Conflicting Thoughts Regarding the State of my Future

[Pakhawaj]

we aren't able to diagnose here, so don't take what I say as anything more than one person talking... from what you have written you do not seem evil at all, you seem depressed.

I sometimes feel as if I am misunderstood, but I never quite know why. I was not hoping for a diagnosis and I do not hold your opinion to be the absolute truth of things. Do you have an idea of what it is to be evil?

It is very important to know the difference between feelings and thoughts. People suffering from depression or anxiety can get into a confusion where they think their feelings and feel their thoughts. Life becomes a very painful knot at that point. There is much more to you than your thoughts, just as there is more to you than your feelings. Getting to know the various aspects of your functioning can help you sort out some debilitating confusions inside.

Oh, I understand what you are saying. Maybe I do not know the difference. I don't know how there can be more to someone than thoughts and feelings though.

I did not go to my dad's birthday party today and I don't know whether this is because I am evil or good. I know that if I am imminently apparent to him then I could cause him harm, but I also know that by not being there when he has asked me to come I will cause him grief. It seems that, no matter what I do, as long as I exist I can only cause suffering... Which can't be a good thing really. Maybe I am incapable of goodness. I don't know if this is possible either though. Perhaps, if I believe this I will stop debating whether what I do is good or bad and also stop going in circles, but again I don't know if that would be a good or a bad thing to do.

[Guest SomethingOrOther]

Hi Pakhawaj,

I often read your posts and it's not frowned upon if you post a number of times. As far as I am concerned you can post as often as you like in this thread. I would find it somewhat disturbing if someone would drown the forum in a manic posting frenzy by replying to everything in a way that might not actually make a lot of sense, but I haven't seen that happen. Even if it does happen at some point, that doesn't make the person evil, it'd just be a bit like they put the forum into a mixer and in a couple of days it would grow back to usual. I'll call it forum resilience, because that sounds clever.

I often don't reply to your posts, because I don't know what to say and also I had the impression, if I did, you'd just conclude that you're bothering me.

I don't believe in good and evil much, and I don't believe there's people who are good or evil. Instead I believe you are taking on responsibilities that aren't yours to have. Like when your father wants to have a meal with you, it's his decision whether he can afford it and finds it enjoyable and not yours. If he thinks he has the money and wants to do that, your decision is whether you want to do that too, and not whether your father made the right decision by inviting you.

I don't see good in taking on responsibility for things that are not yours to decide. That just makes your life really complicated without making anyone elses life easier, though that is what I think is your aim, to make other peoples lifes as easy as possible. I think it would be worth noticing that making your own life complicated as such isn't going to do that.

It's another question, whether your presence at the birthday party would have caused your father harm. While I'm not sure how you mean it could have done that, I want to point out that you stayed away, so now you don't know what would have happened there or not. But now you're worried you might have caused your father grief, you could maybe talk to your father about the reasons you stayed away, so that he can understand it better?

I hope some of this makes sense.

S.

[Pakhawaj]

Hi Pakhawaj,

I often read your posts and it's not frowned upon if you post a number of times. As far as I am concerned you can post as often as you like in this thread. I would find it somewhat disturbing if someone would drown the forum in a manic posting frenzy by replying to everything in a way that might not actually make a lot of sense, but I haven't seen that happen. Even if it does happen at some point, that doesn't make the person evil, it'd just be a bit like they put the forum into a mixer and in a couple of days it would grow back to usual. I'll call it forum resilience, because that sounds clever.

Thank you very much for responding to this. I'm sorry I misunderstood etiquette, in the past I have read online forums but this is the first public one I post in so I worry I am being rude because I do not know many simple protocols.

Is my current style and method of posting completely acceptable then? Or should I change something to prevent misfortunes?

I often don't reply to your posts, because I don't know what to say and also I had the impression, if I did, you'd just conclude that you're bothering me.

You're right, I probably would. Thank you for saying this though, it is comforting to know that my words have been realised and considered.

I don't believe in good and evil much, and I don't believe there's people who are good or evil. Instead I believe you are taking on responsibilities that aren't yours to have. Like when your father wants to have a meal with you, it's his decision whether he can afford it and finds it enjoyable and not yours. If he thinks he has the money and wants to do that, your decision is whether you want to do that too, and not whether your father made the right decision by inviting you.

I tend to think, a lot of the time that people are doing these things for me rather than for themselves and that my presence has altered or perverted their natural course of thought and made their lives a small bit harder. I get the impression that other people don't consider the effect I have on their lives and so maybe I should take it upon myself to factor this in. Perhaps you

I don't see good in taking on responsibility for things that are not yours to decide. That just makes your life really complicated without making anyone elses life easier, though that is what I think is your aim, to make other peoples lifes as easy as possible. I think it would be worth noticing that making your own life complicated as such isn't going to do that.

It's another question, whether your presence at the birthday party would have caused your father harm. While I'm not sure how you mean it could have done that, I want to point out that you stayed away, so now you don't know what would have happened there or not. But now you're worried you might have caused your father grief, you could maybe talk to your father about the reasons you stayed away, so that he can understand it better?

I hope some of this makes sense.

S.

My dad doesn't like talking about those sort of things with me and would rather pretend that they don't exist, so I won't talk about that with him, I probably wouldn't any way.

I've just realised that perhaps the main reason I didn't go was an entirely selfish one; I realised that many people I knew in the past would be there and would want to talk to me, but I am a very boring person. In the past, I was less boring and I would rather they don't remember me for being an emotionless twat. I'm sorry for being a horrible person.

I'm sorry if my posts are very boring and similar to each other, typing these things out and sometimes getting responses helps me to clarify my thoughts (or maybe feelings) or maybe it doesn't and I just think it does or maybe it is just another method to help me put up with my life. I really don't know. Sorry.

[finding my way]

Here is an exercise that at least illustrates that thinking and feeling are different. You fill in the blanks:

I feel _______1_________ when _______2________ because _______3______. I want _______4__________ .

When you fill in 1 and 4, those are from your feeling function. When you fill in 2 and 3, you are identifying events and causes which is what the thinking function does best.

Many people end up with a lot of confusion about feelings, and do not feel allowed to have them or that their feelings are ok. They start hiding them and then going into confusing thinking.... constructing negative beliefs about themselves or the world and then fixating on those in their thinking and looping round and round and then feeling worse and worse.

I don't know if that makes any sense or not. In therapy I learned to feel, simply and purely, without all the tangle. That helped me to think purely too. To get there, you kinda have to crawl out of both and observe from yet another place inside....

Therapy is supposed to be about straightening out these confusions.

[Guest SomethingOrOther]

Hi Pakhawaj,

I think your way of posting is fine and you don't need to change it. If you would like more feedback I think it is reasonable to post again after a while and try to make this more clear or find a different way to put things, so that more people might have an answer or comment for you.

To me there's a problem with trying to worry about things "for" other people, because you can only factor in what you expect they might think or feel, without having the possibility to find out how accurate that estimate is.

I can understand why you wouldn't want to be perceived as a boring person and change the picture people have of you negatively. If they don't see you, they'll assume you're still the same, right?

I didn't go to the ten year reunion of my school class either, but mainly because I don't have contact to anyone from that time anymore and just pictured it to be questions about what I do now and it was at a time when I was really depressed about my life. I didn't want to be confronted with a lot of people who have potentially more interesting lifes than myself and are keen on displaying that.

[Pakhawaj]

Here is an exercise that at least illustrates that thinking and feeling are different. You fill in the blanks:

I feel _______1_________ when _______2________ because _______3______. I want _______4__________ .

When you fill in 1 and 4, those are from your feeling function. When you fill in 2 and 3, you are identifying events and causes which is what the thinking function does best.

Many people end up with a lot of confusion about feelings, and do not feel allowed to have them or that their feelings are ok. They start hiding them and then going into confusing thinking.... constructing negative beliefs about themselves or the world and then fixating on those in their thinking and looping round and round and then feeling worse and worse.

I don't know if that makes any sense or not. In therapy I learned to feel, simply and purely, without all the tangle. That helped me to think purely too. To get there, you kinda have to crawl out of both and observe from yet another place inside....

Therapy is supposed to be about straightening out these confusions.

Hi. I tried your exercise, though I found it rather difficult and sometimes I disagreed with the results... I'm sorry. Thank you, for trying.

I'm not sure what I get out of therapy other than someone else to talk to, perhaps I haven't understood something very simple about it.

Hi Pakhawaj,

I think your way of posting is fine and you don't need to change it. If you would like more feedback I think it is reasonable to post again after a while and try to make this more clear or find a different way to put things, so that more people might have an answer or comment for you.

Thank you, though when I post it is usually because I feel overly distraught so is more difficult for me to become coherent. I feel that often I just whinge and moan and say very little.

To me there's a problem with trying to worry about things "for" other people, because you can only factor in what you expect they might think or feel, without having the possibility to find out how accurate that estimate is.

I am very confident in my estimations... I suppose I should not be, but I am.

I can understand why you wouldn't want to be perceived as a boring person and change the picture people have of you negatively. If they don't see you, they'll assume you're still the same, right?

I didn't go to the ten year reunion of my school class either, but mainly because I don't have contact to anyone from that time anymore and just pictured it to be questions about what I do now and it was at a time when I was really depressed about my life. I didn't want to be confronted with a lot of people who have potentially more interesting lifes than myself and are keen on displaying that.

I'm glad you understand. Did you get over the guilt of not going? I am asking so I can gain a perspective of normalcy regarding this situation.

I am no closer to realising if evil exists or if I am evil. I fear that perhaps in not knowing my own nature, I am becoming more evil as I somehow suck the joviality out of life through my internal monologues. I hope I am not becoming superstitious, though my thoughts certainly seem to entertain this notion. I feel like I am becoming like a terrified old man, maybe in making this comparison I have already foretold my fate. I don't know.

I'm really sorry for asking such a stupid question but it is a thought which has just entered my head and entirely unrelated to the nature of evil or any other topic I have talked about. Do you think if I apologised for everything I would feel better about myself? It seems like a massive undertaking to me and I imagine I would have more to be sorry about the more I apologised but I am very tired of being so miserable and so lonely and I want an easy path to freedom (I know I will beat myself up for using that word later, but I cannot think of another that fits the concept, I am very very sorry).

[finding my way]

Pakhawaj, can you list 10 things that you like?

It may sound like I am not listening to you, but I am trying to tune into a different part of you so that you can tune into that different part too....

[Pakhawaj]

Pakhawaj, can you list 10 things that you like?

It may sound like I am not listening to you, but I am trying to tune into a different part of you so that you can tune into that different part too....

Thank you. It doesn't seem to me like you aren't listening, I just presume that you know more than I do and perhaps a lot of what I said is superfluous. I don't know.

I can try to name 10 things I have enjoyed; films, fruit, strategy games, dancing, being with friends or family, linguistics, video games, books, sprinting and over-analysing. A lot of these things I've only enjoyed with friends, so I don't know if they count, I'm sorry.

[finding my way]

Well done!!

Now, what are 3 things you like about yourself, and what are 5 things you like about other people?

[Guest SomethingOrOther]

Well, that was two years ago, and I don't think I felt guilty for not going there. I'm quite certain nobody missed me, because I'm the type that nobody really remembers going to school with. I don't remember most peoples names and most of them won't remember mine either. I had a couple of friends that I met occasionally after school ended, until I spent a year abroad and contact ceased. I met them once more at a marriage of one friend and we were seated at the same table, but they just told me that I should contact them more often and then went on for the whole time talking amonst themselves in a way that I couldn't even participate in the conversation. I concluded that I really don't see what I should contact them for, if they are not interested in talking to me, when I'm sitting right in front of them. The only one being busy with other things was the bride, so I regret that I didn't keep in touch with her a bit.

I felt a bit ashamed, when I didn't go to the school reunion, because I don't have friends there, because I was already lonely in school at the time, I don't have a carreer, a family or any kind of plan about my life to impress people with or even just talk about really, basically all I had at the time was a depression and a mother with cancer. Being social doesn't come naturally to me under normal circumstances and under those I felt like I can only hide. Hide in shame. I did not have ANYTHING to tell people about myself that wouldn't involve talking about depression or death.

I don't really regret that I didn't go there. I regret that my life started to be rubbish so long ago, that ten years isn't even long enough backwards to make it ok. No guilt, though. I learned knitting on youtube, since then I can also talk about socks:p.

I don't know if you'd feel better for apologizing about everything, but is there a lot more to apologize about then what you already apologize about?

[Pakhawaj]

...

Thank you very much for this story, I think it's something worth thinking about. To me, you seem very confident but your story portrays you as less so, have you changed at all? Have you found a reason to exist? Do you have friends? I am sorry if these are too personal, please tell me if you would rather not answer.

I don't know if you'd feel better for apologizing about everything, but is there a lot more to apologize about then what you already apologize about?

I only apologise when I think it is very important to, I don't apologise for everything I do because I think people find my apologising tedious enough as it is and sometimes it is embarrassing apologising for things people were not aware of. Thank you for your honesty, however.

Well done!!

Now, what are 3 things you like about yourself, and what are 5 things you like about other people?

I don't know why you are congratulating me.

I don't have three things I like about myself. I like honesty, humour, thoughtfulness, passion and playfulness in other people.

If it does not spoil the exercise, I would like to know the point of the exercise because I am apprehensive about sharing this sort of information. I am sorry if this is very selfish.

[Guest SomethingOrOther]

I'm quite confident that I didn't miss anything significant by not going to the school reunion. It's a difficult decision to make, though, because I know I have problems with depression and anxiety and there have been other parties, where I was invited by friends, and I didn't go, just because.. well, much the same reasons.. that's why it's a difficult decision.. I felt depressed and uncomfortable with happy people. It is difficult to decide then, if you have reason to expect that you won't enjoy an occasion and there isn't much to be gained, or if you just decide you won't enjoy it, because you feel uncomfortable and scared and need a reason to stay at home.

I have tried to learn better how to distiguish between things I really don't want and things I just feel anxious about. When I can't meet my own expectations, because they're too high, I try not to beat myself up for it as much. It's better like that, because my expectations are always high. And I'm on antidepressants and read CBT books, I suppose that also makes a change. But I'm more or less confident about my thinking, not so much about my doing things.

I went to a party I was invited to by a colleague of mine who is a friend of my best friend and I was anxious about it, because my best friend wouldn't come. But in the end it was really nice, there were few people, it was a little get-together with some food, the colleague was happy about everyone who came and the conversation was okay.

I have one close friend, one close email friend, and a few friends I work on staying in contact with. I don't need a reason to exist, fortunately.

[Pakhawaj]

Please disregard what I have said here, I am a revolting and despicable thing and I am terribly sorry for this.

[Guest SomethingOrOther]

Happy birthday, Pakhawaj!

Don't worry about 20, you're only a day older than yesterday.

CBT is cognitive behavioural therapy, I've read two CBT self-help books. It's basically about identifying self-critical thoughts and discussing whether they are acurate. It's also about seeing negative predictions as predictions and not as facts. Once you get a better self-image it should be easier to change your behaviour in a way that makes life more enjoyable.

You think living would not meet your expectations and then you'd be more disappointed. I understand the idea, that you are less disappointed as long as you haven't tried. I think that way you can keep the idea of how things should be and the hope that they actually are like that, you even have a plan of something you can still try. And all you get from trying is a sense of how it really is. It seems like a bad deal.

S.

[finding my way]

It is possible to imprison or exile aspects of ourselves out of the belief we need to to survive. There is a protective part of us that feels it is only doing what it must. Trouble is, it can be overzealous. Therapy or good feedback from others can awaken us to this dynamic. CBT can do it too.

Here are some signs that you may have an overzealous protector part:

I am a revolting and despicable thing

I don't have three things I like about myself.

What is this part of you that is judging you so harshly up to? Why is he so uncomfortable with you? Can you take a step back and look at him with compassion? He must be very upset about something. Who's expression is he denying?

[Guest SomethingOrOther]

Hi Pakhawaj,

it's possible I misinterpreted your post and I mainly talked about my experiences, so yours can of course be different from that. Was it something about my post that made you uncomfortable about posting? Anyway, I'm not revolted yet, you might have to try harder.

S.

[Pakhawaj]

Hi Pakhawaj,

it's possible I misinterpreted your post and I mainly talked about my experiences, so yours can of course be different from that. Was it something about my post that made you uncomfortable about posting? Anyway, I'm not revolted yet, you might have to try harder.

S.

No, I'm terribly sorry you misunderstood. I deleted what I posted because I was ashamed of what I had said, sometimes I think I think too highly of myself. I couldn't think of a response to what you had typed afterwards, you understood what I was saying. Thank you for explaining what you meant by 'CBT'.

It is possible to imprison or exile aspects of ourselves out of the belief we need to to survive. There is a protective part of us that feels it is only doing what it must. Trouble is, it can be overzealous. Therapy or good feedback from others can awaken us to this dynamic. CBT can do it too.

I think I understand what you are saying, but I can't imagine what I could need protecting from. I don't think my opinions are zealous or overzealous, though they may seem that way.

What is this part of you that is judging you so harshly up to? Why is he so uncomfortable with you? Can you take a step back and look at him with compassion? He must be very upset about something. Who's expression is he denying?

I'm really sorry but I don't think I understand what you are asking me. Are you anthropomorphising the logical part of my brain? I can't separate myself from myself like this. What do you mean when you say denying expression? I'm so sorry I don't understand, I am tired or too stupid.

[Guest SomethingOrOther]

I think, technically, you can't be sorry I misunderstood. I could be sorry I misunderstood, but I'm not, cause I haven't even misunderstood properly. You could be sorry that your actions were open to interpretation, if you liked.

I've had a bad case of feeling worse than before, when I saw a therapist last year, because it didn't seem to help, but I still had one plan less. There's a problem with giving single experiences too much meaning, though, especially for people who felt they had to limit their experiences to begin with.

On the other hand, I feel quite well at the moment ... and now it seems strange to me that it is so easy to get my work finished. I've spent so much time agonizing about it, that it seems wrong not to face any substantial problem with it at all.

I think maybe one of the parts Finding mentioned might be the state of mind in which you wrote the post, and then when you decided to delete it, there must have been some change and maybe that would then be a different part?

[Pakhawaj]

I think, technically, you can't be sorry I misunderstood. I could be sorry I misunderstood, but I'm not, cause I haven't even misunderstood properly. You could be sorry that your actions were open to interpretation, if you liked.

I'm really sorry for not being explicit, obviously I am not brilliant at communicating. I meant to say- I am sorry that I can't communicate clearly enough for you to understand what I am saying.

I think maybe one of the parts Finding mentioned might be the state of mind in which you wrote the post, and then when you decided to delete it, there must have been some change and maybe that would then be a different part?

Oh, I see. When I typed what I had typed I was just being selfish and careless, I think it's normal to apologise for doing this. So the part that is judging me "harshly" is my conscience I suppose.

I'm sorry, finding my way, if I am still misunderstanding.

edit: My sister bought me news shoes for my birthday, though I asked her not to buy me anything. I don't know what to do now, obviously, I do not deserve the shoes and she should have her money, but I don't want to offend her by taking the shoes back. I don't know what the right thing to do is. I can anticipate that if anyone replies to this, they will recommend I keep the shoes, but I would appreciate it if the person who replies would see things from my perspective.

[finding my way]

I see you censoring yourself quite a bit, and people do that. In therapy, you can learn why that is so strong and maybe what to do about that.

There's a part of you that flows out and expresses itself and then another part of you that goes back and censors the first part. In truth, there are many parts to us, because the human brain and the human experience is vast, vast, vast. A way of looking at ourselves and getting organized is to view these different dynamics as different "parts" and learn their characteristics. One's "inner child" is a part many speak of. You can have a manager part, a judge or critic part, a helpless part,... etc.

Happy birthday, belated, pakhawaj!!

[Guest ASchwartz]

Hi Pakhawaj,

I have noticed a couple of things that you have said that I want to clarify for you. There is not topic that is taboo here. We speak about human behavior, thoughts and human feelings. We do not speak of morality because it is psychologically irrelevant and has no place in psychology or in the lives of ordinary people. Morality implies judgment and we are not here to jugde.

For the same reason, we do not speak of good or evil. Those are also judgmental terms. Human behavior may be harmful to one's self but that has nothing to go with evil. We might feel angry at others but that has nothing to do with evil. Evil is a religious type of term and we do not think in those terms.

Finally, you appear to be harshly self critical for almost everything you do or think. Why are you so hard on yourself?

Allan

[Guest SomethingOrOther]

I'm really sorry for not being explicit, obviously I am not brilliant at communicating. I meant to say- I am sorry that I can't communicate clearly enough for you to understand what I am saying.

Well, you said that you frequently feel bad about not apologizing often enough, that's why I'm trying to take this one apart in more detail. So, you can't be sorry for that either, because I understood what you were saying. What I didn't know was why you deleted your post, so I asked. I think if you still want to have done something wrong, it must be that you didn't foresee I was going to be interested in that. I also think you assume I was interested in that because I would have to feel guilty if I "caused" the deletion of your post, but actually I asked for a different reason.

About the shoes, I saw a documentary about Japanese people who are very strict when it comes to making gifts and there's a lot of strange things you can get wrong. I think in Japan it would be very important that you make an acurate estimate of what the shoes are worth and then get your sister a gift of the exact same prize. Do you like the shoes and do they fit?

[Pakhawaj]

I see you censoring yourself quite a bit, and people do that. In therapy, you can learn why that is so strong and maybe what to do about that.

There's a part of you that flows out and expresses itself and then another part of you that goes back and censors the first part. In truth, there are many parts to us, because the human brain and the human experience is vast, vast, vast. A way of looking at ourselves and getting organized is to view these different dynamics as different "parts" and learn their characteristics. One's "inner child" is a part many speak of. You can have a manager part, a judge or critic part, a helpless part,... etc.

I don't think I know enough about this, I'll look it up later (I know this is rude, but I am late for my therapy session which is taking place outside, sorry).

Hi Pakhawaj,

I have noticed a couple of things that you have said that I want to clarify for you. There is not topic that is taboo here. We speak about human behavior, thoughts and human feelings. We do not speak of morality because it is psychologically irrelevant and has no place in psychology or in the lives of ordinary people. Morality implies judgment and we are not here to jugde.

For the same reason, we do not speak of good or evil. Those are also judgmental terms. Human behavior may be harmful to one's self but that has nothing to go with evil. We might feel angry at others but that has nothing to do with evil. Evil is a religious type of term and we do not think in those terms.

Finally, you appear to be harshly self critical for almost everything you do or think. Why are you so hard on yourself?

Allan

Thank you very much for telling me this, I am very sorry for breaking your rules and I will make sure to avoid subjects about or regarding morality. I do not think evil is a religious term however, but it could be superstitious.

I try to maintain a balance of goodness and badness, unfortunately my actions, thoughts and being are perverted against goodness. It sounds strange, but I think it is true.

Well, you said that you frequently feel bad about not apologizing often enough, that's why I'm trying to take this one apart in more detail. So, you can't be sorry for that either, because I understood what you were saying. What I didn't know was why you deleted your post, so I asked. I think if you still want to have done something wrong, it must be that you didn't foresee I was going to be interested in that. I also think you assume I was interested in that because I would have to feel guilty if I "caused" the deletion of your post, but actually I asked for a different reason.

I deleted the post because I was ashamed of what I had typed, and I apologised because I assumed you did not understand. I try my best to be blunt and succinct on this forum, to avoid misapprehensions; I don't wish to hide my motives, or if I do I will explicitly say.

About the shoes, I saw a documentary about Japanese people who are very strict when it comes to making gifts and there's a lot of strange things you can get wrong. I think in Japan it would be very important that you make an acurate estimate of what the shoes are worth and then get your sister a gift of the exact same prize. Do you like the shoes and do they fit?

Thank you very much for this, this is brilliant! I would never have thought of such a simple thing. I will try to get a gift to make up for the shoes. Thank you, I don't know if it was obvious, but I was very worried about this, this solves both of my problems.

I do like the shoes, they don't fit (I received two left shoes), but I have the receipt.

[Guest ASchwartz]

Pak,

We seem to have a communication problem. I did not say that you broke any rules. What I told you is that you are free to talk about anything you need to talk about here.

I am wondering about this miscommunication. Does it happen often to you? Is this part of the way you end up attacking yourself?

Allan

[Guest SomethingOrOther]

Yes, I'm simple-minded.

Still my motives are complex enough not to explain them usually.

I suppose I did understand that you deleted your post, because you felt ashamed, but I wondered if that feeling was triggered by something in your post or in mine. It can be useful for you to know what caused a switch in your feelings, because that's often were unhelpful distortions in ones thinking occur.

S.