What Do I Do? (!) Trigger Warning (!)

[soregretful]

I have just recently started to feel lonely. I have all these people still and I still feel lonely.

It isn't like I don't try to get close with my girlfriend, I want to, but I just don't feel worthy. The boys came up for my birthday today. They, of course, were very affectionate, loving, etc. They sat in my lap for a quick birthday picture. No real arousal issues.

It was so sweet because not only did they love on me (which I allowed them to do, sorry....I need love more now than ever), but they were like, we miss you and we can't wait till summer because you can come over a lot more.

They want me just as much as I want them. At the same time, I think they are looking to me to fulfill something too, just an adult who wants to know them and play with them outside of just going to soccer games. That is really the relationship they have. They ask their parents to play a game with them and get turned down all the time. I am more than willing to play with them. They don't really have friends in their neighborhood and they like to just play once in a while. If I can play with them, sure I will do it. I love to play! Kids need interaction like this with adults. Their parents are great people, but they never play with them. They never let loose and just have a good time with them. Putting together a puzzle with them is like a huge treat because no one ever does that with them. So, while you may think I am seeking something out, I will be the first one to tell you they are trying to get something out of me too....some attention in that regard.

[Musicman]

Happy birthday SR. I hope seeing the boys brought at least a little happiness to your day. I think the fact that you didn't suffer from any real arousal problems is even more reason to believe that you needn't distance yourself. As I said in my previous post, love is both very selfish and unselfish at the same time. The boys were very happy to be close with you today. I assume that you enjoyed seeing them. The fact that you called this closeness "sweet" seems to imply it. You are looking for love, but are not receiving it without giving it.

While I have always been loved by my parents, I suffered from a lack of interaction with them growing up. I partly blame this on my own problems. I think it's great that you can assure this won't happen to the boys.

I've already stated this, and I know several people here disagree with me, but I don't see any reason for you to distance yourself from the boys. Doing so would likely hurt them and yourself.

[soregretful]

Just curious guys,

Did anyone look at the websites I saw? I posted them, and they are just sitting around on the internet, and I promise the ones I told you about make me feel the way I do...those are the worst of what I saw. I hate to say it again, because geez, I am not proud at all, but Chippendiddys on YouTube is one that I am so embarassed to even admit that I watched. It is innocent enough, but can be taken in the wrong way I guess....I mean that is the one that is haunting me just about the most!!!

If anyone did look at them, could you honestly let me know what you think? I am not proud to even know these sights! If all that matters is what I think, then I am so screwed!

[IrmaJean]

SR, I haven't looked at the sites. In truth, I've never had any concern about the sites.

My concern for you has been in how you feel about yourself. I know at times I've had some intrusive thoughts and they can be challenging to shut down. Maybe for the time being you could distract yourself with thinking about something that doesn't bring up any painful feelings.

Did you have any birthday cake today?

[danni]

interesting that you added that last line

Seriously though. I don't think it does matter what I think or anyone really. It matters how the pictures affect you and how they make you feel. Which is what you need to explore in therapy in my opinion.

I guess I would equate it in a way to taking art history classes in college. Did teaching students have to do that or just socal work students One of the things we did was look at lots and lots of art and talk about reactions, emotions etc...and how each piece affected us. We ALL had individual reactions. Some were similar some very different. But in the end, our life experiences, our self actualization, and the context we placed each piece of art in shaped how it affected us.

None of us here is you and have those variables to shape how we each would see the sites you are talking about.

So..... although I don't think my opinion of those sites really matter, I think it does matter that they don't change my opinion of you. You have value, you have gifts, you have a lot to give the world and you deserve to be happy.

[soregretful]

Birthday tomorrow.....definitely the most unhappy one ever. I can't understand why people don't think I am horrible because I do....geez

[Musicman]

SR, I think I can speak for all members here when I say that we believe you when you say you never viewed any pornography. But ultimately, danni is right. We know that these pictures had a negative affect on you. Are you bothered by the mere fact that the pictures exist, or the fact that you may have used them inappropriately?

SR, I know you're unhappy. I know how you feel because I too am very unhappy. Please, try and enjoy your birthday tomorrow. Even if for just five minutes you only allow yourself to have pleasant thoughts, you have been successful. Are you planning on seeing your girlfriend or the boys tomorrow?

IrmaJean, I couldn't have said it any better myself . Also, I want to clarify that my last message mentioning you was not meant to "put you down." Rather, I was explaining our difference in philosophies. I'm convinced that I was correct, but that doesn't make it so, nor does that make you any less correct. Usually (your last post included,) I believe that you suggest the right approach. I even once told SR this in a private message.

[IrmaJean]

MM, I am very impressed with your maturity and intelligence. You write eloquently, you're respectful, you express yourself well, and you're calming. Very positive energy and valuable input. Thank you.

SR, you are a valuable person, but I hear that you aren't feeling that way right now. You'll get there. I have faith. Try believing in yourself.

How can you know it will be the worst birthday ever when the day hasn't even begun?

Tomorrow has potential. It always does.

[soregretful]

MM,

Even just having looked at this stuff is enought to drive me mad. Who knows if it was used? I guess it must have been if I am having arousal issues with the boys, though I really didn't today...I don't know.

I am planning to see both groups of people tomorrow, but I feel like I deserve neither. I mean, just thinking I looked at pictures is bad enough, but to think I may have used them. I am going to wake up every day for the rest of my life thinking about this and it sucks. I can't let go of any of this. I can't forgive myself...it sucks! sucks! sucks!!! The fact that this arose when I felt like I am losing the boys makes this so much worse. The fact I emotionally committed to my girlfriend before this happened makes it downright ugly.

This sucks because for 9 years I gave every ounce of my being to teaching first graders and now all I want to do is die because I looked at kids like something other than the cool little people they are. I doubt I can have any. I doubt I can love myself anymore. And all this was just for looking! I will have speedo kids swimming around in my head forever. What did I do to myself? This is horrible!

[Chisholm]

Musicman: We cannot compare these boys to Chisholm. Chisholm was repeatedly molested by someone who he/she thought loved him/her. Chisholm went back time and time again for the sake of feeling close to someone. Now, Chisholm feels shame. I can imagine no reason for the boys to feel shame. They are wanting love and affection and are receiving it from a loving adult. I fail to see why offering the boys love is irresponsible. SR has become very close with this family. He seems to have taken on a role of "honorary father." He didn't ask for this, but the family did. I see this as a beautiful thing. Others may not.

I was actually hoping that my experience would underscore the fact that these things are indeed a well recognized occurrence and sadly far more prevalent than any of us would like to admit (the stats speak for themselves). In other words whilst one couldn’t make a direct comparision, we could certainly see the common ground in the wisdom of safe boundaries.

The fact is that none of us (incl SR) can know what the boys are truly feeling. The fact is that just like any other child (including myself) they enjoy the attention and may well be oblivious to any feelings of discomfort and inappropriateness. Strangely I was under no illusion (as Musicman suggests) that my rapist loved me and I felt very frightened and bewildered but yes I still went back because I craved any form of physical attention and I KNEW NO BETTER. I had never had the benefit of a truly loving parent who taught me that my body was my own and that I had the right to say NO. I truly believe now as an adult who has her own children, that one of the most loving gifts that we can give our children is to teach them healthy boundaries and perhaps I speak only for myself here – it would be interesting to get perspectives from other parents on this forum – when I say that I would NOT be happy for my children to be sleeping in a bed with other grown men no matter how close they are to them? (On a slightly different note, I think that many people on this forum are no doubt aware that the highest incidences of CSA are committed by people that we know well or are close to – the “stranger danger” is one of the many myths of CSA).

Healthy boundaries aside, and far more importantly in this scenario, is that SR’s inner voice IS troubling him, he would not be on this forum if that were not the case. He has by his own admission felt aroused around the boys and I therefore think that without catastrophising it into anything more sinister (I am sure that SR poses no threat whatsoever but this is not the point), he should respect himself and the boys by setting down some healthy boundaries. In all probability these boys are reaching the developmental age where they will not miss this affection as much as they would have when they were so young anyway.

SR I really think that it is so courageous of you facing up to these concerns as you are but I doubt you are going to find anyone who will join you in decrying or judging you as you seem so intent on doing (as I said in my previous posts, even loving parents have been known to feel sexually aroused by their own children – the difference comes in how they deal with it, ie by laying down healthy boundaries and channeling these urges elsewhere). You seem to be such a gentle and loving person – isn’t it time to apply some of this gentleness to yourself? I hope that your therapy goes well today and that it will guide you to a more peaceful space.

Take care SR.

XX

[IrmaJean]

I agree that healthy boundaries are very important in any relationship. SR (and for any of us really), I think the key is listening to your feelings of discomfort. I believe it's true that children (or any person who is vulnerable) may be unaware of a breach in boundaries. Please know that I'm speaking in general terms and not referencing anything specific about you, SR. When a person is vulnerable in a relationship and the other is in a position of power over him/her, it is vital for that person to protect the vulnerable one and hold the boundaries in place.

Another thing to consider is the lesson the children could learn in all of this. They can learn to not only respect their own boundaries, but to respect others as well. I think it's perfectly okay to tell them you are uncomfortable with any kind of behavior that makes you uncomfortable. I don't think of this as necessarily creating distance, though it may redefine things some. One great thing about teaching children is that they also learn by observing how you treat yourself. When you value yourself and take care of yourself, they learn to do this for themselves too. So perhaps later in life, if someone were to cross their boundaries they will have learned the lesson and would then be able tell that person they are uncomfortable. Self-care is so vital for all of us.

...don't people love because they want to be loved in return?

MM, I wanted to discuss this some. Not for the purpose of saying one or the other of us is right or wrong, but to give another viewpoint. I think we all have our own thoughts on love. An interesting subject. I believe love to be about self-connection. When we are feeling love for another, we're in complete connection with ourselves. This brings good feelings. When we feel tender affection for another, we are connected with our tender, affectionate self. The other person has shown us the way to our own light and we feel that from within. When I feel love for another, I feel my own inner joy and gifts. I feel caring, giving, gentle and as I feel this, I give this back to myself, thus the good feelings. This is internal and comes from our own self. So I think when you are feeling your own love internally as you love another, you receive love too. You give it to yourself too. When you become truly aware and connected with your own loving self, you don't rely/need as much for others to fill the void. Loving and being loved is part of any reciprocal relationship, but it's paradoxical too. When you receive, you are also giving. When you are giving, you are also receiving. Of course it feels wonderful to be loved by another, but self-love is something that you keep and have with you always. The gifts are with us. Sr, what are your gifts?

[soregretful]

I was actually hoping that my experience would underscore the fact that these things are indeed a well recognized occurrence and sadly far more prevalent than any of us would like to admit (the stats speak for themselves). In other words whilst one couldn’t make a direct comparision, we could certainly see the common ground in the wisdom of safe boundaries.

The fact is that none of us (incl SR) can know what the boys are truly feeling. The fact is that just like any other child (including myself) they enjoy the attention and may well be oblivious to any feelings of discomfort and inappropriateness. Strangely I was under no illusion (as Musicman suggests) that my rapist loved me and I felt very frightened and bewildered but yes I still went back because I craved any form of physical attention and I KNEW NO BETTER. I had never had the benefit of a truly loving parent who taught me that my body was my own and that I had the right to say NO. I truly believe now as an adult who has her own children, that one of the most loving gifts that we can give our children is to teach them healthy boundaries and perhaps I speak only for myself here – it would be interesting to get perspectives from other parents on this forum – when I say that I would NOT be happy for my children to be sleeping in a bed with other grown men no matter how close they are to them? (On a slightly different note, I think that many people on this forum are no doubt aware that the highest incidences of CSA are committed by people that we know well or are close to – the “stranger danger” is one of the many myths of CSA).

Healthy boundaries aside, and far more importantly in this scenario, is that SR’s inner voice IS troubling him, he would not be on this forum if that were not the case. He has by his own admission felt aroused around the boys and I therefore think that without catastrophising it into anything more sinister (I am sure that SR poses no threat whatsoever but this is not the point), he should respect himself and the boys by setting down some healthy boundaries. In all probability these boys are reaching the developmental age where they will not miss this affection as much as they would have when they were so young anyway.

SR I really think that it is so courageous of you facing up to these concerns as you are but I doubt you are going to find anyone who will join you in decrying or judging you as you seem so intent on doing (as I said in my previous posts, even loving parents have been known to feel sexually aroused by their own children – the difference comes in how they deal with it, ie by laying down healthy boundaries and channeling these urges elsewhere). You seem to be such a gentle and loving person – isn’t it time to apply some of this gentleness to yourself? I hope that your therapy goes well today and that it will guide you to a more peaceful space.

Take care SR.

XX

The fact that you even bring up CSA with this scenario hurts deeply Chisolm. I am never, nor will I ever think of abusing these children. It piles onto an already heavy conscience that I have, thinking that going on these trips and stuff was a bad idea in the first place. Like I said, maybe I could have said no or not slept in the same bed or whatever, but CSA? really? That blows my mind. It is like now I am rethinking everything I ever did. Needless to say, I don't even feel worthy of being alive as it is, but the mere fact that abuse was even hinted at puts me even lower. I can't even believe it was suggested. It is true that no one can know what the boys are feeling, but believe me, there is no child sexual abuse or any form of it even close here. I think that the fact that this was even brought up makes me sadder than ever, if that is possible. ALL I WAS EVER TRYING TO DO WAS BE A GOOD PERSON! I wasn't like hell yeah, let's bed down with that. OK, boundaries, great....but should I even have to question my relationship as mildly sexual. You may not be happy having your child sleep with any kind of grown man, OK. Is it OK for women then? Just curious. All I am saying is every time any of this ever occurred, the parents were in the next bed. Yeah, OK, I could have said no, but at the time, I thought I was helping by offering whatever I had, even if that was just being able to comfort in a way that I was asked. Please, not trying to be mean, do not ever bring up CSA in this thread, because it is so far from what is going on here that it's not even funny. The term doesn't even belong in the same paragraph, let alone thread.

[IrmaJean]

SR, take a deep breath. No one is suggesting anything about this. I'm pretty certain that it was a general comment (from my perspective) and did not reflect on you.

Remember how we spoke of catastrophising? As I've told you, I have done this too. What happens is your mind becomes focused on one thing to the exclusion of everything else. I've even done it myself here on the site. I think it is easier to project with the written word. Step back and try rereading later. No one is suggesting this, SR. We're in your corner and want to support you.

[soregretful]

Again, just when you say your good night prayers tonight, just thank God that you aren't me. That is probably the biggest blessing He could give you. Get down on your knees and literally say, thank you God for not letting me be SR. Tell God that you are so happy you aren't stupid enough to do what I did, to have gotten all of these different people that love you involved in it, and that you didn't cross any boundaries. Though I am college educated and perhaps one of the most dedicated teachers, just thank Jesus you aren't me. I am starting therapy today, but if I don't see any way past my guilt, then there is one solution that I can think of and it was the one I was trying to avoid by coming here. I mean, I am the one who put myself here, so I literally have to be the one who takes myself out.

[Sissagwaad]

Again, just when you say your good night prayers tonight, just thank God that you aren't me. That is probably the biggest blessing He could give you. Get down on your knees and literally say, thank you God for not letting me be SR. Tell God that you are so happy you aren't stupid enough to do what I did, to have gotten all of these different people that love you involved in it, and that you didn't cross any boundaries. Though I am college educated and perhaps one of the most dedicated teachers, just thank Jesus you aren't me. I am starting therapy today, but if I don't see any way past my guilt, then there is one solution that I can think of and it was the one I was trying to avoid by coming here. I mean, I am the one who put myself here, so I literally have to be the one who takes myself out.

God, I wish I could be SR.

Really, to be young as he, to be a teacher, to be free and unmarried, unshackled by the added complexities of dealing with another and their issues. To be physically healthy, to have young organs that respond well to my desires. Oh God I wish I could be SR. So young and full of such potential for good, with so many miles left to register on my odometer.

I thought you were preparing for teaching and seeing your new therapist today?

[Sissagwaad]

the key point in what you are telling/reviewing for yourself is this:

"but if I don't see any way past my guilt,"

Yes, recovery will result.

It will result in reaction to your decision to decide to open your eyes, to see..........

(If you continue in resisiting, in refusing, refusing to see,

are you not in effect 'blocking out God/Jesus, who said to the Blind, open your eyes and see?)

The first crucial step in 'seeing', is being willing and open to seeing

[hatemeds]

Okay now I am gettin the mutters. SR you say you have a college degree - well then do us all a favor and step back and reread what Chisholm said without going into overreaction mode again - Chisholm was in NO WAY suggestin that you were or are about to commit CSA or anything near the likes of.

She even emphasises that point here:

I therefore think that without catastrophising it into anything more sinister (I am sure that SR poses no threat whatsoever but this is not the point),

What I think Chisholm was trying to do was point out why it is so important to have those healthy boundaries in place in the first place - by relating her own experience (and I salute you for having the courage to do so Chisholm!). so dont please dont be tellin her that her experience is too freaky to be on this thread - thats just not good manners brother.

Lets not kid ourselves -these things happen every day and there is excellent reason why these boundaries should be in place GENERALLY SPEAKIN!!

SR if you are goin to keep on lookin for the negative and the bad in everything everyone says then how are you ever goin to help yourself? When we say positive things like Chisholm did:

You seem to be such a gentle and loving person – isn’t it time to apply some of this gentleness to yourself?

you totally ignore it but when we innocently mention our own experiences or anything that seems vaguely negative, you pounce on these things and use them to beat yourself over the head even more! Jeepers brother!

What we're all tryin to say is hell dont be beatin yourself up like this and look for the good in what you do as well - it's starin at you in the face brother - just reach out and grab it!

we are all here to help and support you - not in beatin yourself up - but in tryin to find a healthier way of lookin at things.

Therapy sounds positive brother - let us know how it goes!

****

[Guest SomethingOrOther]

Hi sr,

Well, I hear you didn't have the problem with arousal lately, so that's good. I hope you have a nice birthday. It's not necessary to question everything you ever did. I still wonder why you feel such a great loss, when you didn't actually lose contact, but for today focussing on your new therapist might be more relevant. Are you prepared for your therapy today? I hope you find the therapist is a good match.

Besides, I don't pray.

Take care,

S.

PS I can already tell that therapy isn't going to be the issue you'll chose to focus on, but consider for a moment that it is possible to make such a choice.

[Guest SomethingOrOther]

What I think Chisholm was trying to do was point out why it is so important to have those healthy boundaries in place in the first place - by relating her own experience (and I salute you for having the courage to do so Chisholm!). so dont please dont be tellin her that her experience is too freaky to be on this thread - thats just not good manners brother.

Nobody said anything like it. SR said that he isn't comfortable to have discussions about child abuse, which is perfectly sensible in my opinion.

[hatemeds]

SoRegretful said:

do not ever bring up CSA in this thread, because it is so far from what is going on here that it's not even funny. The term doesn't even belong in the same paragraph, let alone thread.

Okay sister have it your way - semantics rule. fact is Chisholm was not tryin to have any discussions about CSA, she was merely tryin to use her experience to highlight the importance of boundaries which is an excellent and important point.. And people should be free to mention their own personal experiences anywhere on this forum in trying to help others - thats what this place is all about is it not?

****

[IrmaJean]

And people should be free to mention their own personal experiences anywhere on this forum in trying to help others - thats what this place is all about is it not?

Well, yes, it is about this, true. But, this also means taking into account and respecting the experiences/feelings of others. There was no intent to upset anyone here, I am quite certain. Chisholm's input is very much valued here on the forum without question. I think, though, that since SR has made a personal request in his thread, that all of us (myself included) should honor this. Honoring SR's request in his thread is in no way meant to detract from Chisholm's experiences and the wisdom she has gained from them. We appreciate all of our members.

[hatemeds]

IrmaJean I get your point - I really do. You have been so awesome on this thread as has everybody else in bending over backwards in order to try and help SR.

Hell yes I'll honor you brother - I'll not mention the word in this thread again by opting out of this thread altogether. To me it makes perfect sense that CSA comes to mind in understanding boundaries for children (again it was not meant to refer to SR in anyway but to a deeper understanding of the implications of boundary infringements) - if the word is too personally loaded for you then I must bow out. Me I've got a big mouth and I cant be party to puttin blinkers on a dude who is gonna be traumatised by some issues that are just part of everyday life and pretty darn pertinent to what we are talkin about here.

Sorry folks - guess im not known for my sensitivity. Sorry SR - no hard feelins dude - hope you find a place of peace.

Cheers.

*****

[soregretful]

If someone wants to kill me I will pay them.

I am not trying to say that anyone was doing wrong, but the mere fact that CSA was even mentioned in my situation makes me feel horrible. I don't think anyone was trying to refer to me, but just when people say they don't think kids should sleep with adult males, etc., I feel horrible. I almost feel as bad about this as I do that I looked at the internet. Everyone is telling me I crossed boundaries. Shoot, I didn't even know that there was a boundary I was crossing. I am really sorry if I put anyone off. It just seemed like bringing the fact that most abusers are someone that the child knows was hinting at the fact that some people could have construed what I did as abuse. I don't know. I don't know much of anything anymore guys. My whole life seems like one big mistake now. I mean, I really thought I was doing the caring and loving thing, but it just seems like no matter what I did and for what reason, I screwed up. Did sleeping with the kids when their grandma died help them feel better and take some of the sting away? I think it did and I WAS asked, but apparently, I screwed up in doing this. Besides, I am not the only adult here...their parents asked me to do this, so apparently, there were other adults that think no boundaries were crossed. WHY IS ALL THE BLAME BEING PUT ON ME? It just makes me think that trying to help out in any way makes me a boundary crosser. I have this terrible feeling that I am not going to make it much farther. I have to stay strong for the kids until the end of the year, but I have so much guilt just building in me. I thought that I was a good person and was doing something to help some people that I love, but I guess in doing that I crossed some boundaries. I guess in trying to do what any parent would have done with their kids if they were sad, I crossed boundaries. I guess that in taking these kids to school because no one else could, I crossed boundaries. I really didn't think I was at the time, I was just trying to be a good friend.

Chisholm, I am not mad at you or anything, but it just sounds like I am being looked at as some kind of boundary crossing weirdo, and the fact that I did these loving acts in the first place was just too disgusting for some people on here. Therapy isn't going to save me, and now I have alienated hatemeds. All I seem to do anymore is just piss people off in trying to look for help. I never meant to make any conflicts. I am pretty sure that the boys are effectively out of my life anyways. I mean, I never for one second thought that a boundary was crossed at the time. I just did what I thought was best. If anyone thinks I crossed boundaries, then what this is suggesting to me is that what I did actually hurt the children. That breaks my heart. I really love them and never wanted to hurt them. By just trying to console, comfort, and love, I feel like people are telling me I actually hurt the kids, and this is something else that I feel like shit about. I can't take much more of this. This is the crappiest birthday, and hopefully the last one, of my life.

[IrmaJean]

No one has implied that you crossed any boundaries or harmed the children, SR. No one is blaming you for anything. I have no doubt that you have loving intent. None of us were there and could possibly understand the situation and dynamics involved in this. We're reading from a computer screen. This brings back the importance of therapy for you. And, yes, it can be very helpful. Did you go today?

[Chisholm]

SR I apologise if I was in anyway insensitive in my post. SR neither myself nor anyone on this forum is trying to tell you that you stepped over any boundary or that you hurt anybody in the process. All we are trying to point out is that children (from their perspective) need boundaries and if in this case their parents have not provided them, then sometimes we have to do the adult thing ourselves and provide them for them. I have no doubt that these boys loved you very much and that your intentions were anything but loving and sincere. But sometimes the best intentions in the world aren't the wisest ones - nothing more was inferred.

SR given my experience (I wont use the word again), do you think I would even vaguely be chatting to you so happily if I thought you were even remotely that way inclined. It is precisely because I see so much potential in you as a human being - the caring, the gentleness,the sensitivity,the loving, your strong conscience - that I wanted to relate my experience. You have so so much potential and your girlfriend and so many others on this forum and in your life see that as well.

None of us think you are weird or disgusting - those are your words alone. What is it going to take for you to be gentle with yourself, to forgive yourself and start seeing and appreciating what others see? Have you been to therapy yet? How did that go?

Please be gentle with yourself SR.

XX