]

I think you just have to spend more and more time with people who don't reject you and less time with those that do. You base new relationships and experiences on what you have experienced in the past. Kind of like stereotyping in a way. I'm trying to avoid groups that make me feel uncomfortable. It may sound obvious but to me, it wasn't. And those situations I realized would make lots of people feel uncomfortable so I stopped beating myself up for being such a social outcast - because I'm not at all in most cases, but when I am, it's brutal.

[randomperson]

I think you just have to spend more and more time with people who don't reject you and less time with those that do. You base new relationships and experiences on what you have experienced in the past. Kind of like stereotyping in a way. I'm trying to avoid groups that make me feel uncomfortable. It may sound obvious but to me, it wasn't. And those situations I realized would make lots of people feel uncomfortable so I stopped beating myself up for being such a social outcast - because I'm not at all in most cases, but when I am, it's brutal.

Very true and I think what your saying is very relevant for this thread and many will find it useful. Problem for me I have always found it hard to find the people that do not reject me. Just now I am getting better at it.. still I do find it hard especially with women. Guys not so much, used to find it hard even with them to make close friends now I don't.. women I still have trouble with. I am better with it however. Slow growth.