paedophile and fine with it

[LaLa]

I'm glad you haven't given up this conversation . I'm sorry if it's going therribly in your opinion. But it's a difficult subject, istn't it? For all us us.

do i really have to explain why i'd like to be able to be myself without fear?

This wasn't what I asked about. I understand that you're scared and I know it's not a good emotion to live in all the time.

Of course, I don't have "solutions", unfortunatelly.

what sort of change do you suggest? deluding myself that i'm not actually in danger every day? as long as the danger is real, the fear will be real.

Well; I don't know. But what I'd like to do first it to question that "delusion" and that "danger". We are all living in a constant danger every day - we may be killed in an accident, ... - many things can happen, you can imagine. But would it be right to "obsess" about it, to be constantly frightened? It seems to me that maybe the danger you're scared by isn't as probable to affect you as you suppose, mainly in case if you don't expose yourself to it too much. So the question would be - what's the right way of life which would be a compromise (we all need to do compromises...) between the two extremes neither of which seem possible/appropriate

I know I'm too theoretical here. I need to think it out more.

P.S.: Mark is right about the meaning of my question about "poly".

[The Beholder]

Personally, I find fulfillment in choosing to limit myself to the person I'm in love with.

that's unbelievably insulting.

Rephrased, her question was, If you're attracted to every woman you meet, are you going to suffer if not all of them feel the same way?

as i already said, my attraction comes very easily, but means nothing to me without an emotional attraction. my emotional attractions are very selective. to put it another way, i find fulfilment in choosing to limit myself to the people i'm in love with.

[LaLa]

that's unbelievably insulting.

I have no idea what could be seen as insulting in that. Who's insulted? By what?

as i already said, my attraction comes very easily, but means nothing to me without an emotional attraction. my emotional attractions are very selective. to put it another way, i find fulfilment in choosing to limit myself to the people i'm in love with.

OK, so now when you understand my question, you may also understand the analogy. In the "analogical situation", your answer, as I see it now, is that no, you wouldn't suffer from not being in a relationship with everybody, but you would suffer from the lack of the possibility to be in a relationship with every person you're also emotionally attracted to (nd those might be just few). So when I try to shift this to the primary situation because of which I "invented" this analogy: You would suffer only from not being understood and accepted by few people which become somehow very important to you (emotionally, I suppose). This already limits quite pretty the number of people you'd have a reason to reveal your opinions to. My point was to show you that you don't (emotionally) need to reveal your opinions to everybody. Can you agree now? Can we somehow move forward?

[malign]

I'm sorry. I don't understand; I wouldn't try to insult you. It could be that I don't understand polyamory. I was simply describing my monoamory ... I'm listening (well, honestly, I'm about to leave, but I will listen) if you were willing to accept my apology and try to explain what I said that was hurtful.

In particular, the way you rephrased polyamory (limiting yourself to particular people, just more than one) was just how I understood it.

In the end, where we seem to differ is our beliefs about whether children can reciprocate sexual love.

[The Beholder]

no, i do not agree. just because i only desire to share myself with certain people does not mean i should be okay with hiding myself from everyone else! why would anyone be okay with that?! you wouldn't say this to anyone else. it seems like you're trying to convince me that there's something wrong with me that i ought to hide!

[IrmaJean]

Hi.

Sometimes when we fear things ourselves, we can unconsciously project our feelings onto others. I do it myself, sometimes. If I feel myself becoming upset when reading another person's words, it helps me to step back, take a breath, and regroup. I have found that strong responses and feelings are usually about me. I don't know if this fits for you or not.

How can we best support you?

[The Beholder]

how about treating me the way you'd treat anyone else? if there was a young gay person asking you if he should come out to his family, would you really be saying "well, if you think about it, do you really need to? is it really all that important that your friends and family understand and value you as you are? i bet you'll find that keeping it to yourself won't be as bad as it seems.". that would be horrible advice!

[IrmaJean]

I like feeling accepted and understood by others. Though I may not agree with your views, I do understand that need and want. At the same time, I also know that I can't control how others might respond to me. Most importantly, I have to be okay with myself. If I am okay with myself, the possibility of rejection from others does not elicit such fear and anxiety. This way I give the control back to myself rather than to external sources.

[malign]

Here's what I honestly would say to a gay person contemplating coming out to their family (and have said; the issue has come up before.)

First, I'd ask them what they're hoping to achieve, what their goal was in coming out. Assuming, as is reasonable, that they said something like "establishing a more open and honest relationship with my family", the next question I'd ask is whether they feel that might be possible, given their knowledge of their audience.

Not all families (or any other group of people) function ideally. Some families might not be able to accept one of their members as a homosexual, and it should certainly be up to the person to decide whether they want to live honestly without their family or somewhat dishonestly (or call it privately?) within it. "Should" the family be that way? I might say that I don't agree with that attitude, but what difference does my opinion make? If I think that their family is "wrong", do I get to force the family to be "better", more accepting, people?

Perhaps the gay member could work towards educating their relatives so that the transition is easier, but it's an unfortunate reality that we don't actually get to change other people. They have to want to. To address your objection directly, of course it's important for your friends and family to value you as you are, but you can't "make it so". It's an unfortunate fact that many people don't feel valued by their family, despite having been completely truthful with them.

What this situation might mean is that a person may decide that, in their current environment, they have to give up some portion of what they wish they could do. Or, it could conversely mean that they decide to do what they wish, despite the consequences that they foresee. What isn't going to work is to proclaim that what they wish to do is "right", and that therefore the rest of the world owes it to them not to impose bad consequences.

The reality is that we do not live in a perfectly free society, and moreover that such a society cannot exist. Complete individual freedom would require complete isolation, because every disagreement would escalate without bound. To say it the opposite way, living with other people requires compromise, and compromise is by definition the voluntary relinquishing of freedoms.

We don't choose the society we're born into any more than we choose our parents, but when we come of age we get to choose to stay in the society we're born in or seek another one. Even if we stay, we can choose to try to change some aspect of our society or accept it, but it's a bit much to expect society to change just because we as individuals believe it should.

Anyway, what I'm hearing from what you've said is: you're afraid of speaking out about your beliefs, but you refuse to "be okay" with not speaking out. I honestly haven't said anything about what you "should" do; I'm not anyone's conscience but my own. I'm just pointing out that what you're asking for is a guarantee that no one actually gets. People die all over the world all the time for having different beliefs, and it's irrelevant whether you or I agree that they "shouldn't". That's the reality of the current world, and denying it, shall we say, isn't a sign of good mental health.

[The Beholder]

you're missing the point. even if you told him that it was not safe for him to tell his family, you would NEVER question why he wants to!

I have to be okay with myself. If I am okay with myself, the possibility of rejection from others does not elicit such fear and anxiety. This way I give the control back to myself rather than to external sources.

yeah, that's all well and good when nobody wants you dead.

[malign]

I might actually question why he wants to tell them, if he tells me that the situation is such that he won't get what he wants that way.

And honestly, I don't see myself as Dear Abby, handing out answers. Most of what I have are questions. The decision of what the answers are and what you're going to do with them for your own life are entirely yours.

If you can articulate what you feel you need, I'll try to support you any way I can. I can't promise I have what you're seeking, though.

[FrenzyFire]

It sounds to me like for somebody who wants acceptance you're not very accepting of other people who think differently than you do.

All you do when people bring up alternative viewpoints is belittle those viewpoints and say that these people need help because they have a problem, but that you don't. Like MM said, you would think you of all people would understand acceptance of others who think differently rather than just saying that they're the true problem but you're the only clear thinker in the world. Did you ever think that maybe the reason people don't like you is because of your abrasive personality and not because of your atheism as just listening to you talking about people here I can only imagine what you sound like when you talk about religious people. I saw you post this same topic on psych forums and both topics involved you insulting the people that tried to help you and refusing to respond to them. I know people are being tolerant and helpful but if you're going to be a jerk to everybody who takes the time to make replies to you I think they're being too good to you to continue helping. Not everybody agrees with your views, so stop acting like everybody's an idiot except for you. If you don't accept those viewpoints why should they take the time to accept yours?

[LaLa]

It sounds to me like for somebody who wants acceptance you're not very accepting of other people who think differently than you do.

Actually, I've just came here to point out this same (maybe by some different words, not as apposite as these).

However, I can understand that you're probably angry and that your anger might make you write in a way which sounds more insulting that you'd wish. But anger is an emotion that comes and goes, if we're able to healthily "process" it, and when it goes away, people usually tend to be more rational and less suspicious (suspecting bad intentions in everybody, based on some words they take in a wrong way)...

How are good you, in general, in processing / dealing with anger? (maybe irrelevant, but...)

[LaLa]

I'm back...

i hope you can see that despite the fact that we argue and have some very different opinions, we don't refuse you and still offer our time and efforts. It seems to me that you anger might be related to your impatience - it seems like if you came here waiting for a quick help or solution. I can relate to the wish for quick and simple solutions - who wouldn't like them? But it seems like you're rather "attacking" (sometimes) the people who're talking to you and the result is that we discuss more about your attitude and character now than about your "initial" problem. Which could be fine in case you'd be willing to learn something about the way others see you through your way of writing. This might be helpful in trying to accommodate the way you write so that people would see you more like you'd like them to see you. Or do you want to appear as insulting and uncontrollably angry?

There's one thing about "hiding a secret" I could say from my own experience. I've been more or less suicidal and anxious since ~14 y.o., but there wasn't anybody except my best friend and lated my current husband who knew at lest something about it. I started therapy when I was 27 and my husband is the only one from all my family who knows about the fact that I was in therapy. And I don't have any problem with it. I consider the therapy as a major "even" in my life, I've changed thanks to it very much and I still am largely influenced by it in many ways, but I don't need to talk about it with my family and I have only several friends who know about it (but most of them don't know about my former suicidality). Yes, it was a good feeling to tell the friends about it. But I'm OK with the secret. I know it's different from your case, but I wanted to show you an example so that you see that when I'm talking about hiding something that feels important to the one who hides it, I can talk also from my own experience. (And don't tell me that nobody would kill me if I tell him I was suicidal. I know. But I also don't think that somebody would kill you if you told him your secret. And at the same time, there are certainly some people who would kill you for "any other reason" (as for being atheist - some extremists don't tolerate it) as well as they would kill me, so...)

[LaLa]

But when mentioning faith: I'm also an atheist. At school, the majority of my friends were Cristian but they didn't care about my "lack of faith" at all. My husband has now a friend who's a Muslim and who can't understand how somebody can be an atheist. But he told him already several times: "You're like a good, even ideal Muslim!!" - wondering a bit "how it is possible" that an atheist seems to be so much "like a Muslim" by his "good character". My husband always replies laughing: "...or like a good Christian, or like somebody with any other classical religion or as a good atheist..." ... What defines you in the eyes of the majority of "normal" people is what you do, not what you believe or what are your sexual or other preferences. But I have to add that if I came to a country/community where there would be many people hating atheists and wanting to kill them, I wouldn't talk to them about religion and atheism at all and I wouldn't suffer by this "limitation". I don't need to talk about it with those who refuse to accept any different opinion. Your problem seems to be that you refuse not to talk about your opinions with people who you prejudicially see as wanting to kill you because of them. In what aspect am I wrong??

[The Beholder]

i see this has been a waste of my time. you've all created a strawman to talk to, so i'm not needed anymore.

the whole reason i'm seeking help is because i'm tired of people making decisions about me based of preconceived notions instead of bothering to find out who i really am. you're sure been a huge help in that regard. you are all cruel and callous human beings and you should be ashamed of yourselves.

[LaLa]

Something by J. K. Jerome:

And a song that came to my mind:

[media=]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vH5bnB6Tucs

(I don't like this vocalized version, but haven't find the other-one...)

[The Beholder]

take your own advice, and let me speak before you judge me.

[TheBeheld]

You guys are terrible. Instead of helping him with his problem, you tell him to keep it to himself, which is the root of his problem to begin with! You are actually adding to the problem! What is wrong with you people? Are you even reading what he is saying??

[FrenzyFire]

We're terrible? Look a lot of people have tried to help him...but he is the same person who said this quote in an earlier post

"they are messed. in. the. head. i was creeped out by talking to them, and i never want to be compared with them."

There are a ton of people who would say the same exact thing about him...so when he acts that way to others, it's hard to show compassion. He says that his problems aren't pscyhological, because he views young girls exactly the same as adult women. Now, many people - and he must know this if he's afraid about people finding out - would find that to be a SERIOUS psychological problem. So how can he make that same judgment about other people and yet when it comes to his specific point of view he's a saint? I want to clarify that I'm not trying to say he's messed in the head. I don't think he is OR the people on that website are. My point is that if he lives his life in fear about people finding out about him he has to know that there are people who would say the same things about him that he is saying about others, yet he wants to be able to express himself.

Also presumably, you don't even like kids - you said yourself you find children immature (Well of course they are...they're children.) You said that if a child was very mature and intelligent you would want a relationship with them. Well, since that's a very small subset of children, and you said yourself you are attracted to many many many types of women, and young girls and women have no difference to you - it seems like young girls make up a very small subset of the types of women you would want to have a relationship with. So is it so terrible to limit yourself to only adult women? I know it's not ideal but you still can live a very fulfilling life and form many relationships with adult women.

Unlike homosexuality, the general public besides maybe close friends of yours, are not going to accept you being a pedophile. They won't want to listen to reason. That's just the way things are. We're not saying to keep things secret because we want you to bottle it up - we're telling you that because saying it isn't going to go well...and you know that yourself. But if you're worried about people finding out I wouldn't be. Think of it this way, you'd never do anything about the attractions so you don't have to worry about people finding out about that. A lot of people don't like kids so if you're awkward around them (And you really DON'T like kids) people are probably just going to think you don't like kids. Nobody is going to assume you're a pedophile because you don't do anything that would lead to them assuming it. I think it's the people that seem to like kids too MUCH that they're going to be suspicious of.

But anyways people here really do want to help, but you just keep shutting down us and others and have thrown out insults and a ton of abrasive comments. People are here to support but not to get abused by you when they try to help...

[The Beholder]

you are so far off the mark it isn't even funny. you haven't even tried to listen to anything i've said. what do you expect me to think of your intentions when you won't even listen to me?

[malign]

You've got a point, at least in terms of us needing to listen. This is your thread, Beholder, and there's little point in anyone getting angry at you in it, whatever they feel the provocation may be. The intent of our site is to support; we may not succeed, but we have to try.

So, I would rather turn it back to you and Beheld, and ask you individually: What do you each think Beholder's "problem" is? What would you each suggest he do about it? What would you each suggest _we_ do about it?

I ask you separately because you both might have useful points of view, and different ones.

[LaLa]

I would post the same or very similar questions.

I wonder what we did wrong - what made you feel that we didn't listen to you. I suppose that this impression is based on the fact that we reacted very differently from your expectations. I admit that we (or at least me) didn't understand you and your problem. And I'd like to understand. I don't want to give it up just because you're so angry that "we are all so deaf".

I wonder what would you reply "in our position" to somebody else who would write the same things you did. You accused us from not treating you as we would treat anybody else. So; how would you like us to treat you? What exactly you think we did wrong? (But I don't mean the answers of the type "you wrote things I don't agree with" - which seems to be an underlying blame in your posts...)

[LaLa]

I'm confused by this:

Instead of helping him with his problem, you tell him to keep it to himself

As we suggested to "keep to himself" the only fact that he's attracted also to children, this (what I quote here) implies that "the attraction to children" is the problem itself. And at the same time, you say that we should help him with "the problem", so you think we should "help him with the attraction to children". Yet this is obviously something HE refused at the beginning, saying that for him, it's not a problem and he wouldn't ever want to do anything that would somehow attenuate this attraction. - Can you see my confusion?

[The Beholder]

i could not possibly have been clearer. my problem is a fear of people and an inability to be close with anyone.