Double standard or something else?

[Athena]

I have noticed that my many of my past relationships of a sexual nature have involved massive amounts of guilt, shame and rage afterwards, even years later. I have not had anywhere near the same experiences as some of the child abuse cases described in this forum. I told some of my "creepy" experiences (childhood and otherwise) to my therapist but he hasn't delved into them any deeper so I'm assuming they weren't all that damaging.

I keep obsessing over the double standard. I had to cancel the newspaper because I was cutting out articles of women being stoned, or kidnapped, or forced to wear burkas, or beaten by their own families for being raped, paying dowrys then forced to live as slaves, etc, etc. I feel like I'm preparing to fight all the injustices against women or something.

Words like Slut, Easy, A Tease, dishonoring ones family all get applied to women but not to men. As much as I know this is so unfair, it still seems to be acceptable language in our society and perpetuates guilt in women (at least yours truly).

Anybody else have a problem with this?

[Nessie]

I can see how you might rightly feel that way. I am a man but I get a sense that there are probably a lot of double standards when it comes to men vs. women, even if I haven't experienced it from the point-of-view of a woman.

Example, a woman has an extra-marital affair and people may think she's a home-wrecker. If a man commits violence against a wife caught sleeping around, people might think it's a valid reaction. People might assume a man has an affair because his wife is inadequate and so maybe she deserves it. Or whatever.

In general though, I tend to find that I get disproportionately angry about something when I have no control over it. Example, I have some insecurities about my penis size, which is not something I can change (nor should I have to), and hence it drives me crazy. I feel so helpless that it almost turns into rage.

Similar things happen with injustices in the world, things like you mention, and others. And because I can't really change the whole world, I feel helpless and it turns to anger.

Is this maybe what happens with you?

Anyway, you likely can't change the world (unless you happen to be quite a powerful celebrity or something similar) but there may be smaller ways you can exert some positive energies here. Maybe there are women's rights campaigns, either at a local level, or on the global level (for places where human rights, generally, and specifically women's rights are absolutely horrid...) that could use volunteers or accept donations. I'm sure there must be something...

It may not change the world but if enough people got more involved in this sort of stuff, I have a feeling the world would just be a better place. Unfortunately, these things tend to be slow to change (example, gay marriage is something on my mind right now...what's the big deal?? Why hasn't it happened yet?? What's taking so long??)

So change never happens over night, but seeing some progress being made would be a good thing. I wonder if being involved in that, even if in a small way, would be helpful?

[nathan]

'men are pigs'

'men just want sex'

'men are insensitive'

(cops see a man acting out) ----> they beat the shit out of him

(cops see woman acting out)----> they try to calm her down

commercials/ comedies-- it is always the man who 'just doesn't get it' and should be more like a woman.

These things are endless, for both men and women. People cling onto these ideas, and it is part of our wretchedness....

[Athena]

Nessie:

Yes, I probably will get involved in something after my divorce is over. There are lots of women's groups (and the military) trying to make things better for women who are so obviously oppressed. I'm interested in bridging the gap between those women and western women and dispelling some of the myths that life is so wonderful for us in the western world.

I think we need to come up with some new ways to look at the roles for men and women in a non-traditional family context. So far, the best one I've come up with is that couples jointly hire a "traditional wife", while the man and woman each get to go do what they want with their life, except that they must each be self sufficient and not "leech" off the other. If they become parents then Dads must be taught how to be nurturing parents so that they can take on half the parenting duties. Yes, I think that's finally starting to sound like equality!

I am struggling with boundary issues and morality and "what's expected" right now. I don't believe that what's expected from a working mother in Canada can possibly be achieved by her without completely wiping out her sense of self as well as causing physical and mental deterioration to the point of preferring to be dead.

My ex wanted to go out drinking with the boys, go for his workouts, go golfing during the week and on weekends etc. while i got stuck doing all the family work and child rearing (oh, and he lived off me for five years and never returned the favour!) Nowadays the guys want us to do all the traditional roles plus work plus do 90% of the parenting plus be the one "on top" during sex. Perhaps my ex is more wicked and greedy than most, but I had more than a few women say "Oh he's just a guy, you shouldn't expect 50/50." And from my own (childless by choice) sister, "You should have known all the work would land on you". From my own marital lawyer "You never should have married him or had kids". How utterly depressing!!

So I ask, honestly, do you think those brave young men in Afghanistan are really doing the women over there a favor when we still do not have anything close to equality over here? It's starting to seem like a waste of money until we can get our own act together and not be such hypocrites.

Nathan,

Yes, the guy stereotypes are there too, but at least you don't get stoned or disowned by your family or community for being "a pig".

[randomperson]

I think you hit on a major topic. Society still forces unfair beliefs on to all of us. What the media in any culture deems appropriate becomes justified. it is frustrating at times because you know things are unjust. I know what you are talking about men treating women unfair. I grew up in abuse.. my mother was beat almost every week until I got up old enough to stop it. There was nothing set up to really help her. I still don't think there is. I grew up really sympathetic towards women.. so many don't reach adulthood without being raped.. often by people they trust. Most just keep quite about it and it wrecks them emotionally.

But Nathan is also right there is also bad standards for men as well.

I am a 32 year old virgin.. white male, gamer geek. I am practically laughed at by all of Western pop culture. I have faced bad things, bad times myself.

But what can we do?

How can we change a society so entrenched in it ways?

[CantGiveItAway]

I think you should fight for things you feel passionate about. I would totally be there for my wife when she needed it because I loved her and we were sharing our lives together. As far as what's expected, I wouldn't be so pressured in worrying about whats expected. If you feel strongly in your heart you should do something or live a certain way, you should do it and say fuck what people think.

[Athena]

But what can we do? How can we change a society so entrenched in it ways?

.

I think we need to redefine our anger as a "call to action". Generating awareness of the more subtle, accepted injustices - the ones that don't grab the headlines but that affect so many people. Gather groups of people who don't want to take it anymore. Get a PR strategy together and go for it. Find friends in high places who will help your cause. I think the good, kind, moral, hardworking people are the ones getting taken advantage of but they don't fight for their causes because they are too busy helping others. Perhaps if somebody stirred up the pot, they could find the energy within themselves to fight for THEIR rights for a change.

I think you should fight for things you feel passionate about. …If you feel strongly in your heart you should do something or live a certain way, you should do it and say fuck what people think.

I agree, but it is exhausting having to swim upstream all the time. It has taken 2 1/2 years of going through utter HELL to convince the bleeding heart lawyers that I am not a superwoman/slave and my ex is not some poor uneducated unemployable sod who can't possibly survive without his wife to support him for the next 15 years. And all you hear along the way is, "Just give him what he wants, this is killing you" (yes, but giving him what he wants WILL ABSOLUTELY kill me!), along with the other comments from women I posted about above. So at this point what I'm passionate about is changing the marital laws, and changing women's and men's attitudes about what is really acceptable in a marriage/relationship and what is not. It may have to start with a prenup that addresses not just what you come into the relationship with but expected contributions from both individuals that you both agree on up front along with financial penalties against Net Family Property and Spousal Support/Alimony for not keeping up with your end of the bargain when the marriage ends due to one party being abusive, lazy, demanding and greedy.

[nathan]

Yes, the guy stereotypes are there too, but at least you don't get stoned or disowned by your family or community for being "a pig".

Convoluting things between the east and the west, but I mean yeah, it is terrible that that is happening to women in the east.

I just think you have to be careful when you take on a feminist perspective, a lot of things the feminists say are overlooked. The idea that men sadistically coerced a scheme to oppress women is a bit of misnomer in traditional feminism. Those highly polarized societies of the past evolved, and were CO-CREATED between men AND women due to the pressures they faced back then. Before technology, men HAD to do the heavy physical work, woman could not afford a miscariage, even if they were physically strong enough to do the manuel labour that people faced back then. Becuase men did the work, it only made sense that men would also be the politicians who would DISCUSS WORK. In fact, they didnt even have time to make sense of it--it just started happening.

This was no preplanned intention of men to rule society, it evolved into such. Women were not simply oppresed by men. Men are NOT that piggish, and women are NOT that sheepish. There were other pressures that we forget about in our modern, highly technological society.

However, now that we are in this technological world, for the first time (at least in a long time), the roles of men and women can be free of this gender polarization. And they are. Evidently, women have NOT been so sheepish to ignore this. Women now hold jobs, political positions, w.e. We also see a feminiztion of the man.

Both sexes are really struggling right now, both are having a bit of an identify crises. Even in your writing we can see this struggle. You are struggling between working your ass off a at work(traditionally stricly a man's job), then dealing with everything at home (tradtionally and womans job). But now they have fused together, man and women, equal, the calling of the feminists.

I don't think your husband treated you the way he did becuase he is a man, or becuase women are oppressed, unless you live in affganistan or something. --maybe he is just an a-hole.

As for sex, i don't know what you are talking about, I thoroughly enjoy being on top, in fact, it's much better when I am. apologise if I sound like a bit of and a- hole right now btw, I am a bit drunk.

[CantGiveItAway]

It sounds like he really hurt you and put you through alot. I hope you can find someone to be truly happy with. If you think that certain things are important in a relationship like a contract or a certaing understanding of how you like things to be then thats totally okay. If society says something and you see something wrong with that then you need to take a call to action and rally others. You will live and die with those beliefs. People like women and gay and transexuals and black people are suffering in North Korea,Africa,Afganistan, etc. everywhere and many will suffer after you die. You can only choose what you do and fight for any progress you can.

[Athena]

Convoluting things between the east and the west, but I mean yeah, it is terrible that that is happening to women in the east.

You are quite right. My mistake. Here in Canada this is what they do:

National Post · Tuesday, Dec. 11, 2007

TORONTO -- A Mississauga, Ont., cab driver has been charged with the murder of his 16-year-old daughter, who was attacked in the family home after clashing with her strict Muslim family over whether or not to wear the hijab, the traditional Islamic head scarf for women.

Muhammad Parvez, 57, was charged after his daughter Aqsa Parvez died in hospital late Monday.

The victim’s older brother Waqas Parvez, was charged with obstructing police in connection with the girl’s death.

Police were called to a home in Mississauga early Monday morning by a man who told 911 operators that he had killed his daughter.

They found Aqsa Parvez lying motionless on the floor of her bedroom, to all appearances dead, but paramedics found a faint pulse and rushed her to hospital. The teenager succumbed to her injuries several hours later, police said Tuesday.

Const. J.P. Valade would not give any details about the teenager’s killing, but police sources said she was strangled.

...and this is just one of many.

[nathan]

You are quite right. My mistake. Here in Canada this is what they do:

I remember hearing about that too, I was pretty shocked. But first of alll, the only reason that made the news is precisely beacuse WE DO NOT do that in Canada. It was shocking to us that it did happen, so it was reported and people were shocked. Stuff like that happens all the time in the East, but its not reported in the news, its expected.

The cultural contexts were again convoluted, we had a muslim in canada, with eastern morals in his head. We don't stand for this in Canada---aside from the inherent contradiction of multiculturalism, which states that every creed is equal, but then shuns creeds that do not promote equality, which is virtually everyone that is not multicultural.

And thats exactly what happened here...We say oh hello muslim with eastern morals! You are welcome here becuase we are multicultral, we believe that every culture is equal so come on in!!! The muslim then enters our country, the muslim hasn't reached a multicultural perspective, but hey, apparantly I am allowed to be muslim here. SO HE WAS.

Then when he acts out is Eastern morals in our 'multicultural' society' suddenly we freak out!! We say wtf are you doing man, we don't stand for that sh!!t!! The muslim then is like wtf, you said I could be muslim!?>!?>! It like bringing a dog to sit at the dinner table under the name of 'equality'--you shouldnt expect it to use the a fork--yet we do.

This nothing to do with female oppresssion in canada.

[CantGiveItAway]

Peoples cultures are so different and what people believe to be right is so different. I live in America. You should have freedom of religion without judgement and that includes Muslims families. If it is a sign of devotion to God for a woman to do certain things or wear a burka and she chooses to then that should be her right. There are great muslims that God loves just as much as the other people but if muslims think they can kill or humiliate their women and children or others that don't think like them. They're fucking crazy and that will never be accepted in the West.