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Luna-

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Thanks for the explanations and the link, Luna. I think it's important for us who've never been through this to 'learn' such things. We can't just "guess", "estimate" it...

One of the comments under that blog-post:

When depressed, the shower feels like thousands of needles trying to penetrate my skin. The act of washing my hair and body, then drying them and then having to blow-dry my hair is absolutely exhausting. The whole process takes 35 minutes when well. Can you imagine how awfully long and exhausting the process is when moving your body feels like you are drowning in a pool of clay?

It reminds me the state of hight fever. And I've heard before that depression sometimes includes also physical pain... and, as I see now, also other kinds of physical discomfort... :(

I think that it's good to leave it just up to the person when (s)he decided to shower, but I'm not sure about the role of some encouragement. I would, for instance, say: "It is one pain on the top, but it at least - unlike the other pains - brings a sense of purpose, it allows you the choice (you can choose to shower or not to, you can choose to sacrifice something for a purpose, at least a small-one) and, after being over, it brings also a feeling of accomplishment." However, I can easily imagine arguments against this all (like "Such a purpose? To be clean? What for? It's not worth the pain!" etc.), so... Well, I think that by this post, I am mainly asking what seems to be a preferable attitude of those who talk with somebody depressed about this topic.

BTW; how about your cats? Are they often with you these days? (I remember days when they rather avoided the inside, so...)

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Could it be that being unclothed brings up feelings of vulnerability that are too much to bear? Maybe there can be a way to take care of you during this time?

Thank you for sharing the article and expressing your feelings. I'm always interested in having a better understanding and I think this helps me to understand better.

I hope you feel better. Thinking of you.

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For me, there have been times when a certain measure of "just do it" was helpful

Of course this is what must be done. Just do it. As must many things when depressed, like going out. And it is the only way it actually happens. I can gather myself together to shower twice a week, depending on when I have to be out which I regard as good enough. I have no-one in my life to encourage me to do things to help myself, so I have to do it myself. It's just that this happens against a background of great inertia and anhedonia.

but your disruption, your need, may go deeper than that. In my own experiences, I have often thought of depression as an "it"; in particular, as something that wanted to kill me. I didn't appreciate that, or associate it with a part of my self. If, on the other hand, it is closely associated with a part of you, then it's no longer an "it", it's a piece of your "you". Maybe that shifts the approach to the sorts of things one would do to comfort a suffering child, instead of defeat an enemy.

It doesn't feel like an 'it' now. It feels like it is my failure. I know that I am causing it myself and that thought makes me feel worse. And somehow not making myself shower is comforting myself and saying "you don't have to do that if it makes you uncomfortable." Allowing myself to stay in my bedroom, often in bed, also feels like I am taking care of me and letting me feel safe and unstressed. Except of course that that only worsens the depression. To help lift the depression, I have to go and do the things I least feel like doing. Taking care of myself means I have to push myself.

By "milestone", I was attempting to refer to birth date obliquely. It seems I succeeded, in the obliquity at least. ;-)

When depressed, any occasion that is supposed to bring good feelings - "Happy" birthday - sets up the pressure to be happy, which I don't feel. Making me feel like a failure again. Christmas is a nightmare every year. Anyway, the day is over, so that pressure is gone.

I know I sound pathetic. And I also know I shouldn't criticise myself.

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Do all gestures of comfort feel like an attack? Are some ok if they don't threaten to change your state?

Gestures of comfort don't feel like an attack. I was just trying to explain why showering is and why I am reluctant to do it. The article put words to how I felt about it. I appreciate all the comforting words and the sentiment behind them.

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Well, I think that by this post, I am mainly asking what seems to be a preferable attitude of those who talk with somebody depressed about this topic.

In a depression, it is important to go through the motions of normal life, even when they don't make you feel better. (My T reminded me of this yesterday again.) Not doing this only deepens it. So it is important to get up, to get clean, to get dressed, to eat and to go out. You have to force yourself to do it. All those things are accomplishments, but like you have said, it also feels like "What for?" The accomplishments don't make me feel better.

It is difficult to talk to a depressed person about this because just telling them they have to get up and get on with it, feels like not-understanding. I already know I have to get on with things. I just need to be heard. And just to talk, even if it is about shoes and sandwiches. Just be prepared to hear that my shoes are worn and dirty and my sandwiches dry and unappetising. I know I am rotten company and I say things that are distorted and that people don't want to hear and it makes me isolate, but I need the contact. That is why I write here.

BTW; how about your cats? Are they often with you these days? (I remember days when they rather avoided the inside, so...)

One of the cats was killed by the dog next door. I have just one left. She is wonderful and comes and snuggles up to me at night. During the day she is out and I don't know what she does or where she goes, but she comes home at night.

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How is today, Luna?

Difficult. Been crying again. I got up and got dressed and went to the GP for a check-up that has been way overdue. So I have done what my T would say was enough for today. Now I am sitting on my bed on my laptop. I have to stay dressed until my tenant comes home at about 5 because I want to ask him to feed my cat while I am away visiting my daughter later this week. That is in about 4 hours time. Then I will get into night clothes and go to bed. I have dishes and clothes that need to be washed but that feels insurmountable.

I really appreciate being able to write here and have people listen. Thanks for asking, finding.

Sorry I know nothing about the technicalities.

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I'd be happy to listen to anything you want to share, Luna. I like vegetable sandwiches myself. Homegrown tomatoes are the best. It's okay to talk about your feelings too, if it helps. I don't think you're rotten company.

We are your friends. We are here to listen and support you.

I'm sorry you feel sad. :(

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Luna, my idea/image of "a rotten company" is hugely different from how your company is (or "would be" in person)... ;)

From your descriptions, it seems to me that you're doing just fine - I mean as far daily functioning (= not emotions) is concerned. :)

I hope the GP check-up will have good results! When are they due?

Was it your decision to meet your daughter? In any case; I'm glad to hear that you're going to meet...

You mentioned it's winter where you live now. How does winter "look like" in SA?

Good night! (Or already good morning? :o)

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I am down to one job over the summer, though it is turning into more hours than before.

I know that your university program is super tough, but did you learn anything that inspired you? That would suck if it was only hard work :(

As for shoes--- what do people in SA wear in the winter? I'm thinking not fur lined boots, but what do I know?

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Thank you for talking to me, everyone. It is so nice to log in and see a reply in my thread.

How does winter "look like" in SA?

Winter here is really mild, compared to winter in the USA/Canada, Where I am, the days vary from 12-24C and the nights 5-10C. I don't know the F units. It gets cold inside because we don't have heating and I have very poor insulation. My flat is also built of stone which for some reason keeps it cold, so in the day it is often colder than outside. Occasionally we get frost, but it doesn't get too cold.

I know that your university program is super tough, but did you learn anything that inspired you? That would suck if it was only hard work :( As for shoes--- what do people in SA wear in the winter? I'm thinking not fur lined boots, but what do I know?

To be honest, finding, my course at the university is not that tough, objectively speaking. I haven't really learnt anything inspiring. Phonetics was mildly interesting but the courses were all just stuff that had to be learned. I don't know if I have lost the ability to get enthusiastic about anything, but I just don't get fired up about stuff anymore. It is a pity and even my T recognises that it may in part have something to do with the meds, he said so last session.

We just wear normal shoes. Socks in winter. Nothing exotic or exciting, sorry. I never wear shoes inside.

I went out this morning to get my meds, washed clothes and some of the dishes (a few of them had mold growing on them, that is how bad it has been in the last while) and then felt I had done enough stuff for today (I know that is really pathetic but that is where I am now) and came to sit on my bed.

So we have talked about shoes and sandwiches. What is next? How is the weather where everyone is?

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But, what kind of sandwiches do you eat? :P I often substitute lettuce for the bread and roll all sorts of good things inside.

I don't actually eat a lot of sandwiches, I am not that found of bread. So your lettuce idea sounds fantastic! I think I am going to try that. What do you put in them?

If not being able to get fired up about anything is in part due to a med, how do you weigh the risk vs. the benefit? That must be difficult.

Yeah, it is. For me, it is the price I pay for staying out of the severe depressions. Periodically, it is too high and I start fiddling with the meds. And then usually I end back on them because inevitably all that happens is another depression, never a mania. My manias are not that harmful. I get a bit carried away but I am mostly able to keep it from attracting too much attention or becoming too outrageous. I channel it, that is what I always did in the past.

I am grateful for dishes sometimes. It is something I know how to do and I don't have to think while I'm doing them. On mold specimens: don't look in my fridge, ok?

How is your internet connection these days, Luna?

Grateful for dishes. You are a special sort of person, finding. Want to come for a visit? Speaking of fridges, I know there is food hidden in the back that has been there for months. Probably a thriving ecosystem in there. But tackling that is for another day...

My internet connection is iffy and slow. I struggle to watch you tube videos as they keep stopping to spool. But that is life. I could pay a lot more per month and get faster internet, but I can't afford to.

Speaking of pink, do you like flowers, Luna?

Sure, I like flowers. I used to dry them and make a lot of potpourri with essential oils.

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"It is barefoot weather here for sure! Extremely warm and muggy."

Except that I have to walk through downtown DC to the office every day. I'd describe it more as a sauna with your clothes on. Then you hit the air conditioning ...

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Wow, Ken; that sounds so yummy! :)

Luna, I'm thinking of you, too...

BTW, your description of winter in SA reminded me of an article about winter in Taiwan - very similar (no heating inside, ...), but even colder...

(I'm glad you haven't used F units but degrees Celsius as I would have to use an on-line converter to understand :P ...)

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Finding:

I like Rose best. Also used lavender. But I don't know many essential oils so I am not the person to ask about that. :)

Wow Ken, your food sounds delicious!

Hi IJ. Update follows.

Lala, I knew you would get the celcius numbers so I didn't convert.

Hi finding. :)

I took a 12hr overnight bus ride and am now visiting my oldest daughter near Cape Town. I stay here until Tuesday night and then take another overnight trip home. It is wonderful to be with her! Her boyfriend is here too for the weekend. Nice guy.

I saw my pdoc on the day I left. She changed my second anti-depressant to another one, so I am hopeful this will help. There are so many ADs I haven't responded to, but I will have hope for this one. It will take a few weeks to know. I will see her again in October.

We are going out to eat tonight. I haven't been in a restaurant for years.

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