figuring things out

[Athena]

And notice what happens? I've done this myself. what happens is we create our own hierarchy, independant from everyone else where we make ourselves the king. Unfortunetely this 'king' hasnt gone through the necessary growth to really be an alpha. This is the poison of there is any. Becuase when we do this, and then socialize with people, we impose a false self righteousness and this just wreaks repulsion. That is a poisonous and false alpha--not an alpha at all actually, no one will follow you unless forced to or decieved in some way.

This makes a lot of sense to me. My ex was an "Alpha wanna be". False self righteousness, entitlement attitude, full of himself, poisonous, Narcissist - yet everybody including myself knew he was a liar, a bullshitter, a fraud. He would have been a decent person if he had cared about others instead of proving how amazing he was (WASN'T). He ended up quitting his real job to run a so-called business to coach business owners on how to "get to the next level". I found out he was telling his clients, "Just follow my system, look how many holidays "C" and I go on and look how much golfing I do. It's because I follow my own system, I work smart not hard, and we are entitled to lots of time off because we are entrepreneurs." I just about puked. His business lost money every single year. I was paying for everything, busting my butt, even talking on the phone and typing on the computer while nursing a baby, had a special nursing pillow that strapped onto me so I could be the ultimate supermom. (OUCH, there went my back!) And he was living off me. I was his enabler - I enabled him to appear ALPHA and I was the biggest idiot wife in the world to let him get away with it. Stay as far away from this type of person as you can possibly get. And absolutely - do NOT aspire to be like them.

[randomperson]

Thank you all for your kind posts and input. Nathan I am doing a little better

and I have taken a lot that you said to heart.

I studied about some of this a little years ago in my quest to better understand people.

It is complex and up to interpretation. Personally I think we do carry over traits but I think we can and do step over normal natural animal instincts.

Humanity is unique we have self awareness (or can have) and that makes all the difference.

Perhaps we do have to play by rules of the game but it does not mean we can not also bend the rules and by doing so change the game itself. Rules that govern us are always in flux always changing.

I think as a society we have moved past most of this and it has developed into something much more complex.

Also there is a difference between being a boss and being a leader which is basically what an alpha is.

We are all looking to be leaders yet most end up being bosses. First of all anyone with self esteem can be a boss. It just requires imposing your will onto others.

It is different to inspire others to follow your lead to be truly self aware and confident in yourself.. to have power yet not abuse it.

This is the true alpha traits that we all deep down desire in some way. The difference is developing win/win situations rather than win/lose. Where both sides have something to gain.

Abusive people can never be true alphas (or leaders) because they lack real leadership. I felt so many women are lulled into thinking abusive men have that trait and I felt it to be frustrating to me as it is a lie.

[Athena]

I just want to find my equal. Someone that I don't put on such a pedestal that I'm in constant fear of losing him. But also - not somebody who is too many steps behind me be it in maturity, self awareness, status, physical fitness, healthy lifestyle, self sufficiency, and ability to have fun, communicate, love and empathize.

[randomperson]

I know that pain very much and I am sorry you are hurting, that you have been through so much.

I have been lonely so long I think I am afraid to find someone now.

I naturally back away without thinking about it or subconsciously scare people off.

I'm not really sure why either. It is not something I have focused on.

With so many other pressing emotional issues I have been working on it kinda took a back seat.

[Athena]

Random,

How are things going with the girl in the office?

[randomperson]

Thanks for so much Athena for all your messages

your keeping my spirits up

Honestly I have stopped trying. Boss took us out to lunch one day and his car battery was dead so he volunteered me to drive lol. The back seat of my car was a mess and guess what that is where she had to sit. The lunch was awkward because he was talking to a business client the whole time.

I have tried starting up a friendly conversation afterwards. She talks but doesn't 'carry on' the conversation. I'm not good at this sort of stuff.. and I realized trying keeps me more stressed and worried than when I am not trying.

I'm at a really odd spot. Not totally at peace.. yet not super stressed.

I have a strong understanding of where I am in life but very confused. Lonely with friends helping me.

The whole thing is strange. Neutral is the best word to describe it. But neutral is an improvement for me.. especially from where I was. Not sure what I want in life, out of life anymore. Never have had that problem before.. always just the opposite.. knew what I wanted just never could reach it.. like a carrot on a stick. Mind is a little messed up and I don't know what I want or what my goals are anymore. Yet I understand myself better than I ever have.. how is that even possible? lol

For relationships the big thing is I can't read flirts, or women's reactions well.

At all lol. I am just too new to this, plus I always have had trouble reading people in general. The learning curve is almost too steep.

I have several male friends my age that have gave up on dating all together.. been thinking the same. Did once before and after 5 years of adjustment and mental conditioning to that way of thinking was the happiest I have ever been.. minus the false happy spots in my life. ..Don't know what I should do really.. or what I truly want.. as I said very very confused. Not hurt, sad.. anything like that just confused.

[randomperson]

So after reading today's posts I did think to 'test the water' and I checked with the office girl about her move at the end of the month. She now says she got some guys at her church to come help her.. so yeah think there was interest at one time.. not anymore.

Top it off my boss talked about dropping a huge chunk of what I do and is looking at how much profit it brings in vs cost.. which is 70-80% of my job right now. I'm ok.. just not the best day for me.

Nathan made another thread talking about how competitive dating is for guys.

He is right I'm not sure why either like Allan said it is not like guys way out number women.. (I hear of guys dating 10 women at a time without them knowing it or caring that might be part of the issue just jerks misusing women..)

regardless it is just like this, hard to find someone.. and the deeper I look at it the more I wonder if it is worth the high stress and trudging through my phobias just for a rare chance I might find someone that actually understands me.

But I'm ok

just venting.. lot of stress popped up in a short time.

[Athena]

Sorry about all your troubles Random. Have you tried "scripting"? By that I mean, just coming up with topics ahead of time that would likely be of interest to the woman and keep her talking. Like Family, music, vacations (recent or planned). I play a game with my kids we call "would you rather...? You basically say two different things (ok, on a kid level - would you rather have ice cream or French fries?). Not sure how well it would work between adults, but you sure get to know each other and it can go on for a long time, at least with kids, who otherwise would have very little to say sometimes to an adult.

Just some rambling thoughts. Think I should go to bed now. Good night. Sleep well.

[Guest ASchwartz]

Hi Random, Nathan and All,

But, we human beings are not wolves and do not live in packs or by pack mentality. We do not fall into Alpha and Omega categories. The idea is for each person to find a partner with whom they can have a loving and caring intimate life. Don't you think?

Random, I don't understand what you don't understand about competiveness and women. But, I'm not just jesting. Could you explain? That way I could clarify.

What do all of you think?

Allan

[randomperson]

I'm really not feeling too bad. Things are better for me. Pretty much back to normal past the chaos of the last 2 years.

Allan thank you for your message. I always find what you say to be very thought provoking and helpful.

The best I can explain things is to say what happened.

In my heart I gave up on myself being capable of finding someone I liked years ago. When I did, I chose to focus on a dream to create a product that would sell in a store, because I am an artist at heart or was. I would have spots where I would get really lonely sometimes clutz through an shaming spot where I would force myself to ask someone out not knowing what I was doing and get harshly rejected. Took over a decade of learning and hard work but I actually achieved my dream of creating a product sold in mainstream stores! For the first time I was happy being single and alone. For the first time in my life I was happy.

Ironic that year I was working on it I got in the long distance relationship I always talk about.. by accident really didn't expect her to say yes.

Changed my perspective on everything. I saw what it was like to love and be loved and what it would be like to have a child.

Then it was yanked away in such a manner it triggered all of my past phobias and problems to the max. Even the abuse symptoms were triggered because I had to help her out of her abusive situation right before I was dumped.

Not only that the business I was working on flopped because of the economy. Went from about to achieve all my dreams to having nothing.. no goals no dreams.

I went from one recent perspective change on life to a dark void. I couldn't go back yet had nothing to cling on to for hope. My friends left then all the bad stuff started to happen. I got very suicidal. That is when I tried the dating sites just out of desperation.. lol a suicidal guy on the verge of insanity is not a great candidate for online dating.

But with time and the help of caring people things heal. I for the most part have healed but it has left me with my mind a bit scrambled. I don't know what to think or believe anymore about myself or about life in general. Many things I held tight on proved to not work, though some did.. so essentially it has left gaps in my thinking and reasoning. I'm not sure what I even want anymore. I know people see things differently and that many views of the same picture can be true.. but in a way that is hurting me too. It is like I don't know what perspectives are real.

Honestly I don't know if what I am saying makes any logical sense.

[Athena]

My gut reaction - struggling to find some meaning to your life?

If I am remotely on target, YOU ARE NOT ALONE:eek:

[randomperson]

Thank you Athena your recent messages have meant a lot.

I'm not sure, maybe. My thoughts are so scrambled now it is hard to tell.

Words just kinda bounce around in my head and I am trying to grasp on to things but it is like grabbing onto water.

[randomperson]

Loving the dentastix banner ad

[nathan]

But, we human beings are not wolves and do not live in packs or by pack mentality. We do not fall into Alpha and Omega categories. The idea is for each person to find a partner with whom they can have a loving and caring intimate life. Don't you think?

I think we do live in packs, why we call hermits, hermits? We seem to be social animals and there seems to be heirarchies like every other social animal. You can find more dominineering people than others, you can also find more submissive people than others. It maniifests in different ways, such as eye contact, confidence, attitude, tone of voice, posture, or , anxiousness, fear, w/e. We have higher cognitive abilities than other animals, but this doesn't negate our more primitive instincts, it's just an addition to it.

IF you are extremely submissive, anxious, and fearful- omega traits, then you are going to have a very difficult time attracting a mate, if you are male.

Same goes for the omega wolf. But you can change, you can learn.

I can see why its easy to deny this, becuase we can 'rationalize' above it. We can come up with ideals, "like everybody is equal" and "everybody should find a partner and live a fullfilling life"- wolves definitely can't do that- but this ideal doesn't take away our primitive instincts. It doesn't make women choose submissive men. I think if you are an omega, you have to face the hierchies and learn, overcome, not face away in denial, thats stagnant.

[malign]

Nathan,

We are definitely social animals. Hermits are remarkable, because honestly, most of us want to live around other humans, to at least some extent.

The difficulty is that human societies are way more complex than animal ones. The dominance hierarchy of, say, wolves or chimps is pervasive. Pack dominance influences all aspects of their relations.

But instead of a single hierarchy in human society, there are many; so many that it can be hard to pick the most important. Why do we have more than other animals? Two factors, I'd say: we are virtually free of the natural selection factors that define dominance for other species, and we are intelligent. Intelligence allows us to value traits such as compassion, which might even be counter-productive from the standpoint of an individual's survival.

Some people are attracted to good looks. Some are attracted to money, no matter how ugly its possessor might be. Some are attracted to intelligence, to the detriment of the other factors. And even if you wanted to claim that the most alpha human combines all of these traits, there are those who seek their opposites.

In fact, many humans would object to any scheme which rates people along a single spectrum from alpha to omega, or even several. It's possible that humans are too complex for that simple mechanistic model of our society.

Maybe I'm rationalizing. Or maybe there's more to humans than logic and reason.

I've met women who would choose a submissive man over a dominant one. Some might say I married one. I also know many women who would run from an aggressive, dominant man, wanting a life of their own. Certainly, we still feel pulls from our instincts, but even if I accepted that male dominance of women was instinctual, which I don't, we are far more than a bundle of action patterns.

[nathan]

Its not just male dominance of women, its male dominance of other males.

I agree there are many spectrums due to our intelligence. Natural selection does occur in us, but in more varying ways, it's not so restricted to our simple biology (if at all). Take a look at Richard dawkin's "memes".

Yes some woman are attracted to money, some have fetishes for intelligence, and so on. But it is not that simple. There are many men with money. There are many intelligent men too. there are choices. If you are attractive women, you can make a choice. And the chances are, if there is one intelligent men who is very submissive (omega), and another intelligent man who is very strong and confident (alpha), then she is probably going to choose the latter. You know that story where the man with the nice house and care and job, but no woman?

Yes woman do marry submissive men, my dad was (is) that type. I learned next to nothing in terms of attracting women from him. The man hasnt had sex in decades. But convoluting marriage and attraction is not always a straight thing to do.

There are many hierarchies created by our 'higher' more complex lives. I suppose you could say there are hierarchies in wealth. Perhaps you could say there are 'cognitive hierarchies' aswell. But these are all additions to the one, and singular hierarchy that we started with, the instinctual hierarchy of dominance and sexual attraction.

If you lack in this heirarchy, then you are handicapped. Also, however, if you lack in the modern heirarchies that you speak of, you will also be handicapped. Just like the attrctive women who is goes for the intelligent man who is ALSO confidant and attractive, rather than the man who is intelligent and submissive.

[randomperson]

I'm realizing what I am doing is only part of the answer as it seems I keep falling back into my same traps. I made two recent mistakes that are eating at me today. One I told my boss I was taking off today last Friday and also posted it on the office calendar he approved it so I thought things were fine. Turns out I did not make it public on the calendar to show up for everyone and he forgot I told him, got a call asking about it. I'm sure things are ok he is a good person.. but with the chance of a lay off still makes me very nervous.

At the same time I made a huge mistake on my own I added my ex on my FB FL again. It all brought reality back in my face.

I'm on the right track with the 'idea' of the direction I need to go.. it is like I have the map but not a car to get to the destination.

..I hate to say it but I might need help.. I don't want to be like this anymore.. I hate it and I hate life.. but I don't want to. I don't want to be like this anymore.

To Malign, Allan what do I do?

I went to the Dr when I was hurting the most 2 years ago got meds and it nearly drove me to kill myself and made things much much worse. Changed my whole personality. At this spot I can't risk that or any mental crashes worse than I have now.. too much is on the line.

Also I don't think I can afford a therapist.. especially with the small chance I might be laid off. Not even sure I can afford constant medication..

[58corvette]

You have made great Strides my friend in the Right Direction for Yourself in Many Ways.

Keep Plugging Bud; Im here for Ya!!!

The Best To You ALWAYS

Sincerely; Jim

[randomperson]

You have made great Strides my friend in the Right Direction for Yourself in Many Ways.

Keep Plugging Bud; Im here for Ya!!!

The Best To You ALWAYS

Sincerely; Jim

Thank you very much. You know this site has made all the difference. Normally I would be giving up right now. But what time I have spent on here today getting help from my friends refreshed my hope..

Thank you to everyone..

I don't feel judged here. That is unique for me.

I almost teared up lol.. I realized this is the first place I have came where I go "I'm broken" and instead of hearing ok so, or yes you are or simply a rolling of the eyes.. I hear "I'm sorry your hurt.. I have been where you are, your not broken lets get through this together"

I can't tell you what that means to me.

[randomperson]

Doing better today thanks in large part to the people in this forum

I realized what triggered all of this. It was a series of different events that happened in a short period of time. One was the potential lay off at work overall it has me more on edge. Two is the realization that it wouldn't work between me and the person at work.. the way she did it though not bad at all.. the uneasiness portrayed..triggered my self doubts and 'nerdy' self perception deeply. Three my mother and ex's sister have been telling me about patience along with the book I just read about perceptions and deeply listening made me wonder if I misjudged my ex. One story about the pic she was sending me for Christmas for example her sister said she did not send it because she was worried of her weight. All of it combined gave me a sense that I was in fact too broken to find love. The sense that she was the only one that has accpeted me in the past and maybe I misjudged her that if I was understanding as a friend it would help us both. Well I did get her talking again and added on her FB FL as said in other posts.. but what a mistake that was...

I read stuff on her wall that mixed my feelings up more, combined with knowing her semi ignoring me was unique to me got me really down on myself. It also made me realize I was still rushing things by sending her a FR in the first place and I would be rushing and super rude if I deleted her off (especially after I asked to be added). I felt really down like I hadn't learned a thing and there was no point in trying anymore. That is when I came in here not knowing what I was feeling at the time or even what I have really learned. I just knew I felt really bad about things and about myself.

But y'all helped me to see I have grown and I am learning.

Thanks to the help I got this week I was able to look back and see what triggered all of this.. which is new on its own for me.

[58corvette]

:cool:

Right On Random

Sincerely; Jim

[Athena]

Random,

Some time ago, my therapist got into my head. I mean, not just in therapy, but other times, it was like I was having a conversation with him - driving, cooking, whatever I was doing where my mind was able to wander. Anyway, those were pretty helpful (albeit imaginary) conversations. Perhaps you could put a "wise therapist" up there in your head and tell him/her your troubles and ask what he/she thinks. And since you can't listen to two people at once, perhaps your inner critic will just SHUT UP for a while and let somebody else do the talking for a change! And the nice thing about the "therapist upstairs" is THEY ARE FREE:). You may even model them after somebody here who you find particularly wise and together, and who you have a lot of respect for.

I can't say it's working for me right now, I'm desperately trying to get my "wise therapist" back in my head to stop me from doing the crazy things I do that get me into so much trouble. But anyway, that was just the thought that came to me as I read your post.

[randomperson]

..................

[malign]

Well, you certainly won't find someone else if you stay fixated on her.

But to my mind, this cycle really doesn't involve her. As you said, "why do I go back" is the important question. It's your mind that you need to change, not hers.

Happy Valentine's Day, Rand.

To me, it's about celebrating all your relationships, not just one romantic one. Here's to growth, more relationships, and more growth!

[randomperson]

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