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Hmmmm Are you, who wants to be the driver, ordering other people to walk away from AA ? What exactly do you wish to be the driver of---everyone's life? I wish you a pleasant trip and lovely scenery on your personal trip through life. I plan to have the same---even though we take different routes. There are many roads to chose from and they ALL end at some point, so I will simply make my journey as I choose and wish you the same.

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I think what has bothered me so much is the bashing of AA. Did anyone get sober on their own? I mean did they NOT go to AA ? If they did not, what did they do? What are the steps they took to stay sober? How is it working for them now? Did they have a problem beyond drinking--like drugs?

AA is about the only game in town for many people and it is there 24/7 and free. It is not perfect, but lots of people get sober there. If someone is looking for help to get sober, is what is being said here going to help or just make them feel as if there is nothing to help them? Maybe there ought to be a subject called "After AA". The plain unvarnished truth is that if I were drinking today and I wanted help today---the ONLY place I could go TODAY is AA. I could call to see if there is a rehab center, but I would wait until insurance is approved, if I had insurance. I could go to a therapist, if I had money and could get an appointment---but most therapists don't treat drunks who are still drinking. So somehow, I would need to get sober to go there.

Actually, I get re involved ( mentally) now an then when I help someone.My neighbor and I met a woman living in her storage shed selling everything off. I got her off on the plane Sunday to her mom's house at her request. She is 48 and her life is a mess. I did not take her to an AA meeting. Her daughter has about 6 mo sobriety and I'll let her handle that. I had her SSI check so I had the money to cover her ticket. She cashed it her last day here and paid me. She could have stayed with me, but I told her no alcohol, so she slept in the storage unit except the last night. She still took a walk to the local VFW and drank that night. She will get sober or she will stay miserable or she will die. Some crazy doctor has given her a script for oxycodone and she is using those as well. I hope this woman goes to AA. I hope that she gets sober and gets her life together. I hope she selects someone who is not a nut for a sponsor. And, if she decides not to stay in AA, I hope she continues to stay sober. And, I totally ignored her talk of God and that He sent her angels to rescue her and I was one.

I have not been to a formal meeting in years. Last week I met another woman near my house and we got into a conversation about the the drunk woman and our own personal experience in AA. She is sober and fine---just sort of outgrew AA, like me.

So with all the reminders of those years so long ago, I just visited this website to see what is new. Not much different from then, some sober people arguing that AA is not for them and that it doesn't work. I will readily admit that AA will be very difficult for home drinkers. Someone needs to

want the social aspects of AA to attend and like it.

So whatever floats your boat--but don't keep shooting torpedos at mine.

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I noticed in Post 38 that Xenophen talks of Clancy. What exactly do you know about Clancy ? I , who have known him personally, am curious about your perception and personal experience with him. We do butt heads, don't we ? Still haven't read all the posts, but I will.

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I think what has bothered me so much is the bashing of AA. Did anyone get sober on their own?

I've answered this question time and time again. Read it on the DangerThinIce website or IndyMedia or Yahoo! Answers. Google "Why do people bash Alcoholics Anonymous?"

It ends with:

"Why should AA be immune to valid criticism? Where are the studies, the facts and figures that prove AA works? All you have are the testimonials of people who claim AA worked for them, what about the testimonials of those who say it didn’t and those who say it harmed them?"

Seriously, I'm getting tired of giving out the stats from the Brandsma study, the Vaillant study, Walsh, Ditman, Orford and Edwards, what have you got to show that AA works? The Moos study? All that showed was the longer someone was in AA, the more likely they were sober.

People got sober on their own for thousands of years before Bill and Dr. Bob told the world it couldn't be done.

Alcoholics Anonymous is of particular disservice to people who are diagnosed with mental illnesses, the idea that this is even a debate on a mental health board is a shock to me.

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Actually, you could post them everyday--and I would not care. I did not know that AA said that it was the only way to recover. The lady across the street used to be one drunken hell raiser---she is sober today and has not attended AA. Her drunken husband died and she quit drinking.I also was not aware that AA was supposed to help with mental illness--

And so it goes. Those who want to believe AA helps will believe that and those who don't will believe it does not help. If I am tired of AA bashing---well, then that is something I am tired of. If you are tired of trying to post statistics that show it only helps 5%, well that is what you are tired of. They are each personal positions. Those it did not help are just as correct as those it did help. I just hope that those who feel the need to get sober are able to get sober by whatever means they can and that their lives are better than they were before.

If you are shocked by this topic on this website---I suggest you email the administrator.

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Hi John,

You are one beautiful man !!! I probably, as I do with most things, just took what I needed and left the rest. In fact, in the meetings I attended that was one of the mottos. I remember sitting in church as a child staring at a stained glass window with God is Love printed at the bottom and hearing "hell and damnation" from the pulpit. We had a family in our church who had been missionaries in China and they talked about that. I decided that God would not create the world and people so different from us and then comdemn them to hell just because they didn't believe my particular concept of religion. And if that is what He did, then he wasn't a fair God. I, also, believe that the Bible was a book written by men, translated by men and edited by men. So, maybe, I have no religion at all. I do hope that my God is the one who judges me, if there is an afterlife. So, I guess that in AA, as in politics and religion, concepts are best left unsaid---if one wants to "get along". So, if I am not sober, please don't tell my family. They have enjoyed the fact that I don't drink or use drugs for many years. I am somewhat aware, on some level, that I often don't think like a lot of people I know.

I still will encourage people to go to AA. They will maybe stop drinking and never know that they are not following the "true program" as it was written. I have never been great with directions and can't imagine how I passed phlosophy in college. If something works, I use it and if it doesn't, I move on. I probably don't embrace anything wholeheartedly--always have some reservations. So, here's to our years of not drinking and many more !!

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  • 2 weeks later...

Hi John

As a Secular person I find that a Secular person is first faced with the out right derogatory statements by AA Literature toward Secular people. Then there is the smaller passive-aggressive AA Literature anti Secular Statements.

For example the Literature makes blanket statements about Secular people such as we are doing things alone or do not believe in anything bigger than we are.

Then there is the AA Promise that we can use a God of our understanding. Now if AA Literature was a legal contract I would sue for the right to use anything or nothing as the God of my understanding.

I would love for the image of AA to finally degrade to the point where the membership will finally be moved to fix all the mistakes in AA that hurt and even kill some people.

That being said I do go to meetings for the goodness of the AA members, not that the Literature or Foundation merit attendance. AA is like a necessary evil for me.

Abbadun

Er... actually, if you add up all the "points of attachment" of AA dogma (as Revealed in the Big Book and "Twelve and Twelve") with alcoholic reality, it does really suggest that the only road to Recovery (as defined by AA) is through taking Step One, and then working through the Twelve Steps, without interruption, to your dying day. This is the only option allowed to those "driven to AA by the lash of alcoholism" (Bill really loved alcoholics, didn't he ?) - unless one counts miserable alcoholic death. Of course, "Recovery" per AA means something other than merely not drinking, and the simple benefits accruing from that course. To be blunt, it means conversion at some level to the religion of the "God of the Preachers" - to the religion of Dr. Frank Buchman's "Oxford Groups" of the early 20th century. Before someone objects - Bill Wilson said as much. According to AA, the happiest mere ex-drinker is still a denying, suffering dry drunk. In itself a sort of death, perhaps ? To attain true AA "Sobriety", one must do (and perpetually do) the Steps, "prayer and meditation" (Eleventh Step - read Buchmanite "Quiet Time" seances) and all.

Of course, this does beg a question - does what most people mean by "recovery" equate with AA's "Recovery", and does what most people mean by "sobriety" equate with AA's "Sobriety"? I think that the answer must be, "No". It surely requires a huge leap of faith (and I use the term advisedly) to accept that in order to attain the benefits of a simple recovery from the plagues of the Evil Spirit, one must subscribe to the bargain-basement Buchmanism propagated by Bill W. and Dr. Bob. Simple release from addictive practice and its associated ills are all that most entering the Rooms for the first time want. Self-denigration, self-abnigation and a "God-controlled" life guided by "God" through a spiritualistic program severely at odds even with the mainstream Christian faiths and with their emphasis on scripturally-based revealed truth is all too often what is actually "suggested" to the newbee. By the way - I am a Buddhist/Stoic (or perhaps a Stoic Buddhist), and I am not hung up on the Bible or the Qu'ran, but I still feel the point is worth bearing in mind.

Again I echo Dr. Stanton Peele - if people find AA helpful, and can accept Bill W's version of Buchmanism or, in the alternative, cod themselves into believing that they accept it for the particular purpose sufficient to their personal recovery, well, fine. I would not decry this positive aspect of AA, for the people concerned, for a minute. Perhaps the more fundamental question is, whether there should be more of a challenge to AA's proposition that "Recovery" means just one thing, and that all would-be ex-alcoholics (although AA would reject the concept of an "ex-alcoholic"") should want that one thing that AA members "have got", in the form in which they "understand it".

For all I know, there are as many roads to true recovery as there are to God (however one may understand "Him"). This, however, is a perspective that is denied by AA, and is in consequence effectively denied to a huge number of suffering alcoholics hemmed in by the effective Twelve Step monopoly of recovery options over large parts of the world, and by the uninformed complicity with and approval of the AA model on the part of the therapeutic community, mainstream religious institutions (which, if they examined the matter, should really know better) and the public at large which - even without ridiculous phenomena like the US "court mandate" - soul-massage the sufferer into a program unsuitable to many, but viewed by the community in general as a safe containment zone for a problem that few have the clarity and courage to face up to, even in their own lives and families.

Maybe it should just be easier to recover without being forced to "want, specifically, what (AA members, they claim they) have got". Maybe it would be better if, when this dubious "medicine" fails, it were more practicable to try an alternative, rather than being forced by theraputic fashion and legal or social pressure to return to drink from the same bitter well. Maybe - but the prospects for this in the context of current fashion in the addiction treatment sector seem, for the time being, remote. I stand apart, and live in Hope.

Live Long and Prosper,

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  • 2 weeks later...

To say that AA does little-- either to help or hinder -- is not "bashing". That does not make me a man of stones either; anyone who calls himself xenophon cannot be. I am not alone in that life is, frequently, an anabasis.

AA is, I think, basically, a permissive. It is not, really, dynamic. It is driven; it does not drive. AA may be thought of, by some, as a driver. That error may be problematic at times.

What does AA actually do? Not what it 'wants' to do. What does it actually do? I submit that it does very little. basically, it gives permission to quit destructive drinking.

It is not easy talking people into and out of things; destructive drinking is little different from any other behavior.

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You know, guys,

I used bash in the context of the definition of "to hurl harsh words at" and so that is what I perceived. This is all so much nonsense. It is the same thing that led me to quit attending meetings---just on the opposite side of the coin. I listened to the podcast and don't really disagree with much said. If I had plenty of money and was seeking relief from an alcohol problem today, I could go to him and pay him. But it has been 42 years since I started AA---and that is a long time ago and much has changed and alcohol is really not a part of my life anymore. I haven't attended meetings in probably 30 years. I just have a look-see now and then when I cross paths with someone who is having trouble. There ain't no therapists in this little ole town in Texas--and not many big towns nearby. So for them ignorant and uninformed people with little or no money who are struggling with an alcohol problem---what exactly would you suggest? Many of the people with alcohol problems around here will never see this anyway---they don't have computers.They have pickup trucks and fishing poles and guns and are sitting down by the lake with their ice chest full of beer getting drunk. And their family is sittin' home wishing they'd attend AA. Any way, have a nice night all

SuziQ

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One lesson I've taken from all of this discussion is that i'm glad to know there is a diversity of approaches for people who want to do something about their drinking. If AA works for someone, that is fine. I've been educated by this discussion to realize that more people than I ever thought have had problems with AA, and I'm glad to know that there are alternatives to it, although as I've pointed out before, not in the smaller towns and cities. The internet goes a long way towards helping that situation, but not everyone has access (or wants it). It's also hard to get quality treatment for not-everyday-seen medical events in a small town - that's just the nature of a small town environment. not a lot of specialization in such settings.

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Hi John and All,

Problem is----I have no answer !! The even more bizarre thing is that I did not even know about AA/NA until I came home to detox from heroin. My mother found them in a newspaper article. At that time, it was illegal for anyone to treat a person addicted to heroin. I had not used long, but I was physically addicted. I, frankly, found the first relief in my life in that drug. I call it "the granddaddy of all tranquilizers". Problem was, it caused more problems than it cured. I had my first use because I was very physically ill and someone who used it gave me a very small amount in the muscle to kill the severe pain until they could get me to the hospital. It, also, killed the emotional pain and I was on my way to that addition.

My drinking was totally out of hand at the time--sometimes 30 days binges. The alcohol had led me to "lower companions" so I knew people on drugs. I did not stop drinking when I used. I did both.

AA/NA did save my life in many ways. That I chose to leave for many of the same reasons others talk about does not mean that it did not work. I did not get drunk or use when I left---I just moved into a different phase of my life. And many I knew who left AA did not leave to drink---they stayed sober---but after they were sober a while, did not like the rhetoric. So, in my mind, it worked to get me to a spot where I could find something that suited me better. And, nothing else had worked. I had therapy, 2 stays in psychiatric units (the only thing available then) and really never connected my behavior to alcohol. AA is so adament that I could not fail to see the connection. I did a fourth and fifth step and saw a lot about how I operated in my life. It was very helpful.

Do I believe that it is necessary to stay in AA forever? Absolutely not--unless it fits your mindset. I see it as the ONLY starting point available for many people. For many people, if they don't fix up that old Toyota (no matter how faulty)---they will never have a car. They must use what is available. I defend AA because it defended me until I could defend myself.

And, guys, I forgot to mention the female alcoholics run down to the local VFW and embarass the heck out of their families. Don't want to be sexist about this.

And, yes, John, my kitties are fine. Thanks for asking. A three legged kitty-- I know you must love him/her.

To all--have a great day and don't drink---no matter what method you use.

SuziQ

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I was 31 years old. I had really screwed up my life. I was 3 days into detoxing from heroin. I had started college at 15 with a 93 out of 100 percentile ranking on my admissions test. I had three kids. I was sooo ashamed. I wanted to change. The only people I knew by then were the people I used and drank with. A member of NA drove to my house and took me to a meeting. He said he understood. He said I would be ok. He said I was welcome and they would help and I would never have to go back where I had been unless I wanted to. At that meeting there was Charlotte, George, Rick, Hank, Bob, Wally, Julie and myself. Wally went back out after a few years, Julie was in and out and has a serious personality disorder, but did function for a number of years. Hank died a couple of years ago sober. Bob died sober and the rest of us are still fine.

Those people gave me hope--those people gave me understanding--they gave me love when I was unlovable--They listened to me--they taught me to live and laugh again. In our small group of eight--all made it for a while and 6 of us made it permanently. Later, some came and some went. One came in who knew me, but I had no recollection of him. He said I was always drunk when he saw me. I was a little embarassed, but we all laughed.

And so I changed and grew and finally left to move on out into a different place. They were right--I did not have to go back to where I came from that night. To this day, I have no idea what the concept of God was to any of them. We didn't discuss it--we discussed how to find work, how to become better human beings, how to avoid pitfalls that could lead us backwards instead of forward.

We went to the Pacific Group on Tuesday night (Clancy's group). I never had sex with Clancy. Occasionally, he'd get lucky---but not very often. I, occasionally, told him I thought he was an ass, but it did not affect my sobriety or his.

So, does AA work? Hell, I don't know. If I am a therapist and my patient gets drunk, is it that I am not good or that alcohol was simply more attractive? Just as I loved my husband who couldn't stay sober, I loved AA with all its faults. And. just because a life preserver saves my life, I don't carry one around with me, but I will throw one to a drowning person.

So keep coming back--life is so much more interesting without alcohol.

Night, John. How many kitties do you have ? Take good care of your three legged one--it is a reminder that one does not have to be perfect to be loved.

SuziQ

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I suppose that we are getting to the point of defining the problem. And, the realization that AA is only one route. That is an accomplishment.

I just have the small thought that it is difficult for many to understand obsession with drinking alcohol. perhaps it may be useful -- clinically -- to associate it with other obsessive compulsive behaviors.

Also, people are unique. The severity -- time and amount - varies; the reasons for abuse vary; etc.

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Hi

One of the reasons that I like to speak out about the many major problems in AA is that in my area AA has a strangle-hold on the self-help addiction groups. Too many Addiction Counselors and Rehabs herd people in AA and other groups simply do not have a chance. One way to fight this is to constantly highlight the many problems with AA and like programs.

AB

I suppose that we are getting to the point of defining the problem. And, the realization that AA is only one route. That is an accomplishment.

I just have the small thought that it is difficult for many to understand obsession with drinking alcohol. perhaps it may be useful -- clinically -- to associate it with other obsessive compulsive behaviors.

Also, people are unique. The severity -- time and amount - varies; the reasons for abuse vary; etc.

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Hi Abbadun

I wonder if explaining all the other programs and all the things they do that AA does not do would not be a better way. You cannot ask a person to let go of the only lifeline available to them until you can present a better one. And although I have not read all the posts, where are the ones about how I got sober in program X or Y ? Even the podcast---the guy started with AA. And most of the people so unhappy with AA got sober there originally.

Here in the US, we live in a Judeo-Christian society. Those men who founded AA lived here and wrote what worked for them---based on their upbringing and values at that time. And like it or not, I live in a community based on and governed by mostly "God-fearing" people.

I have asked "what do you suggest?" and I get answers about how AA does not work.

I agree with Xenophon, AA is only one route---so ---let's move on and talk about some other routes. If AA is NOT the route for you, why keep focusing on it? Just let the people who get sober in AA be happy with their sobriety and you be happy with yours---however you got it. Share with us what you are doing. I know I would be open to hearing new things.

By the way, someone posted to me in private email a most wonderful definition of Buddhism written by Albert Einstein--no other comment, just the definition. I wrote back asking why she sent it to me, but have not received an answer. ( It wasn't John, it was a woman and I have not seen her name on any posts) That definition opens up new avenues to explore--even at my old age. And I was so grateful to get it.

SuziQ

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Here ya go---some new treatment ideas and a BOOK to go with them. Don't know that I could pay the cost, but it does appear to address a lot of the concerns some have. Go to passagesmalibu.com For some different religious ideas---try--- spaceand motion.com/theology-AlbertEinstein

I have just sort of looked over the sites, but there they are anyway.

Xenophon---Passages seems to address a lot of the issues you brought up in your last post. It just showed up in my spam mail and I decided to look it over before deleting it. It really looks interesting. See what you think.

John---you might like the space and motion website.

Enjoy--I'll be out of town for several days.

SuziQ

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Hi Claire,

Welcome. If you read my posts you will know that I have not gone to AA in years. Also, none of those programs existed when I got sober. I do not know how I missed the problems with the rhetoric--but I did. I don't mean it wasn't there--I just didn't care. Still don't. I just plain got tired of the focus on what was no longer a problem for me.

So, what type of tools are used in the programs you mentioned ? That is what I mean about other programs. Have you been ? How has it helped? What is different? I know the names--I just don't know what they offer. I know Rational Emotive Therapy because I took a course in it and all the counselors used it when doing counseling, but AA was the only actual program available to refer them to back then. And there were no treatment programs My therapist did not suggest I go to AA. But I was already sober.

Maybe I just think differently from other people. And if that is the case, then it has little to do with AA or any other program. If something doesn't make sense to me---I just ignore it. I, and I alone, am responsible for maintaining my sobriety. When I was a counselor, years ago, my groups were based on individual responsibility--for your sobriety--for your actions--for your reactions--for your happiness. NO program will keep you sober unless you wish to stay sober. NO program can dictate how to live your life or what to believe in and if you let it ---then that is your choice---not theirs. If you do not like what is available in one program---go look for another. It is your responsibility to determine the course of your life. I got sober and I started reading books about alcohol and about therapy and how to books and some were great and some were nonsense. Going to AA did not stop me from doing anything I wanted to do, but it did remind me that drinking was not a good idea. Dogma was not popular in LA in the 60's and politically correct was not even heard of--so maybe AA is different today. I know what the "book" says but most of us just ignored a lot of it and it was ok. Guess I'm just out of tune--but I kinda know that. Getting old is a bitch.

SuziQ

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Hi Claire,

Didn't mean my response specifically for you---just was sort of rambling. Think I'd take the posh Passages program (20 hrs of one-on one therapy each week)---if I'd had the choice back then--or maybe not. My self esteem was at such a low point that I might have decided they wouldn't want to accept me. Still, I had a great stay at Cedars Sinai just before I got sober. Lots of celebrities--spent the afternoon at Dinah Shore's house--her daughter was at Cedars and she asked me to go home with her. Her dad was such an a** and she didn't want to deal with him by herself.

Self esteem has always been an issue for me, but being old helps a lot. I get my Soc Sec check no matter who likes me or approves of me. It just got in the way of earning a living. I was always worried I'd get fired and have no money to support the kids. Went to law school for a year when I was about 3 yrs sober. Somehow, raising teenagers, earning a living, going to meetings, dating and all the reading and writing briefs was more than I could handle. I couldn't type and that didn't help. I never had issues about my ability to do things--just about my ability to be acceptable. AA accepted everybody--I desperately needed that.

So, like you, alcohol is not an issue with me today, and when it is no longer an issue---AA is a drag. And, no, there is no exit plan, but I don't think the founders planned to exit. I'm glad you are here.

SuziQ

Edited by SuziQ
needed to add a sentence
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