sex education

[JaiJai]

You're right.

[finding my way]

When a part of you wishes another part of you dead, you will be in trouble with you, and it may seem like you can't be friends with us because we are friends with the part of you that you wish would disappear. As friends on this site, we are friends with all of what you've shown us, which is not just you acting out, it is all the other exchanges as well.

At some point, you will need to relate to the part of you that is carrying your pain. If you continue to bully her, squeeze off her air hoping she will die, you will suffer from mental illness.

And I know that leaves you with a tough, tough "project," building a relationship to your pain.

The good news is, it is doable.

Pain always shifts if it is given a voice, a hand to hold, a face that does not turn away.

And I have no wish to bully acting out self either. Just hoping more of you can be heard.

[JaiJai]

build a relationship with my pain?

[malign]

Absolutely I think you've been trying. All this posting that's going on, that's all part of you trying. All the pain, and the defenses against pain, that's all a part of you trying.

Don't you think we're trying with you?

Would it take character to walk away, or is it taking character to stay here and figure this stuff out?

Sure, masturbation's easier ... but we talked about that before: how real is it?

And, when you think about it, isn't all this acting out just a different relationship to your pain? Since you're relating to it already, maybe it's a healthier relationship to your pain that you're looking for.

[finding my way]

[[[Yes, some are helped by Jesus.]]]

Meditation and yoga can help.

Friendship.

Movies, books, poems.

I'm dying to know if the purple side of truth can help!!!!!! (or the fuchsia??)

You're doing fine with the black parts of truth, but there are white parts to it as well.

[IrmaJean]

Don't forget pink, finding. I can always help with finding that!

My brain is slow today. I'm here and I care.

[devils daughter]

I think there does need to be more information about the process of building a relationship with one's pain out in the world. I know what I found stumbling around by myself but that's not step-by-step instructions for anybody else. I've written about it here, though, and I'll be glad to offer suggestions -- which may or may not be what you need but at least it might spark some ideas if you feel stuck.

[finding my way]

An angle you already have is your work life...

Take the way you relate to those kids when they are in pain. Can you picture engaging that side of you to then attend to you in pain?

[finding my way]

And beth is in charge of the pink side of truth... DD, are you covering the red side?

[devils daughter]

Also, with regard to your post that started this line of conversation, the only truth I can know is my own subjective truth, which is maybe best expressed in terms of feelings and impressions. I felt the need for that, too, though not so much anymore. But here’s what I came up with last night:

I like you. I feel you’re a lot like me in lots of ways.

(That’s honestly the first thing that popped in my mind. You can claim that doesn’t count because . . . whatever. . .but that’s the subjective truth from this insignificant/screwed-up person.)

The cold hard truth is that I feel your family failed you. (So? I may have failed my kids and my parents may have failed me. I loved/hated my parents anyway. My children may be working on the hate angle of that now.)

You have a sex addiction. (But compared to putting yourself in harm’s way, masturbation sounds like a great idea to numb the pain you have to feel in order to build that relationship. It’s a temporary numbing but the good news is that whatever pain you’re able to tolerate before you had to numb out is then able to be processed and it dissipates in several days – gone forever, although the capacity to feel pain is not. Eventually you may find other ways to ease the pain, like Finding mentioned.)

[devils daughter]

Yes, I guess so, Finding! Vicious, aggressive bitch/wolf. (Still feel a little yuck about that.)

[malign]

{I think she just meant the red of your flower, D.}

I've got the shiny forehead side of truth, then, I guess.

[devils daughter]

My perceptions are my perceptions! I did understand the color reference, though, and I appreciate being included, Finding.

[JaiJai]

im sorry

[finding my way]

I did 12 steps for codependency at al-anon years back

I was able to make peace with my anger going to those meetings... just my experience

[finding my way]

Wolf Woman can be a red truth, DD.... wolves are very knowledgable, agile, and decisive... maybe a more positive side of looking at it than "bitch"?

[finding my way]

And Jai, maybe the part of you that would not want children subjected to porn could be a side you could try to turn toward you someday...

I know this is not easy.

[JaiJai]

maybe.

[IrmaJean]

The light is beautiful to see....

We're here to support you, Jai.

[JaiJai]

so

[devils daughter]

Prevent the nervousness or the spinning out of control or both? In either event:

1. Tell the therapist what happened and that consequently you felt nervous coming back for another appointment. See if you can get some suggestions or help so that you don’t spin out of control again. That should probably be a priority goal for the appointment.

2. Write back here if you feel you are about to go out of control, or if you can tell after the appointment that he didn’t help so that you are liable to feel out of control again.

Knowing that you have this (minimal) plan may help the nervousness going into the appointment.

[JaiJai]

hunh.

[LaLa]

This text was written after my reading of your request for our observations of your behaviour. So it doesn’t reflect what has been posted here in the meantime. Moreover, it’s horribly long for what I am sorry, but that’s the only way I’m able to write about complicated topics. I hope very much that you’ll read it all, not only a part of it, because it "makes sense" / "gives the right message" only as an entirety.

Hi, Jai,

I’d like to respond to your request of writing down our observations of you. However, I’m unable to avoid also some subjective comments and interpretations, so I hope it won’t pose a problem – I’ll try to distinguish them clearly in the text. (BTW, I don’t want to do it just by PM, because I consider the possibility of feedback / reactions from others quite important. They may totally disagree or explain some things much better than me and I think it’s important for you to see also that we are different and may have different opinions and perceptions (which still can be OK and doesn’t have to lead to harsh arguing).)

Let me start by a quotation which came to my mind when I saw your request for comments on you and your behaviour. It’s from a book about group therapy by Y. D. Yalom:

[...] feedback such as "You’re OK," or "a nice guy" is far less useful than "I feel closer to you when you’re willing to be honest with your feelings, like in last week’s meeting when you said you were attracted to Mary but feared she would scorn you. I feel most distant from you when you’re impersonal and start analyzing the meaning of every word said to you, like you did early in the meeting today." (These comments, incidentally, have equal applicability in individual therapy.)

It seems to me that you’re looking for something similar and as this kind of feedback is important in therapy, it might be important also here, so I decided to try to do it for you, although I’m not experienced in giving such a feedback and, unfortunately, no therapist is here to somehow "process" the feedback into something more useful.

First of all, I’d like to mention my thoughts about your wish to know "the truth", Mark’s statement that you’re not ready to handle it and you feeling offended by this idea:

What I see is that you don’t understand each other, that’s why you feel offended. Maybe Mark would be the right-one to explain it, but I hope I may try to do it, my way:

It seems to me that you imagine that there is some "truth" which people derive from your posts and behaviour here, but they don’t want to tell you about it because they don’t want to hurt you (as you’ve been already "hurt enough" by others, so to say). So it’s natural and logical that if this is the case, you feel angry and frustrated and want to uncover "the truth" and when somebody says that "you’re not prepared to handle it adequately", it only increases your conviction that "it’s something bad" and you also feel offended by the idea that you’d be incapable to "handle something bad". The mistake I see in all this reasoning is that Mark, and any other member communicating here with you about this, didn’t mean anything on that kind – that kind of "truth" – because there is not anything like that. I’m going to try to explain it with some "circumlocution" (typical for me, I know):

I have to say – to be honest – that I agree with Mark about you not yet being ready for handling the truth and this is my proof: You already have been told or "foreshadowed" the truth many times here, but I haven’t yet seen you using it for some helpful purpose, accepting it and deriving some sequels. I hope it’s rather clear now what I mean by "the truth". However, here is one example to be more concrete:

You already know that it’s prohibited to post obscene pictures on this site and also that in case you do it, the admins delete them, warn you, and still keep liking you, communicating with you, supporting you, trying to help you. You know these truths, but I can’t see the logical consequences of your knowledge, so I conclude that you can’t yet handle the truth. I hope you see here that I’m not accusing you of anything, I’m just writing my observations as you wanted. In case you’d like also some subjective interpretations, I’d say that you still cannot emotionally embrace the unconditioned sympathies and affections of others and so you need to repeat over and over the situations where you receive the proof that they really and constantly exist, no matter how you behave.

Now I’m going to try to express something similar to the Yalom’s quote, just much longer (more complicated):

- I feel much closer to you when you’re communicating without invectives and when you’re expressing (any kind of) your wishes and your feelings related to your life. [i’m adding this after having read what has been posted here today: A very nice example of this is right here: You posting about your feelings and thoughts about the therapy session! ;-)]

- I feel closer to you when I see you trying – when I can recognize the trying without needing a complicated intellectual effort to riddle your "acting-out" (as others call it here and I have no idea how would I translate this expression to my language, but I hope that despite this, I understand what it means ;-) ) – to recognize the trying hidden inside some of your complicated (please, notice that I say complicated, not "bad/wrong/...", here) behaviour.

(I want to point out in this context, that I don’t think that your aim should be to make me feel close to you. I’m just describing you what makes me feel closer and what, on the other hand, puts a distance between us and it’s only up to you what you do with it. I realize that I’m not an important figure in the process of your healing. But maybe I’m a kind of more distant (-than others here) observer that could provide a complementary info. I’d wish you’d receive more comments of this kind to see that every "distant observer" has his own observations and feelings, so there it no "truth" of the kind you probably imagine, there are just many subjective perceptions.)

- On the contrary, I (probably the only one – or at least the only one from those members who do communicate here with you) feel repelled by you when you use your munitions of repelling stuff. Yes, I’m such a strange, "old-fashion" "prude", which can easily get disgusted or "triggered" by shameful language or pictures. (Sometimes I guess that one part of you would be happy if everybody here was like me, because that would be the right "audience" for her "shows" – as the one this Sunday. Because – isn’t it frustrating trying to disgust and repel people who don’t care so much about such language and pictures?)

When I see the indelicacies even in the titles of your threads (or when you choose an obscene avatar), I can’t help myself but I instinctively avoid your posts and have to work hard on overcoming the avoidance. I know, this is only my own personal issue. But I still have to wonder why you use this indelicate style: What is the implicit message? It’s only your natural way of expression (or would you call it "teasing" as you once did in a different context?)? I’ve already written that it might be seen as your effort to receive repeated proofs of the unconditional affection of your friends. Yes, the affection is here and there are pretty many people willing to show it to you. But you still might wonder about the others – about us who are silent. Aren’t we scary – just observing and saying nothing? So when I tell you now that sometimes (sometimes, not always!) I feel repelled by your behaviour (not you as a person, just by the means you use – as words and pictures), how does it make you feel? Is this what a part of you wanted to achieve? If yes, then how does it make you feel knowing that it was almost successful? Is it safer for you to repel people who might try to help you, because this help would include knowing you deeper, or because it would include your intensive effort to change yourself, or... (– there are many other possibilities)?

- Also, I feel clueless in case I see you not responding to the efforts of others. By responding, I don’t mean gratitude (which is fine, too, of course – and I’ve seen your "thank-you-s"), but rather answers to their questions and comments on their suggestions. One of my observations is that you often don’t react at all to words/ideas/suggestions which might be useful. For instance (I’m sorry this is not a key example), when you were writing about DD’s and your mothers’ illnesses, DD suggested you – among other things – to write your texts distinguishing between her and your life, to describe your own experiences instead of your fantasy about her life, her mother, ... But all I’ve seen you doing was just fantasizing about DD’s case involving the emotions and conclusions derived from your case, ignoring the differences and lack of information. Please, notice that I don’t judge it, I’m just telling you my observation: You have been given a place to talk about your traumatizing experiences, but instead of trying to do it OR of saying "I don’t want to go into this, I don’t feel like doing it now", you only vented your own emotions triggered by a different story of somebody else (DD) and you continued doing it also when that person seemed a bit upset by your reality-distorting approach and suggested you to change it.

Other observations:

- I see you avoiding the responsibility for your own behaviour by giving it on the shoulders of the admins: If they don’t delete your account or don’t ban you, then it’s they fault and responsibility what you do here. Instead of changing your behaviour, you want others to accept everything or nothing. I see this as one of the kinds of the black-and-white thinking Mark mentioned and, once again, as inkling that you can’t yet handle the truth – the genuine relationship your friends have towards you has to be tested (-if they accept really everything) from time to time.

- I see your intelligence and eloquence. There are several people in this community who often amaze me by manifestations of their intelligence and eloquence (yes, I admit I "have a soft spot for" both). Sometimes you’re among them. However, I’m sorry that I haven’t yet noticed you to use them in the service of your healing. It seems to me that you’re sometimes not lucky having them, because they provide you with stronger tools for reinforcing your trauma-related distortions and sophisticated arguments to overturn the verbal efforts of others to help you (in cases you respond to them and don’t ignore them).

- I observe your replies to the problems of others. Sometimes you let your bad mood or your unhealthy attitude to blur your reasoning – as when you recently wrote (I cannot paste a link to that post as I deleted it) to a man scared to possibly be a pedophile that he should just f*** whoever he wants to. Other times, you’re supportive and/or bring original insights. However, you often derive them from your fantasy about the situation but present them as if you were sure of having the entire picture (see, for instance, the case of DD’s mother, or here, in the beginning of this thread, you wrote, as if it was obvious (although it’s not true), that the men with SPS have their info about sizes from certain films, not from real life). This is related to the next observation:

- I see you trying to help others, but often with a strong "adulterant" of arrogance that makes me feel as if you were trying to say: "Look, I know how to help, I can look at this problem from the right side, I have good insights, but, please, just don’t suppose that I’m so nice and kind that I’d serve for you this all with an awkward (?) wrapping of nice words, useless compassion or something like that! Just don’t dare to think that I’m a good person trying to help!" Although you really do try to help and can have good and useful insights. You just seem avoiding the possible positive image of you this help might evoke in others. Or there’s another possibility: You are "helping" – giving your opinions and insights – only to show your knowledge and intelligence, not because of the people themselves. For people who just observe and know nothing about you (thus not me, as I also have few insights into your situation), those possibilities are not distinguishable. In any case, I wonder what you in fact get from the way you write, help.

Of course, I have to illustrate the arrogance I mentioned. Two recent examples occur to me:

- A member mentioned that she’s been abused by her uncle and that she still feels a kind of resentment to her aunt related to that experience. And you reacted by (it is also already deleted) something like: "Your uncle kissed you when you were 14 and you still hate your aunt? Harsh!" I wonder if you really cannot discern the malicious tone or if you can but suppose it’s OK. Here, it seems to me that you rudely trivialized the trauma of abuse by calling it "kissing" (maybe I’m wrong and it really was about kissing, but even in that case I don’t see a reason for trivializing) and you judged the feelings of another person, even without knowing the context.

- In the beginning of this tread, you communicated with LE about SPS. And just as an accessory or maybe as a figure of speech, you used towards him the words "your 3’’ d***". Regardless of the inappropriate usage of such a word (indicating, to somebody like me, strong negative emotions of the user), I’m clueless about the reason why you needed to mention your fantasy about his size, probably underestimating it in purpose. I have no idea how this kind of expressing sounds to you, but it sounds as an attempt to humiliate (LE, in this case) to me. So you posted a useful video and wanted to voice an important and insightful opinion, but at the same time, you probably (it seems to me) felt a need to enwrap it into some arrogant add-ons (including, from my point of view, also the affirmation that they all get their info just from fiction – also implicitly supposing that everybody watches porn, which seems badly prejudicial to me, too) as if you wanted to counterbalance the positive side of your posts.

- I observe also the frequent deletions of your posts, or – what is worse, because it confuses the reader much more – the replacement of what you wrote by some babbling. Perhaps everybody is sometimes tempted to delete and some of us do it sometimes. So this is not something special about you. However, it (together with the deletions by us, moderators, which were necessary because of your rules-braking) makes any potential discussion about your "behaviour here" a little more difficult.

You also mentioned that you’d like to have some guidelines to healing. Of course that doesn’t exist, but I was thinking that maybe you might benefit from reading some books about healing, therapy (the guidelines for therapists do exists – and many kinds – and may be insightful also for some patients (there were for me, for instance)), people who overcame mental problems, addictions. Have you tried?

For instance, there is one book (which I haven’t read, just comments about it), which is fictional, but written by a famous therapist (yeah; Yalom again ;-) ) as one of his educational fictions (the author call them "teaching novels"): http://www.amazon.co...l/dp/0066214416 It’s about a former sex addict who is becoming a therapist himself. I don’t know how much it’s focused on the sex addiction and the principle of its overcoming, but maybe it could be insightful enough. Me, I was reading another "teaching novel" by this author (When Nietzsche wept) during my therapy and although the problems of the main characters were different from mine to a considerable extent, it helped me a lot in my own therapy, offered insights and new directions.

It might also be encouraging to read about/from people who survived a trauma and became not only mentally strong and healthy, but even had a very fruitful life. It might be inspirational to see how somebody who, for instance, survived the holocaust, build a new philosophy and a new therapeutic approach, or somebody born in a concentration camp (where he lost his family) and later, as an adult, was persecuted by communists, became a philosopher and writer and an active philantrop. At least it has been beneficial for me and many other people. I’m not obtruding any books to you, I’m just "thinking in writing" about possibilities that exist and might be sometimes helpful to you, too.

In the end, you might want to ask about the "ultimate result" of my observations: How do I feel about you? Do I care? Wish I that you get much better soon? Etc.

Instead of answers, I’d like to add two questions about the reasons why I wrote this text:

- Do you think I wrote it driven by a foolish feeling of superiority wanting to show to others that "this is what Jai needs, you just can’t see it, now you’ll see that I can help her"? Ha! I’m not sure at all what you really need, I’m even scared that this text will hurt you! Moreover, I’m pretty sure many others will be rather angry at me that I wrote this and will see it as a product of my presumed insensitivity, "need of self-displaying", or my total misunderstanding of your situation and your needs. So I’m not happy about posting this at all, but since I see a certain probability that it might help you somehow, I want to risk it.

- Do you think that I’m bored and have nothing else to do than to think several long days about you and to spend several hours writing this text to you? If you thought that, it would be false, too ;-).

I hope that by this text, I won’t spoil the presumed positive effect of your recent therapy session :-(... In any case; I don’t want to hurt you and I wish it was obvious...

Take care!

L.

[LaLa]

P.S.: I like your new "avatar" very much . It feels optimistic to me, btw .

[IrmaJean]

It's great that you kept the appointment. Being open with the therapist and expressing what you are feeling is always a good idea. Using positive self-talk to reassure yourself is a great tool as well. I do that a lot and find it very helpful. Maybe try to keep yourself busy today or do something relaxing if you are able to before the appointment. Try to be very in tune and aware of yourself if you can. I hope your appointment goes well.