mood stabilizers effects on creativity..

[joechip]

Hi,

Was wondering if there is any painters, artists, musicians etc here taking mood stabilizers like lithium / epilim? I take epilim 1000mg daily and its made a huge positive difference. Although i think it may have taken the edge of my spontaneity for drawing and the like, suppose it's because I'm less moody now. Just wondering if anyone else has experienced more or less creativity? Maybe a stupid question but no harm in asking.

[Guest ASchwartz]

Hi Joe,

Welcome to our community. Sorry no one has responded as yet.

As a psychotherapist who has worked with creative people, I can tell you, from that experience, that mood stabilizers and or anti depressants, helped free their creative energies so that their work increased. I will add that they were also in psychotherapy, in this case, with me. Its not just medicine, its the therapy that is also important. Now, I can't speak for everyone and that is why I agree with you about asking others. So, does anyone else have direct experience with this?

Also, Joe, can you tell us more about yourself?

Allan

[Luna-]

Hi Joe

I am an artist and I am bipolar. This is a subject close to my heart.

I think it's an individual thing how different MSs affect your creativity and also depends on the dose. Lithium totally suppressed my creativity. It suppressed my cognitive ability too and I had other bad side-effects at the therapeutic blood level. I lasted 3 months only. But some artists do fine on lithium.

I'm currently on Lamictin and Geodon (Geodon is an anti-psychotic but it has mood-stabilising properties) and have not found my creativity diminished or changed. I have also been on Epilim - hard to tell how that affected my creativity since I was put on it in a mania and then crashed into a very uncreative depression.

But I think there is another factor here. I know that I am MUCH more creative in mania (even if some ideas are a bit off the wall!). The MSs supress the mania - which makes me less creative, but only because my mood is stable. It's not the drug causing less creativity, it's that the mood state determines it. So, take away the mania and you take away some creativity. It's the trade-off of bipolar treatment: that I lose some of the mania for the sake of not having depression. On the plus side, I finish the art I start when I'm stable, which is not the case in mania. And I can be more steadily creative, rather than only in short bursts followed by depression.

I miss the mania now I am stable. I miss the ideas, colours, meanings, connections that come at great speed in a continuous flow. Mania is very seductive that way. During mania I pour my energy into art and am much more prolific, even though I don't finish anything. But when I think about it, I have NO creativity in a depression and I was depressed more often than manic. So overall, I am more creative when stable. I have just had to get used to the way creativity comes to me now, not in that abundant stream, but more calmly.

I also think some MSs can blunt motivation, while might mean we are less inclined to make art. (Maybe that is the spontaneity you are talking about?) That was certainly also the case with me on lithium. My daughter's boyfriend who is super-smart and also bipolar says he is fine on 800mg of Epilim, but at 1000mg he feels his intelligence and creativity are affected. That may also be more due to less motivation than any dampening effect Epilim may be having on the creativity itself. Who knows?

I don't know if any of this rings true for you. It's a hot topic, anyway. Anyone else want to add their own experience?

[hatemeds]

Yip I'm with Luna on this one - me and mania are hellsa creative. It's definitely (for me anyway) mood dependent. I fancy myself a Van Gogh when manic:D - pity no one else does.

It is also why I go non-complaint so often - ie I dont take my meds and I figure it's the reason many dont but I am not recommending that at all - been too far down the depression hell hole for that!

****

[joechip]

Hi,

@ASchawartz, I'm into the visual arts, films and the like. i'm 33 from ireland, have BP1. Started getting my first real hypomanic bouts when i was 23. (but even as a teen i remember my friend saying "your always either up or down") Later when i was about 28 i went from hypomanic bouts to one full blown manic bout with hallucinations etc and was hospitalized. But when i got out i quickly became hypomanic again and didn't realize there was anything wrong. It was only lately in 2009 when i was hospitalized again from a bad manic attack that i realized that i really did have bipolar disorder.

I use to be really ambitious, but i think to be fair a lot of that may have had to do with being BP, since i've been on the Emplilim i have found a lot of stability, and dare i say i am becoming content. But also a lot this comes with getting wiser of course, maybe down to the stability Empilim allows. Now i no longer want to be a professional anything, i'm happy enough if i can potter about doing creative stuff with out having the stress and all the bullshit of trying to make a career out of it.

@Luna "I know that I am MUCH more creative in mania (even if some ideas are a bit off the wall!). The MSs supress the mania - which makes me less creative, but only because my mood is stable. It's not the drug causing less creativity, it's that the mood state determines it. So, take away the mania and you take away some creativity. It's the trade-off of bipolar treatment: that I lose some of the mania for the sake of not having depression." Yeah thats what i've been thinking..

"I miss the mania now I am stable. I miss the ideas, colours, meanings, connections that come at great speed in a continuous flow. Mania is very seductive that way. During mania I pour my energy into art and am much more prolific, even though I don't finish anything. But when I think about it, I have NO creativity in a depression and I was depressed more often than manic. So overall, I am more creative when stable. I have just had to get used to the way creativity comes to me now, not in that abundant stream, but more calmly." -This is true also, although when i was drawing/colouring (smaller pieces) on mania the drawings would nearly draw them selves, this fascinates me sometimes. Although i wouldn't say all of them were good.

"I also think some MSs can blunt motivation, while might mean we are less inclined to make art. (Maybe that is the spontaneity you are talking about?) -Yes could be. But i cant imagine the docs lowering my dose. But as you've been saying about the MS's and i agree they offer you more stablity to get on with things, so i guess its a trade off. I'm so glad im more stable now.

For me now i think, my life is less dramatic and since most of my art has been semi-biographical i've less to express. For example when i was feeling down and alone, i would go to pubs and drink a lot, (of course then the drink makes you elated) so quickly i started drawing the inside of every pub i visited and accumulated a cool series of drawings, but i got bored of drinking and now no longer drink, so i no longer do those type of sketches.

When i was manic i might try anything say abstract, or more diary stuff like drawing things around me. But i'm no longer get really manic either.

I think next im gonna give cubism a go and some photography perhaps. Sorry for the long message but its great to talk to others with similar interests who've experienced the same kinda thing with out judging you. Thanks a lot for the replys. Joe

[joechip]

Hi luna,

i'm still trying to get drawing again, its going slow. The passion/motivation isn't what it use to be right now. i donno what to say. I suppose when i was less stable and more elated at times, i had more energy and enthusiasm to start drawing, get involved in it and finish etc.

You mentioned your friend felt better off on 800mg of epilim, do you know if he had much hassle getting his meds dose reduced? If his intelligence and creativity improved did he find that this resulted in an increase of mood swings?? I might try and ask my doc when i next visit. I think 800mg would still be a safe/not too dangerously low dose. Now i don't ever want to a have an awful manic experience again. But I need to be able to continue making art and have some edge, don't ya know what i mean? :cool:

As you said your self, plenty of artists are taking Litium (and other MS's i presume) and are doing fine.

Tell us about your work, and process, what materials do you work with? You still have a spark and inspiration now even on MS's?

Thanks Joe

[Luna-]

i'm still trying to get drawing again, its going slow. The passion/motivation isn't what it use to be right now. i donno what to say. I suppose when i was less stable and more elated at times, i had more energy and enthusiasm to start drawing, get involved in it and finish etc.

Same here. Definitely.

You mentioned your friend felt better off on 800mg of epilim, do you know if he had much hassle getting his meds dose reduced? If his intelligence and creativity improved did he find that this resulted in an increase of mood swings?? ...

... But I need to be able to continue making art and have some edge, don't ya know what i mean?

I absolutely know what you mean! My daughter's boyfriend's pdoc wanted him to take 900mg but he felt it dulled him. I don't know how he got it reduced. My daughter says he has more mood swings if he takes less Epilim but he prefers that to being dulled. Surprising that he finds such a difference between 800mg and 900mg, isn't it? I think it's worth a discussion with your pdoc but do you really want the depressions? Are your manias happy or irritable? I stick with the MSs because my depressions are so brutal. I have no problems with manias at all (although I tend to make a spectacle of myself which is embarrassing afterwards)! Who knows you may find some edge at a very slightly lower dose, maybe 900mg? Chat to your doc.

Tell us about your work, and process, what materials do you work with? You still have a spark and inspiration now even on MS's?

I am shy to talk about this. I work mostly in textiles. Some of it is quilted to hold it together but I also add metal, paper, paint etc. You can look at my profile, I have posted pics there in an album.

On the MSs: I don't create with the verve I used to. I don't get that sparkling inspiration and the up-all-night frenzied creating any more. I used to depend on those times to drive the art. It sounds like you do too? Like you say, the passion and motivation is gone. I used to pour every bit of energy into creating when manic - maybe that's how I stayed out of trouble and didn't get diagnosed till 47. I still get ideas, it just takes more deliberate effort to see them through and I have had to change how I work, more steadily and deliberately and with less excitement. Do you have the same? I have to work at the drive. But I definitely still have the urge to create, I'm not dulled. I sometimes think of ditching the MSs but then I remember the depressions and how I can't lift a finger then. I can tell you what I made in mania though, it has a different quality, it's wackier and wilder. Do you notice this in your work? But I've done work I am happy with while stable, too.

One day I will go rogue ... and possibly/probably regret it - certainly I will get a stern lecture from my pdoc. But what are wings for, if not for flying ...???

[joechip]

hey luna,

your work is brilliant, very trippy which i like, i love your avatar pieace, i done the odd drawing with similar ideas, although yours is way better, very colourful and interesting looking....trippy:cool:

I think it's worth a discussion with your pdoc but do you really want the depressions? Are your manias happy or irritable?

I would'nt get manic that often i think,if i drank i would become a little elated and erratic, i no longer drink. I would say i got more depressions definately.And when i was stable I think i was more irritable, like i would get agitated over little things, which can make me upset and cause anxiety.

it just takes more deliberate effort to see them through and I have had to change how I work, more steadily and deliberately and with less excitement. Do you have the same?

Yes luna, i think that may be it, you probably have to apply yourself way more and i guess im a bit lazy and pesimistic.

I can tell you what I made in mania though, it has a different quality, it's wackier and wilder. Do you notice this in your work?

Yes it has to be dosen't it, although i have not done any drawing work since ive been on MS's. I did one landsacpe the other day and it was okay, medocre maybe, i could be just out of practice. but when your manic (or even jus a little elated), your so much more pocsessed with energy, ideas and passion and this obviously come across in the work.

Thanks for sharing your thoughts and opinions with me, i appreciate it. Joe

[Luna-]

... i have not done any drawing work since ive been on MS's. I did one landsacpe the other day and it was okay, medocre maybe, i could be just out of practice. but when your manic (or even jus a little elated), your so much more pocsessed with energy, ideas and passion and this obviously come across in the work.

You've really got me thinking about this now. I am busy with 4 new pieces atm, without any excitement. Because I don't feel excited about them, I feel like they are mediocre, but I can't actually tell. I've previously judged pieces by how brilliant they seemed in mania and how enthusiastic I felt about them. These days none feel brilliant, and while I am working steadily, I've lost how to tell if what I am doing is any good.

[joechip]

You've really got me thinking about this now. I am busy with 4 new pieces atm, without any excitement. Because I don't feel excited about them, I feel like they are mediocre, but I can't actually tell. I've previously judged pieces by how brilliant they seemed in mania and how enthusiastic I felt about them. These days none feel brilliant, and while I am working steadily, I've lost how to tell if what I am doing is any good.

Hi, Luna, (how long have you been on the right MS's.) Well your natural talent is there, but the mania gets you started/motivated/thinking/experimenting, when filled with creative energy one is way more faster, fluid, like your plugged into something, not normally available. We could probably muse over how mania effects creativity for ages, there is something wonderful about it, but its not necessarily a ticket to great work, it probably just enhances your natural ability ten fold?? Perhaps the key words/parts of mania is creative motivation,energy,enthusiasm and elevated cognition.

(On being questioned about his drinking problems/habits and the possibility of of him quitting drink (in an interview) I heard this Irish poet reply "change the man and you change the artist")

But maybe we can regain some of those manic features by finding the right concept to work with that triggers/inspires some of this again. If you want you could show me some of the work your doubting, although i think your usually your own best critic a lot of time, although its always good to have a fresh pair of eyes to check it out and be honest.

As for me its early days, as I've only been on MS's for a a little over year and have got my act together, i.e. coping better with BP. Although you get a lot of self-esteem from creating work, or feeling like some kind of artist. And then if you and stand back and think i no longer really do art, now i just muse over things that never happen. It wont be long before you start to loose a lot of self esteem because your not doing anything. I do however want to make work and get it out there in some form. (But i don't stress about being taking seriously or having a career)

Right now i've had ideas for new methods/styles to work with, but i'm still waiting for something to motivate me in order to get going. I know i may be a little lazy but art is all about being natural for me i.e. it shouldn't feel like a chore, as it never has in the past. I say this just to explain my own current situation.

I'm a little surprised given the well documented link between creativity and BP that there are no other creative minds here taking MS's with an opinion on this...

[joechip]

Now i'm just throwing a few thoughts out here, but if i think about it, as an adult i think i probably did all my musing about my art, and did most of my art work (drawing etc) when i was hypomanic, manic,...drunk/depressed/elated....stoned/elated...or elated (but self motivated). Now that I'm stable, im regularly none of these things, maybe elated now and then. But nowadays i find when i get elated i find it so easy just do hang out outside a bar drinking coffee smoking cigarettes musing, or goofing on the net, drinking coffee smoking. I do still feel creative most of the time though and i dont want to come across like I'm moaning about it, i am going to learn photoshop, since i enjoy sitting by the computer and i imagine digital art work to be sorta of stress free and quite non committal, its something you can goof around with and come back to and delete and undo and redo etc etc.

I think i pretty much like taking valporate, i dont feel drugged at all, i feel a little mellow, buts thats not a bad thing either, the benefits are great, its probably just a matter of taking the finger out of ones ass and getting going, like i said finding a concept that excites you, when your manic everything appears to excite you in a way.

[Luna-]

Now you've given me even more to think about! Will respond, it just has to wait for now.

PS. I have moved this discussion to the bipolar forum. Maybe a few more BPs will weigh in on this?

[Luna-]

This is a long ramble ...

(how long have you been on the right MS's.)

I have been on Lamictin for almost 3 years and on Geodon for almost 1 year. I hate Geodon, just dislike the idea of taking an anti-psychotic. But I am stable. I guess it is early days for me too, I was only diagnosed in 2008.

How long does it take you to do a drawing, on average? I ask because my process is very slow - painting or dyeing the fabric, sewing bits of fabric together, attaching stuff with hand stitching and so on. This is why I don't complete work in mania, too many ideas flow out and I can't stick to one thing but I try to capture the essence of the idea and then complete it later. I think if the process was faster, I would be able to capture the feeling better AND do more work.

(On being questioned about his drinking problems/habits and the possibility of of him quitting drink (in an interview) I heard this Irish poet reply "change the man and you change the artist")

Yes, sigh, this is probably true. I don't like to admit it.

The work I am currently doing is incomplete but I will look around for my camera when it's finished and maybe post some pics. Maybe. What did you mean by:

But maybe we can regain some of those manic features by finding the right concept to work with that triggers/inspires some of this again.

Although you get a lot of self-esteem from creating work, or feeling like some kind of artist. And then if you and stand back and think i no longer really do art, now i just muse over things that never happen. It wont be long before you start to loose a lot of self esteem because your not doing anything.

Yes. I find if I am not making something, I get disgruntled and feel aimless and that my life has no meaning. It's like an imperative, that I create.

My psychotherapist (well, I see him a few times a year only) is an artist, a painter. When I was put on MSs, I was concerned about losing the creativity but he said he didn't think I would.

I don't seem to get elated at all anymore. I miss it so much. I don't feel drugged either, but the enthusiasm is not really there. I plod on, because a fair amount of the process is just putting pieces together, so once it's designed there is a period of sewing to capture the idea. I have to push myself through this sometimes; the drive doesn't flow naturally.

I feel a bit sad thinking about the manic excitement and how I won't feel it again (that is, if I want to stay out of depression and be able to function and work). It's a loss.

[joechip]

Hi Luna,

How long does it take you to do a drawing, on average?

I use to do a series of drawings on relatively small pieces of paper when i was out and about so it would have to fit in my pocket. Sometimes i had a backpack and i would carry an a4 sketchbook inside. I do them pretty quickly from 5 - 15mins using a pen. I'm not into work that takes a lot of labour, although if its a nice day out or if I'm in nice surroundings i can spend more time at it and maybe add more detail.

What did you mean by:

Quote:

But maybe we can regain some of those manic features by finding the right concept to work with that triggers/inspires some of this again.

Well personally speaking i think i'm still easily excitable about things i like, (i've always been pretty chatty and inspired / interested in things, like i can enjoy a conversation about something lets say art or whatever, and that might get me thinking or give me new ideas, i think this is just part of my character and nothing do with me being bipolar) But anyway what i was sorta trying to say is maybe a lot of creative/talented BP's can still get excitable on MS's, once they find the right something/concept that inspires them? Then a lot of other stuff kicks in. (others might have a couple of classes of wine etc to loosing them selves up if it helps)

You could always try starting new work, ink on paper, collage, sculpture, water colours, something easy, that you can finish in one hour, or one day etc.

(On being questioned about his drinking problems/habits and the possibility of of him quitting drink (in an interview) I heard this Irish poet reply "change the man and you change the artist")

Yes, sigh, this is probably true. I don't like to admit it.

But do we change all that much? Personally i'm a lot healthier and have a good sleep pattern all that kind of thing, im more stable, but i'm still up and down often to a milder degree, melancholy then stable then elated because im happy that im stable, then i get melancholy at realizing im elated (because i realize a lot of stuff im thinking about is unrealistic while elated) take a nap maybe then back to stable and so on. Some days i'm good and confident etc etc etc and other days im thinking who am im kidding..then i'm good and confident again etc etc etc, then im thinking who am im kidding and so on..(but as i said i am way more stable, content and happy now in general) - Do you experience this kind of thing also?

I no longer drink and have been out a few times and have had a really good time and don't feel like i need to drink to be able to chat about things and enjoy myself. Maybe there's a lesson there to be learnt that i don't necessarily need to be wired to make good stuff either.

[Luna-]

I guess I am just not that excitable anymore. I don't know why not.

I think the problem may be that I am TOO stabilised right now - my moods are in a very narrow range. I am so used to having a widely varying range. I need this level of stability for now; I have just started a new job in something I am qualified in but never did after I finished my training (hospital ward nursing). I need to be really together as I am on a steep learning curve, but it's at the cost of a wider range. At some stage, once I am settled in at work and know what is going on(!), I will raise the topic with my pdoc of decreasing the MSs a little, enough to give me a slightly larger range. She won't like it but I shall try to be assertive.

I guess I am now contradicting what I said earlier about my creativity being unchanged on MSs. This discussion has really made me think hard about it. Previously (before Geodon) I was on a small dose of Seroquel and still had the wide® range without it being mania or depression. In those slight hypomanias and slight depressions, I do much more evocative, and in my eyes, better work. It sounds like you still have this range of feeling.

I bought the book "Drawing on the right side of the brain" as I would like to learn to draw and I've heard it can actually be taught, to some extent. Just haven't done much about it.

[joechip]

Good to here from ya luna, i thought for a bit i had said something that upset you. Would you say your taking the equivalent dose of MS's as me? I'm taking 1000mg valporate.

Making art can be autobiographical anyway. You have other priorities right now, you cant really be playing the nurse and playing the artist at the same time, that's probably not a good analogy. Its like if your time is taken up with looking after your kid and other day to day stuff, well that's the art your making then. That's an art in it self.

I'm not making anything right now, just chilling out, coffee and a cigarette, decorate the house a bit. I will get back into the swing of things and start making stuff when the time is right. Its like your life dictates when and what art you produce, hence the way you can look at art as being autobiographical.

(maybe a bit off topic of MS's but perhaps some truth there)

[joechip]

I was doing more research on the net just now about meds and creativity, i came across another board and they were talking about the same kinda thing, this is my conclusion as of now (and this is what i wrote there) http://www.healthboards.com/boards/showthread.php?t=38356

Hi, i'm bipolar and have only recently begun to take the right mood stablizer, i cope so much better now, i can still be moody but there pretty mild transient ones compared to before. I've been pondering a lot lately whether Ive lost my creativity, i still feel like a creative person but the urge to make art, draw etc seems to have gone. I'd say ive been on them a year and have done very little, i've been wanting to start collage work but i just sit around drinking coffee and smoking cigarettes listening to music.

I feel like i'd have to force myself if i want to do any art work. I've wondered if its lazyness or the MS's. Ive been trying to read up a lot lately on how meds effect creativity. Depression and mania can inspire you to make so much more, now im relatively stable and content i have little motivation and feel like i dont care in a way, before i drew and made things to express myself, or because i was manic or depressed and drunk and elated etc etc. Now i feel like if im gonna do something its for the sake of doing it or like if i want to make some kind of career out of art, which doesn't feel like true honest expression or in other words its not a personal enough reason to fuel my creativity. So my conclusion is yes for me the meds can change your creativity, but the benefits of being stable feel a lot better for me now.

[Luna-]

I have no idea what is equivalent to valproate 1000mg. What my pdoc told me is that Lamictin and Geodon are both weak mood stabilisers, which is why I need two, whereas valproate and lithium are strong in themselves and only need one.

Almost all of my art is autobiographical. I have sometimes wondered if I am a bit too self-referential. Sometimes I may make a social comment on something, or do something humorous, but mostly they are about me and especially my moods. At the moment I am working on a Viking piece with a sentence I have translated into runes (I am danish). It says "I am alone in my strangeness". I am also researching Viking symbols to add to it. Maybe I am overly self-focused but I reckon it is an expression of me, so it needs to be something I know about.

I think art can't help being autobiographical actually. And that's a good thing or we'd just be making copies of the same things. You put your own stamp on each drawing and yes, it's record of what you've seen and how you felt about it. I am rambling now.

*Smile* I was writing this before I saw your post about the other board. What did people there say about it?

[Luna-]

Silly me, I just went and read the threads (I see there is more than one on this subject.)

[joechip]

Silly me, I just went and read the threads (I see there is more than one on this subject.)

im not quite sure what ya mean?

[Luna-]

I asked you what the other people on that board were saying about this topic. Then I realised you had put the link to the thread in your post, so I went and read the thread. Then at the bottom of the thread (current or recent threads, I'm not sure) I found that the topic had come up in two other threads on that board, so I went and read them too.

So asking you what was being said was redundant as I went and read them directly. Sorry, I was rather cryptic!

[joechip]

this tread has had 713 views and 2 opinions.

[Luna-]

Wow. Well, at least we're entertaining people. Quite an audience!

Psssst! Say something.

Do you ever have a stage in drawing when you don't like what you've done? I ask because I almost always do. I've reached that stage with what I am currently busy with - it's hanging on my design wall but I don't like it and don't know where it's going. What I usually do is put it away until inspiration comes at some later stage, and start something new in the meantime. But it almost always happens. I've spent all this time on something I think looks awful. Then I lose motivation on top of what I already don't have atm.

[joechip]

I'm wondering if i may be too contented from the valporate, I'm so at ease doing nothing, (drinking coffee, listening to music, smoking too much) That's what you do when your stoned no?..but i dont feel drugged. But maybe no way to know for sure... Not that i miss being so moody / easily agitated one little bit either. Have an appointment with my pdoc later this month. I think valporate only comes in 300mg tabs and 1000mg sachets. (I might try ask 3x300mg) I remember asking him to cut them down before and he said anything less then 1000mg would have no effect on me.

As i said i've only been on them for over a year, and really enjoy this new lease of life i have. But if one was too contented maybe you wouldn't know? Maybe if i was a little moodier maybe i'd be motivated, i may not get much finished/produced but at least i might be attempting to do something with my time, instead of sitting around content doing very little.

I was mildly BP when i when to art school, while there it got worse proper BP2, afterwards i became BP1, i started doing drawing after i finished art school because it was the cheapest way to do stuff and it was all mainly fueled by BP energy.

Now i dont miss living that life and my art was only a hobby that i enjoyed, not saying i didn't have dreams of being successful then, but becoming stable helps put things in perspective. I presume my problem must me procrastination/ lazyness / lack of passion / interest. Sorry for the rambling, its different for every one when it comes to MS's. Over time i should find a new form of motivation etc.

Do you ever have a stage in drawing when you don't like what you've done?

Of course i do Luna, often, that's what can be so off putting when you start drawing when your stable. I wasn't particularly good at drawing at best of times, my drawings were more like diaries.

[joechip]

creativity is a symptom of bipolar disorder, relieve the bipolar disorder and you relieve the creativity.