Nothing has changed

[Nessie]

On the other side of the coin, every time that someone says "women don't care about it", it makes one think "then why do all the ones I run into seem to care? Am I making all of this stuff up?". The interviews asking women what they liked/disliked was somewhat comforting in that meant that some of that wasn't just a figment of my imagination.

I think I experienced the same...for a while, I kept meeting people through the same channels and the results were almost always the same. So you try harder...and harder...and get to failure faster...and faster...and then wonder why you even keep bothering. It burns up so much energy.

But I don't think the trying part, and even trying hard, was the problem.

I think the main problem was that I was in a terrible mental state and I wonder now if some people aren't able to sense that...healthy people might be scared off....and people that "thrive" on unhealthy situations might be attracted to this...

On top of that, I was using a busted strategy (for me) to meet people...I don't even like bars or parties, why should I have expected to meet people I'd have something in common with there??

I was probably also using a busted strategy (again for me) to determine their suitability for dating. It's harder to describe exactly what that was but I'm pretty sure I was consistently choosing people that were abusive, alcoholics, very unstable, very superficial.

In any case, I can tell you that I ended up with lots of people that were not good for me!

So that's why I was thinking you might have to try to get creative and try something really different.

[performer-uk]

Well, I'm definitely real.

I can remember back in 1986 how I would continue to rewind the videotape and watch the ball go through Bill Buckner's legs over and over again. Back then it was fairly heartbreaking for me and yet I watched that replay for weeks. Of course this is no comparison, but the point being, why do we at times seem to seek out exactly what hurts us? It's curious really.

I haven't read stuff like that very often, nor have I seen stuff like that very often. It feels fairly demeaning of the act to me, though that is admittedly a personal reaction. At the end of the day, if you're looking for a long-term partner, you will most likely (and every relationship is different of course) not have "pornographic" type of intimate relations 4 times a day. This is largely fantasy. Your life partner is ideally a best friend who loves and accepts you as you are. You share the good days and the bad. You sit with them when they're hurt, sick, angry, down. You go through unemployment and bills and leaky roofs. You button up their shirt when they can't do it themselves, you go to work for them when their back hurts, you recognize that they had a bad day at work the minute they walk in the door, you wait up to be sure they got to work safely in the snow storm, you sit with them at night and watch the latest episode of your favorite tv show, you make dinner together...Relationships are about sharing and being there with a person day after day. That's what love and caring is about. Not penis size. Not performance. Togetherness. sharing. Opening your minds up to the possibility of this might shine a light on what is truly important in life and love. Consider your gifts. Kindness. Caring. Sense of humor. Intelligence. You're human beings. Not objects for women to "rate". All of you deserve acceptance and love. When you feel that from within and truly believe it, things will begin to turn around.

If this stuff upsets and hurts you, then why do you keep reading it? I don't want to upset anyone and no need to respond...but maybe something to think about.

You know something, thats very moving to read.......

[performer-uk]

I can definitely empathize. These women sound like my ex. For FIVE years, i bought every dinner out, every special Valentines night out, every vacation, paid every bill, etc etc because my ex decided I was his personal bank account. And I could go on, but this is your thread. You can read my rants somewhere else. So why did I marry him? No self esteem. Why did I let myself get mistreated by him? No self esteem. I didn't think I could do any better. I settled for somebody that i know now i didn't even love.

Once again, it comes down to self esteem. If you don't have any, you attract people of a lower calibre. Look up "The Law of Attraction". Basically, you attract everything bad in your life by your negative beliefs, in this case your negative beliefs about yourself.

So why bother listening to me when I obviously haven't got my act together? Because things are changing. I was recently given a gift. And that gift was hope. Before that I had absolutely none. Nothing would ever change, nobody could ever help me. No drug would ever cure me. I do not have hope every day, some days I am utterly hopeless. But I have enough hope now to LISTEN to the right people, not the ones who are bad for me. So please believe that things are not utterly hopeless. Seek out the people who can help you, who you have faith in, who give you hope.

The law of attraction stuff I like to read, but it never sat well with me as anything real, ie I dont take any of it literally. Babies who get diseases have not attracted it into their lives, they were just unlucky.

However where it is correct is that issue of personal freedom and empowerment. If you arent looking for something good, chances are you wont get it. If you have confidence and feel you deserve what you are trying to get, you have much more chance of success......to me THATs where it works. Only posting my take on that because its important to me to be clear whatworks for me and what doest

[flander]

My neighbor's girlfriend still wakes me up at times with her damn moaning and screaming at all hours of the night. Most of the time the weather radio drowns it out, but if there's nothing being broadcast, it turns off.

It looks like they decided to make an early start of it tonight and were making a racket at 6pm. I was just waking up from a nice afternoon nap too. Just what I wanted to hear: some woman moaning, groaning, having a great time with someone else, and reminding me about something I've never been any good at or done in years. The new residents that moved in upstairs woke me up a couple nights ago too. bastards!

[IrmaJean]

I'm sorry this was upsetting and painful for you, flander. As to "not being good at it", why judge yourself in performance? It's a personal expression of love and affection. You may meet someone special at any moment. Sometimes life can bring good surprises too, if you remain open to the positive possibilities. Do you ever have the chance to socialize?

[flander]

I'm sorry this was upsetting and painful for you, flander. As to "not being good at it", why judge yourself in performance? It's a personal expression of love and affection.

I get that, but what's the point if they look & sound bored most of the time?

You may meet someone special at any moment. Sometimes life can bring good surprises too, if you remain open to the positive possibilities. Do you ever have the chance to socialize?

not really. But the times I do, I usually end up being an observer and feeling worse than if I stayed at home.

[IrmaJean]

I've been practicing "forcing" behaviors that I don't truly feel or connect with just yet. I have forced assertiveness without actually feeling assertive. It's uncomfortable sometimes, but I think discomfort is sometimes necessary for change/growth. I can be too passive sometimes and this can lead to my being held back by my fears (or being taken advantage of). I've been trying to challenge that. Maybe you might try the same while you are out? Try approaching someone and saying hello. You might find it gets a bit easier as you do it more. Try not to place any expectations on it right away. I think positive results will come in time if you are able to relax and simply be yourself.

Perhaps the subdued response during intimate relations had more to do with your partner than you. Or maybe it reflected more on the state of the relationship? It doesn't mean you were doing anything wrong or that it didn't feel pleasurable. Not every woman may be vocal. They may instead take pleasure in, rather than express it outwardly with sounds and such...

Take care.

[Nessie]

Maybe you might try the same while you are out? Try approaching someone and saying hello. You might find it gets a bit easier as you do it more. Try not to place any expectations on it right away. I think positive results will come in time if you are able to relax and simply be yourself.

Sounds like good advice to me.

Also, one thing I also did once I started to get back out dating (after meeting lots of bad people) was to make a point of meeting different kinds of people than I had normally been attracted to. I guess my theory was that I kept going for the same kinds of people and mostly had similar types of bad results...

[Athena]

Nessie,

Just curious. Are the "good ones" for you the ones who are more confident, more at ease with themselves, more fun, etc - and because of that, possibly in the past you would have viewed as inaccessible, or more likely to reject you?

If not, I'd love to hear how you characterize the difference.

[flander]

Perhaps the subdued response during intimate relations had more to do with your partner than you. Or maybe it reflected more on the state of the relationship? It doesn't mean you were doing anything wrong or that it didn't feel pleasurable. Not every woman may be vocal. They may instead take pleasure in, rather than express it outwardly with sounds and such...

Take care.

I suppose that could be true. But what would you think if your partner looked bored as if they were waiting for an appointment in a dentist's office? Or that the best sex they ever had with you was when you were asleep? I think she liked foreplay more than the main event.

But what happened 10+ years ago or how I feel about it isn't going to make that big of a deal anytime in the near future. I'd like to be able to address it at the time of my choosing and not have my sleep interrupted with a bunch of bad memories.

[IrmaJean]

Flander, did you and your wife have happy times together too? Positives in your relationship? Certainly your children...They are a beautiful reminder of your relationship. I imagine there are pleasant memories for her as well. I'm sorry things didn't work out. Take care today, flander.

[Guest SomethingOrOther]

I know it has more meaning for you, flander, but even if it didn't, you'd still have your sleep interrupted, because it's noise. And you're right, you don't have to accept that.

[flander]

Flander, did you and your wife have happy times together too? Positives in your relationship? Certainly your children...They are a beautiful reminder of your relationship. I imagine there are pleasant memories for her as well. I'm sorry things didn't work out. Take care today, flander.

Unfortunately, it's too easy to dredge up the bad.

[Nessie]

Unfortunately, it's too easy to dredge up the bad.

It's weird, I'm finding the same. I always come back to the bad events and replay them over and over. I don't think I've ever replayed a positive event in the same way, not even close.

Why do we do this? It doesn't make any sense...

[Nessie]

Nessie,

Just curious. Are the "good ones" for you the ones who are more confident, more at ease with themselves, more fun, etc - and because of that, possibly in the past you would have viewed as inaccessible, or more likely to reject you?

If not, I'd love to hear how you characterize the difference.

Well, I met all of these people at bars. All of them were heavy drinkers, some of them did drugs, most of them were very superficial people. I think I was also attracted to razor (blade) wit and sarcasm...I can't count the times this sort of thing was turned against me during a fight. I had a lot of mean things directed at me.

Anyway, I've had better luck with earthy, intellectual people. It's weird, I don't necessarily find myself attracted to some of these people physically, at least initially...but if I really get to know and love someone, none of the physical aspects (looks or whatever) really matter anymore.

So yeah, once I learned that, dating kind of turned into looking at personality instead of looks.

Still, it's very hard to believe that someone could love me with the same metrics I use...I mean, I'm a nice, caring person, give wholly of myself, I'm not shallow, I don't care about penis size, etc, etc...

Instead, something in my head dredges up the bad memories of guys belittling me and trying to tell me that I'm not OK...so I find myself thinking that my current BF would secretly like me more if I were more endowed.

I'm pretty sure this isn't really the case but I can't for the life of me find a way to actually believe and own it!

[Athena]

Anyway, I've had better luck with earthy, intellectual people. It's weird, I don't necessarily find myself attracted to some of these people physically, at least initially...but if I really get to know and love someone, none of the physical aspects (looks or whatever) really matter anymore.

So yeah, once I learned that, dating kind of turned into looking at personality instead of looks.

Still, it's very hard to believe that someone could love me with the same metrics I use...I mean, I'm a nice, caring person, give wholly of myself, I'm not shallow, I don't care about penis size, etc, etc...

Instead, something in my head dredges up the bad memories of guys belittling me and trying to tell me that I'm not OK...so I find myself thinking that my current BF would secretly like me more if I were more endowed.

I'm pretty sure this isn't really the case but I can't for the life of me find a way to actually believe and own it!

Right, so don't judge a book by its cover. Yes, I'd agree with that one. I never felt particularly pretty and never got asked to dance at dance clubs, or I was the last one chosen. I've since managed to feel better about my looks if I can stand up tall, have a genuine smile, forget my troubles, say hello and have a sparkle in my eye - kind of the idea of "let them see the person behind the physical shell", and your looks will improve. So you are now seeing "real people" and finding them attractive.

Re: "feeling your BF would like you more if your were more endowed", it is very hard to tell your thinking brain what to feel. I think it comes down to getting your feelings validated. Perhaps there would be a way to prompt your BF to say "I like your penis just the way it is" (I'm sure you have another name for it in a romantic setting, but you get my drift.) My therapist has a way of saying what I want to hear, without me asking his opinion. Something I say must "prompt" him to respond that way. However it is in the context of me expressing how I feel about things. Maybe you could tell your BF how you feel about your size, then just be quiet and see what he says. If he says what you want to hear, it will probably get through to your emotional level and override your "thinking" brain.

[Nessie]

Right, so don't judge a book by its cover. Yes, I'd agree with that one. I never felt particularly pretty and never got asked to dance at dance clubs, or I was the last one chosen. I've since managed to feel better about my looks if I can stand up tall, have a genuine smile, forget my troubles, say hello and have a sparkle in my eye - kind of the idea of "let them see the person behind the physical shell", and your looks will improve.

YES! Exactly, there will always be people who can see you for what a beautiful person you are, flaws and all. What a great feeling when it happens, I guess we just have to be open to letting it happen instead of fighting it. (well, maybe you don't fight it but I was for a while).

I think it comes down to getting your feelings validated. Perhaps there would be a way to prompt your BF to say "I like your penis just the way it is"

He is well aware of the issue and has been extremely supportive, and indeed, does say some of these kinds of things. Something in my head just doesn't believe it, though, even though I'm pretty sure he's 100% fine with things.

Come to think of it, I've never been good with compliments of any kind...I just hang my head and let it bounce off like I'm Teflon...instead of owning the praise....

hmmm...

[Athena]

I used to do the same. Now I find "Thank you" works really well, and actually helps me believe the words. Although for some things, I'll admit I need to hear them over and over again for them to sink in.

[flander]

I start getting suspicious when I hear too many complements directed towards myself.

[IrmaJean]

Why suspicious, flander?

I have had trouble with receiving compliments too, but I'm getting a little better with this. I often have a conflicting response of both loving and hating it at the same time. The compliments are often hard for me to believe and I feel I don't want to disappoint anyone when they learn the real truth about me. But I try to challenge that now by giving the belief a chance or at least considering in its possibility. I try "soaking it up", though have not always had success with this. Saying "Thank you" would be an excellent response.

Another thing to consider is that the person who gives you a compliment may also take some pleasure in saying something nice. If this is brushed off, the other person could end up feeling pushed away or rejected. When you give, you also receive. Just some food for thought...

[flander]

While many are genuine, compliments often precede an attempt to con me into doing something for that person.

[Nessie]

Why suspicious, flander?

I have had trouble with receiving compliments too, but I'm getting a little better with this. I often have a conflicting response of both loving and hating it at the same time.

I think I sometimes feel suspicious like Flander mentions though sounds like our reasons might be different. Mostly I might tend to think that someone is just saying it not because they believe it but because they think it's what I need to hear.

Anyway, it's called self-esteem for a good reason I think...otherwise, we'd call it something else if people could give it to you with kind words. So I guess I think that hearing compliments or whatever doesn't really do much for me because I have a serious problem with my own self view.

It's so difficult to tease out what the real problems are here for me. Is it my size? Is it generally just about self-esteem? Is it fear of losing control (and falling in love), which is why I'm feeling much worse as my relationship progresses? Is it about being sexually abused as a child? I'm unhappy with my job, is that pushing me over the edge? It's winter and there's less light now...seasonal affective disorder? Some combination of the above? Something else entirely?

I guess I just have to survive until I can see my therapist at the end of the month. Hopefully they can help figure this all out.

[Athena]

While many are genuine, compliments often precede an attempt to con me into doing something for that person.

You have a very valid point Flander. When it comes to your ex, I wouldn't believe a word that comes out of her mouth. Same goes for anybody who's already shown they are mean and manipulative. For the rest, try believing them, until they prove themselves unworthy of your trust. (I'm kind of talking to myself here, too;))

[flander]

The ex is not so bad anymore. It's the "friend" that goes away for a while and then out of the blue starts sending me text messages to my phone. Then after I respond, or meet up somewhere, the "<insert compliments here>... my life sucks...I'm going to get kicked out of my apt/car repo'ed/whatever...can I borrow some money?" line comes up. But I'm on to her game and the answer is "Sorry. Don't have any to lend". Then she goes away and bothers someone else.

[Athena]

I have a old neighbour "friend" like that. Only hear from her when she needs something, usually money. Her daughter was my daughter's best friend. I tried to get our kids together but she's stood my daughter up three times. OK, fine, stand me up because I might possibly ask when you may be able to pay the loan back, but don't stand up my daughter! Now you're just being cruel.

Now I've gone from thinking she's a kind, sympathetic woman to a lazy manipulative woman who's not trying all that hard to get a job and is just waiting for her deadbeat ex to get a proper job so she can get support from him. I used to think "the poor woman", because her ex used to be the head of derivatives at a large mutual fund company here in Canada, making over $200k/year until he decided to just stop working and sit around at home. I predicted their marriage would fail. I kept asking the neighbours, "So I bet they're at home saying to each other - 'You get a job', 'no YOU get a job'" Well, at least there is some justice in that they truly deserved each other!