Family and Religion

[Darkness]

So I know that some of you know that me and my mom had some serious issues and at one point I tried to kill myself because of said issues. I think a few might even know about how she has said really prejudiced and ignorant things about my religion too that are a put down.

Things like saying 'dont go and sacrifice babies' or using various insults. Even outside once she called me a 'devil worshiper' where people could hear. to some Satanists that actually is a put-down, and she knew it.

Anyway, I texted my dad for advice on what to do. It was right after a huge fight I had with my brother and mother. My brother says that if I'm not doing it for attention, then I should realize 'how much it hurts the family because of what your religion entails you doing'. My dad has been tolerant, but this text makes me feel like he may not be for much longer. He gave really biased 'advice'.

DARKNESS'S FIRST TEXT:

There was just a huge breakdown in communications when my mom started triangulating with [brother's name]. I think I lost him: he says he can't associate with what my religion does and my mom says what she heard off hand she does not like. I want to sit down and talk to them about it but just like my whole life, they never hear a thing I have to say.

MY FATHER'S RESPONSE:

Hi [Darkness' name] :-) I was thinking about your msgs. I think the way to understand their reaction is to consider the rational response to someone saying that they are interested in and worship a liar and the father of it, a murderer from the beginning, an accuser, a deceiver, seeking whom he may devour. He wants the worship that is God's.

God alone is worthy of honor and power and honor. Jesus Christ has prevailed, and crushed the serpent's head. Christ was wounded for our iniquities, and by Christ's stripes we are healed. I am Christ's and Christ is mine, forever and ever.

This is utterly incompatible with evil, thus you will face such reactions.

DARKNESS' SECOND TEXT:

Ya... I don't think you understand the first thing about Satanism. She has been very irrational about it. And just calling Satan a lair isn't justification for her. I understand her position, she thinks it will blow up her house or something. If Satan was so destructive then it would be awfully hard to lead people away from God.

Satan only killed less than 10 people in the Bible, God killed two million.

Also, I am more of a pantheist that has Satan in my pantheon.

I replied back with that last one a bit ago, he's probably asleep. Quite honestly it didn't sound like advice to me. What do you guys think, and what should I do?!

I came out of the closet recently on facebook, and that's what started the thing with my brother, then I called after that and it's all gone way downhill. I mean, my mom and brother knew before, as well as my dad who is divorced from her. I kind of wish I kept it to myself! I thought this was America!

[Filum]

This is America, one nation under...God.

He's not my god either, and as a "heathen" I'll tell you that it's not easy getting along with people who sincerely believe that they and only they are right. The reason they assume you're doing it for attention is because they can't wrap their heads around the thought that you actually believe what it is you believe. To them, it's impossible that you reject Yahweh because Yahweh is everything and loves everyone and created all and so on and so forth.

I say do nothing. If they bring it up, don't rise to the bait. Be indifferent. Eventually you'll live on your own or at least be away from home most of the day, and you can revel in the freedom. Until then, better to be a cowardly lion among bull-headed, preachy lambs.

[Darkness]

but i do live on my own... lol

though i am financially dependent on them until i can get a job, im looking for work. i just got my birth certificate today and am getting proof of address so i can get an ID card so that i can finally finish signing up for my GED

the part that gets me is that they assume that satan is all this or that, which is in their theology, but the part that really gets me is that my mom honestly thinks that i know satan is that and accept it.

Satan is a liberal lol.

[Rman34]

Well Darkness, I did not read your other post but just this once, from what I gathered you are indeed a saintness. This holds no weight with me or how I may view you as a person, in fact I think you use this religion as kind of weapon, a way to rebel perhaps agenst your family religion or they way they may or may not act toward you. They are not willing to accept it so thus you push it more and more to get some sort of self satisfaction, of course this is all just assumptions and I am not trying to sound mean, just my personal evaluation of your actions.

On other note, religion is always a hot-button topic, whether it be public, or even at home. Whole wars was fought and won or lost in the name of some ones personal view points on god, or gods or what ever.

The simplest way, in my opinion to resolve the conflict with your family is to come to some kinda of neutral understanding. Sitting down and talking with them might help, even having some one act as neutral mediator might help as well. And remember to always stay calm when talking about sensitive subjects, even if they start yelling and being offensive, you must stay calm, do not insult, shift blame or any thing that might be seen as an act of verbal aggression or bashing.

[Darkness]

s to come to some kinda of neutral understanding. Sitting down and talking with them might help

That's what i want to do but my dad seems to agree with them; I do not think he understands just how they reacted. My brother won't even come to my house ever because of it, and my mother keeps saying very offensive things even when I ask her to stop, but she just ignores me and keeps saying completely inaccurate things. She thinks that I, and my religion, do diabolical things in our rituals like kill people and use dead bodies and other horrific things. I've told her repeatably to not say that, that it is highly offensive and just plain inaccurate, but she insists on doing it.

I'm at a loss; maybe I could lie and say I'm not a satanist anymore, and say I am a polytheist who worships Lilith, Azeral, and Baphohomet (the Templar's name for Satan). Though I doubt they will buy that. Garh! I would have to lie and take out two of the gods in my pantheon.

[nathan]

Darkness, maybe you have gone through this in another post but I will ask...

What exactly does it mean to you to worship satan as opposed to worshipping god?

[Guest GingerSnap]

Darkness: As I mentioned in another post, I am not a Christian. Generally, unless pressed, I keep it to myself. I have friends that attempt to "convert" me so that I don't spend eternity in Hell for not accepting JC. My brother, I think, knows something is up and he is high on Jesus but lets it go to preserve the relationship that we have. It has to do with respect I guess. I have studied religion and lack of it on my own for 37 years and my beliefs evolved out of facts and feelings - what feels right and gives me peace. I have touched on Satanism and maybe if you had a way to educate your parents, yeah, I know parents but it is not what the Christian world would have you believe. You are young and you will go through a sort of evolution as you move into adulthood and you'll know for sure what is right for you. If they just refuse to listen to anything about Satanism and why you chose that, there is nothing you can do. I would try to avoid the subject and maybe just ask them to respect your choice and that you will respect theirs. Christians are very harsh in their judgment of those not Christian for the most part which is totally contrary to their teachings. Well, the only thing that I can say is, if the Christians are right, we'll be going to Hell together so I'll save you a seat. You'll be OK and questioning religious beliefs actually makes you stronger than those that follow like sheep. I would not engage in conversation if they don't want a give and take but would just say, "I respect your religion and I ask that you do the same for me. I would be more than happy to talk about what Satanism really is and what attracted me to it." Good luck.

[malign]

"I'll save you a seat."

There are seats? :-)

Darkness, there's really nothing we can do about people who say things that offend us. And, in a certain way of looking at things, what they say is evidence not of anything about you or your beliefs, but about them and theirs.

You could get angry, even fight with them about it, but I doubt you'd change their minds. You could avoid the subject, as GingerSnap suggested, or even the people, if they won't let go. I'd call it their loss, and let it go at that.

In the end, what matters is how we treat others, in my opinion. We usually have some set of abstract beliefs for why we treat them that way, but in the end, there are as many kinds of enlightenment as there are brains, if not more. "Do unto others" works pretty well, no matter who said it.

[Guest GingerSnap]

malign: Cute! Yes, there will be seats on the transportation in and I'll be taking a little fold-up stool because I hate standing in line and I am guessing the line will be rather lengthy. I am very confident about my beliefs, obviously.

[Darkness]

I just got another text back from him a few minutes ago and I am having a slight panic attack after I burned the bridge with my mom.

Though since my last text I sent him a few others, here they are first. I sent these before I got a response to the last one, so I could clarify some things.

Darkness's texts:

I should clarify:[brother's name] wont associate with me and my mom freaks. She even freaked, but slightly less so, when I almost went apostate (atheist specifically) for a while last fall. Her reactions are erractic and anxiety filled put downs and stereo types, for a lack of a better word. It is a logical outcome based on what I know me [i meant 'of] her, but it is not logical or rational behavior. It is unreasonable.

As they say, "reason is the enemy of faith."

Also I was asking for advice because I wanted to rationally sit down talk to them. I have given the courtesy of not saying bad things about your deity, I had hoped that would of done as you had wished others to do onto you, for I have with you.

Darkness's next text, off topic, but here for completeness:

Hey In planning on celebrate my birthday on the 26th at my house. I want to talk to you about it later, also going to talk to mom. I an inviting 3 friends i knew them from school as well. good hearted guys.

and this, is my father's response, took him about 24 hours from when the first post was made.

Regarding the words I wrote. They were not my own. Every phrase straight from the Bible. God's Word. I'm just a messenger, an ambassador.

Ambassador my fucking ass.

darkness's response

You do not get it, do you? Are you saying that god wanted you to tell me off and not help me? Dont hide behind that, the point is that it was uncalled for. It hurts me that you would be as callous as to take a shot at me when I sought your help. To think that I stood up for you to my mom.

I don't know at this point, am I handling this good?! or bad??!

my councilier yesterday also asked me some questions and made some comments as well. he didnt right outsay it, but his subtext implied that he was hostile to my ideas. I had some names for example, and he asked how I could know that it was all not just made up that these different names were all pretty much the same thing, Satan. I was trying to answer his question of how Satan isn't just a Christian idea, but a representation of man's natural instincts.

He also said at one point 'how can you believe in angels and demons but believe [in pantheism/and not the bible]. I told him it was just semantics, names for ideas about energies and forces and 'spirits'.

Then he said "anyone like Joesph Smith [founder of the church of latter day saints] can just make it up something and say it's true."

That wasn't a good session. He also said im not indepenedent when i said "yes i am, im taking care of myself" and he said "no, your grandpa is supporting you" Which isn't true, and I told him that the only reason my dad is helping pay the utilities is because I havn't found a job yet.

Just on the news today I heard that over 9% are unemployed. how is a drop out with no experience to find work?! The GED tests are not even open yet for this year!

[Rman34]

Well, darkness seems like things are bit rocky for you. But you have to just keep on pushing forward, shake off those that try and hold you back and just keep moving, even if it is slowly. But the last bit you said about your father paying some of your bills, well that tells me right there that he cares for, and that he dose not wish to see his (Son or daughter?. Sorry I do not know your gender..) Be homeless or suffer, so what I would do is focus on the relationship with your father, he cares at least in part, the next step would to be strengthen that positive relationship as much as you can. I am sure it will help you to feel less isolated and might bring some relief to you.

[Guest SomethingOrOther]

I think you're handling this quite good when you make it about your relationship and the way you feel about your parents behaviour, instead of making it about religion. If all they can do is make it about religion, that's sad.

[Loneone]

It is so hard for some people to believe that Christianity cannot simply be for you. I was raised in a very religious (but hypocritical) household. We went to church every Sunday even if my mom spent the entire weekend at the bar. I went through a lot of similar stuff when I told my family that I no longer believed in God. I was actually pretty clear as to why. Christianity is a mish-mash of prior religions, the Bible has been edited to suit leaders in power at the time, and the Church has taken power that is supposed to be sinful according to the Bible. You are in the process of finding yourself, and instead of just letting it blow over and letting you come to your own decisions about it, your family is making a much bigger deal of it then is necessary. Just let it blow over. Honestly, I wouldn't really even keep pushing the subject. You said yourself that you have previewed several religions over the past year or so, so chances are you are still not ready to settle. Also, I am a firm believer that no one religion can truly show you the way, you know in your heart which way is the true path. Good luck on your journey of self-discovery (no pun intended for those of you with dirty minds).

[Guest GingerSnap]

I'm agreeing with Loneone for the most part except for the "God" part. I thought you were handling the conversation correctly and you seem intelligent, your ideas, writing, etc. so the GED should come pretty easy. Yes, it is difficult finding work right now even for those with skills. My husband has worked about 3 different places in the last couple years because they get work, then no work. I don't know where you are at but if you get anything close by where gasoline was not a major cost, you might find something part-time. Yeah, not very financially lucrative but can be good for your spirit. Lots of people need help right now like nothing I have ever seen. I would try to avoid the subject of religion with them. If someone ticks me off and I cannot escape it, I pretend they don't exist. Just don't engage in conversation with them - redirect them to another subject. There is not squat that you can do with someone with a closed mind and know that those that feel most threatened are not secure in their own belief. Remember to take deep breaths and maybe count to ten.

[Darkness]

Thanks for all the support guys. he sent me another text this afternoon.

Dad's latest response

Remember it's very difficult with text to know the nonverbal cues of the other speaker. There was no malice towards you :-)

I plan on this response to try and put the nail in the coffin about it, can I get some feedback on it?

Darkness's planned response

Lol. Dad, I'm a writer. We have this thing we call "letting the dialog talk for itself". I use it all the time. It requires paying attention to word choice and sentence structure to portray the tone of voice and mood of the character. I've used the internet a long time too, and this skill has developed there as well.

I never thought you had malice, I said you were being callous. I looked at the sentence structure and I know you as well. You honestly believe that if the Bible supports it, that you can say whatever you feel like saying, regardless of others' feelings or own beliefs.

The point was, from the beginning, was that it was not about religion, it was about asking you to help me try to come to a mutual understanding with [brother's name] and mom. With your and her beliefs, we are not going to agree on religion. I wasn't asking for that, I was asking for help to try and sort out to them that my religion shouldn't be a factor in how they treat or view me. They won't listen to me, and they have pretty much disowned me.

I sought your help and advice, not a justification of their actions; I do not think that you understood, they are not simply saying my religion is a lie and all that, which is bad enough, they go further and make insults against ME and make accusations of terrible, violent, and disgusting things that I might do or that my religion does. None of the accusations are true mind you, but it hurts that these things come so off hand.

Oh, and don't forget, my brother won't talk to me at all now because I believe this, that was the big part.

[Guest GingerSnap]

That sounds good to me. It does sound like your dad really cares for you and I think he is thinking back on what he said and that he came across wrong. When you get older, it takes awhile to remember what you were like and we all go through searching for who we are which is part of the religion or not. So, he goes into automatic dad gear where he fears for you because of what his religion teaches and then, he thinks "I was young once too" and he is concerned how he came across. I have a son who is 34 years old but to me, he is still like the 10 year old he was when I am in Mom mode but then when I think it through I realize that is not the case and I was as much of a pain to my parents as he is to me sometimes. Your mom and brother, I don't know. They feel threatened and some people fear questioning what they believe. Maybe they are embarrassed and think by shutting you out, it will convert you which is the wrong direction. Personal insults are wrong. Just remember this some day when you have kids so you don't repeat the behavior that they are showing. Personally, I would want dialogue with you, "why" and have you present your case and we could brainstorm it, I love debate. Good luck!

[Moonstruck]

Darkness here ya go.....

"Dad, stop trying to 'save' me. You are trying so hard to see the man/God you worship and I don't try and stop you, change your beliefs, or convert you. It is MY soul I can do as I wish with it. Even if that means not going to YOUR heaven to see or be with YOU God."

Also, Your Dad need to accept you for who you are. Your beliefs are your own and his are his. If YOU can respect his, HE should be able to respect yours. Unless you really just like to argue with the man

~ I didn't quite understand what is going on with the mother & brother.

[Darkness]

I had a fight with them over teh phone. I called after my brother said he cant assosiate with me because of what i believe.

I texted my dad for help/advice because I want to sort it all out with my brother and mom. That's what started all the texting.

[vegan114]

Hi darkness,

I don't know if I can be of much help. I can't even seem to help myself right now.

I can relate to you I grew up in a christian household went to church every werk with my folks. I stop following the religion in the 5th grade I think it was... it took some seriouus shit to get me to turn my back on a religion that my entire family believed in and i grew up with but i dont regret it. Any how stumbled across the Church of Satan and called it my religion for a good number of years. My sister at one point found out about it because she was messing around in my room and found a few books. Boy let me tell you did the shit hit the fan! My father was always less then nice but he became to the point he was beating me and threatening to have me locked away. I was so afraid and didn't have the means to get out not that I could have. I tried to tell teachers and even the police but they took my parents side. Now I never chose the religion to piss them off I never ran around trying to push my beliefs on them if anything I hid it as much as possible and for as long as I could. My sister became creepy religious still is and she will not talk to me to this day. My parents never forgave me nor ever said sorry for their behavior. For me the only safe thing I could do was hide from everyone. Now with you ib think its good your not living with your brother or parents. I will say this if the only way you can be safe is to hide and lie about your religion please for your sake I think its for the best. Either way be carrful people are hateful at times. If your not in danger give them some time to cool off. Try to tell them hey let jjust agree to disagree and move on and tell them they are stiill your family and you love them. Just try not to debate with them neither party is going to change so there is little point to fight or debate on such a subject. The only thing thT can come of it iks hurt feelings on both sides. Sorry aabout my typing using my phone

[Darkness]

^

|

you know i forgot about this topic and only came back because my dad starting doing this again and i didnt have the texts anymore and i needed to print them out from here, but im glad i came back.

my dad apparently told a "handful" of people about it and didnt think much of it and i told him that we do not just for the reason you stated, people get physical.

do you mind if i use your story as an example to him? I plan on soon arranging a date to set straight some boundaries he's crossing and i thought it might make more sense to him if i laid clear not just teh boundries for him pushing it but also why satanists hide our beliefs often. he brought up some verse when i asked him who all he told, something about satan tempting ppl to commit sin in secret or some bs.

Also, the police should of done something, you were in physical danger. its fucking ridiculous how police cant give a fuck anymore. how old are you now? that happening is less common but even just 20 years ago it easily could of happened.

[vegan114]

Yes of course you can use my story. I hope it helps you. I hope your safe because my life got very dangerous for some time. Not that I'm much better off now....

I'm 29 now. I have NO relationship with my parents. My dad is still just as nasty my mom took his side even though she didn't always like what he did she always there. It also led to abuse by family friends.

My parents have lots of money and well known the police turned their backs one actually laughed and said I deserved it. We lived in a small town.

Religion can not be pushed or beaten into others. Religion can be a great thing it can be usedin a very pure and peaceful way but it can just as easy destroy people and relationships. Its best to love people for who they are and understand that we can't always agree.

I'm very liberal I try very hard to get along with everyone as long as it doesn't cause harm to others. What people do is up to them agree to some times disagree and grow as a personotherwise you can let someone you love slip away forever....