At the risk of annoying people...woman here!

[Resolute]

And just to add, is there any guys out there who are going to back me up on points 3) and 4)? I can't/don't want to believe you all have this attitude about women.

come on sessy,i don't have an "attitude" towards women.so don't try turning others against me,lol.

[Sessy]

Klingsor, that is a fair point. It probably isn't logical. To my eternal shame I think the arousal and thus the satisfaction was due to the bad boy factor. Having said that, my fiancé isn't like that remotely and I still have had the best sex with him by a country mile. And the second best sex I've had (this sounds silly now lol) is with the only other person I've ever really loved. There seems to be a connection.

You are also right I'm sure on the one night stand thing. That's never been my bag but I imagine you're right. But hey I'm a sentimental soul so I'd say the relationship is better anyway!

Skynight that is an interesting point. I've found the subject of a victims response to rape fascinating, as I have read that some women deal with it by fantasising about rape thereafter. Even having studied psychology I have no idea about the explanations for this, though I suspect something along the lines of normalising it to deal with it. But obviously that is not a universal response. Who knows?

As for your other points, 1) i totally agree, there just should be consequences for men too. 2) again fair point, but probably more complex than that. How many little girls want to grow up to be firefighters or labourers? And how many labourers would react positively to a female amongst their midst? I can only speak for the UK but I doubt it would be positive. Women do also tend to be physically less strong, so that is another factor at play. 3) what if she likes what she is wearing? What if she is wearing it because she is meeting her boyfriend later? This is not a feminist thing i think men should be able to wear whatever they like too! Look at gay pride marches for example, sometimes men there are scantily clad. Does that mean I'm allowed to pass comment and make them feel uncomfortable? Or one better, since men also comment negatively on females e.g. No tits, should it be okay for me to go up to a man and say you don't look like you have much of a package? Why would I do something so obviously designed to make someone uncomfortable? 4) no I wouldn't leave my doors unlocked etc, but the woman isn't walking around with a sign saying please rape me. Why shouldn't I be able to walk home after dark? Men do. As I say, men should be able to show restraint and if they can't, they are worse than animals.

I agree that women in the west are not oppressed especially when you consider other parts of the world. But I think there are subtle changes that should be made. I for one will be teaching my sons how to respect a woman regardless of clothing, time of day, or alcohol drunk.

Resolute I don't mean to offend or turn people against you, just as a woman I find it quite offensive that there is one rule for men and one rule for women. Obviously you didn't make it this way but it's not nice to have to look over your shoulder or worry about your female friends purely because of your gender.

[Guest Klingsor]

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[Sessy]

Skynight, I refer to my previous comments re. scantily clad men. I agree it doesn't happen often and I agree that the sexualisation of females is largely the media and society's fault, but the point remains. It wouldn't be fair for me to make a man uncomfortable so it shouldn't be fair the other way round. Just because something happens so often that it's the norm, doesn't make it right. If it did we would still be stuck with racist societies like apartheid.

Your point about rapists seems fair. But I would argue that again this is a lot to do with how women are seen. As pieces of meat. If we could tackle the norm of talking about women as sexual objects, perhaps rape would become less common? I know it wouldn't be eliminated, but surely it comes down to this basic lack of respect for a woman's right to say no?

Klingsor, thank you for that. You are really interesting to talk to. And very eloquent (i'm an English geek!) It makes me sad to hear you say these things though, don't write yourself off, as I say, if someone falls in love with you, they will find a way to accommodate you, and you them.

[Resolute]

Klingsor, that is a fair point. It probably isn't logical. To my eternal shame I think the arousal and thus the satisfaction was due to the bad boy factor. Having said that, my fiancé isn't like that remotely and I still have had the best sex with him by a country mile. And the second best sex I've had (this sounds silly now lol) is with the only other person I've ever really loved. There seems to be a connection.

You are also right I'm sure on the one night stand thing. That's never been my bag but I imagine you're right. But hey I'm a sentimental soul so I'd say the relationship is better anyway!

Skynight that is an interesting point. I've found the subject of a victims response to rape fascinating, as I have read that some women deal with it by fantasising about rape thereafter. Even having studied psychology I have no idea about the explanations for this, though I suspect something along the lines of normalising it to deal with it. But obviously that is not a universal response. Who knows?

As for your other points, 1) i totally agree, there just should be consequences for men too. 2) again fair point, but probably more complex than that. How many little girls want to grow up to be firefighters or 1-labourers? 2-And how many labourers would react positively to a female amongst their midst? I can only speak for the UK but I doubt it would be positive. 3-Women do also tend to be physically less strong, so that is another factor at play. 3) what if she likes what she is wearing? What if she is wearing it because she is meeting her boyfriend later? This is not a feminist thing i think men should be able to wear whatever they like too! 4-Look at gay pride marches for example, sometimes men there are scantily clad. Does that mean I'm allowed to pass comment and make them feel uncomfortable? Or one better, since men also comment negatively on females e.g. No tits, should it be okay for me to go up to a man and say you don't look like you have much of a package? Why would I do something so obviously designed to make someone uncomfortable? 4) no I wouldn't leave my doors unlocked etc,5- but the woman isn't walking around with a sign saying please rape me. Why shouldn't I be able to walk home after dark? Men do. As I say, 6-men should be able to show restraint and if they can't, they are worse than animals.

I agree that women in the west are not oppressed especially when you consider other parts of the world. But I think there are subtle changes that should be made. 7-I for one will be teaching my sons how to respect a woman regardless of clothing, time of day, or alcohol drunk.

Resolute I don't mean to offend or turn people against you, just as a woman I find it quite offensive that there is one rule for men and one rule for women. Obviously you didn't make it this way but it's not nice to have to look over your shoulder or worry about your female friends purely because of your gender.

before i comment on the rest of your post,my last post about turning people against me was just a joke.

1-yes,i would.

2-yes,most little boys dream of becoming laborers.

3-i'm sure quite a few men wouldn't mind seeing women labor around,lol.

4-they're less strong and less other things too;and at the same time more attractive and more other things as well;hence my beliefs about justice and fairness.

5-being naked and drunk late at night is screaming please rape me.again not that it's in any way acceptable to rape anyone.

6-everyone should be able to show restraint,but that doesn't mean that one should parade around naked and expect others to not look and not make comments and labels,etc....

7-i find it very difficult to respect naked/half naked or drunk people.respect after all starts with one's self,so a woman who doesn't respect herself enough to dress properly and respectably,or doesn't conduct herself in a respectable manner,like being drunk etc,doesn't deserve much respect;that's not to say one should rape her.

[Sessy]

Lol I loved your men wouldn't mind seeing women labor around comment

Unfortunately it might just be a fact of life that the vast majority of women are not fit for these strenuous jobs which may ultimately put them at risk. I for one would be moving bricks one at a time! Hehe

The naked thing was an exaggeration to make a point, naturally people would stare, men and women, at someone who was naked because it's unusual. But I think girls who are not dressed particularly modestly, shall we say, are very much the norm, and thus there's less excuse to be staring etc. as I say, she may have her reasons. There's also the case where a woman goes back to a mans house then changes her mind about having sex, is that her fault if he then rapes her? Because she put herself in that position? A man should still know not to.

I personally don't like to be scantily clad, nor do I like to be too drunk. But I still think other people have the right to should they so choose.

[Resolute]

There's also the case where a woman goes back to a mans house then changes her mind about having sex, is that her fault if he then rapes her? Because she put herself in that position? A man should still know not to.

obviously raping her isn't acceptable in any sense.that said,maybe she should at least give him a bj,just to shut him up.

[Sessy]

I absolutely agree on both counts. However, you have to ask yourself why? A woman will use her looks to get a rich man because media/society hold this up as a good idea. Just like many people seem to think being a glamour model is the pinnacle of human achievement for them. I personally don't think either of these things are a good idea, but there is a massive culture that says it is so. And so women do it. I actually believe that women have lost a lot of respect for themselves too. Maybe it is not surprising that men don't respect them? The same applies to the clothes I think - women feel under pressure to dress a certain way and wear make up because to not do this would mark you out at different and less attractive. Again, not great but from personal experience society/media demands that women look a certain way, and men in turn 'demand'this from women.

[Sessy]

Resolute you are pulling my leg now maybe she should shove a strap on in his mouth, as this would more effectively shut him up!

[Resolute]

About women dressing scantily clad. Many of these clothes are designed to put emphasis on certain body parts. Like shorts skirts for the thighs and ass, tight jeans for the legs and ass and bras for the breasts. You add this to many cosmetics that women wear. Take away all the cosmetics and those clothes and I suspect many women would be stared less at. These dress sense are highly sexual, whether the women who wear them realise that or not. And many of these clothes can make a women look more sexually alluring them if she was walking by naked. Because it's inviting a man to stare at certain parts of her body.

Many of the clothes that men wear aren't revealing so that's why it isn't comparable. If men were all walking around with ultra tight shorts where you could see their bulge, many more women would stare. But it's just not promoted, and men's clothes are more baggy.

not just that,but one should also account for the fact that biologically,men are way more visual than women,and women are much more attractive and enticing than men.so there really is no comparison.

[Guest Klingsor]

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[Sessy]

That's all perspective Klingsor. Personally I think the female body is drab and dull and the males much more attractive!

[ShameOnThem]

Sessy, I think you're killing it here. I have agreed with pretty much everything you have said. I literally lol'd when you said you could just marry yourself.

I also think that we keep coming back to the important issue of perspective. The old saying, "...walk a mile in their shoes." is really old and still really true. Resolute admittedly cannot empathize with women, because he has lived all of his life as a man. Sessy came into this topic admitting that she didn't fully comprehend how damaging male penis shame can be on men. It's great that we can acknowledge what we don't fully understand about eachother, and work towards being more compassionate towards the issues that others face. It is because of this that my heart breaks for young women who are growing up and may be on the wrong side of the bell curve when it comes to weight, breast size, ass size, and looks in general. More compassion in the world is always a good thing.

I've disagreed with much of the things I've read in this discussion, mostly about who the responsibility falls on to avert sexual assault and whether women are disadvantaged(us men have to remember the perspective thing when speaking about women). I'm glad Sessy is not being scared off by the woman bashing(and minority bashing, thanks, wutty) that is unavoidable on this boards. Reading this discussion makes me happy because it seems like ideas and opinions are being shared openly and nobody is making things personal.

[Resolute]

That's all perspective Klingsor. Personally I think the female body is drab and dull and the males much more attractive!

wow,are you sure you're not legally blind? have you seen women? if they were drab and dull,this forum wouldn't exist.but you're a chick and straight,so it's understandable you'd find men more attractive.

[u.r.what.u.is]

I just want to interject in the rape discussion. No matter how a woman might try to get attention, sex has to be consensual. There's no excuse otherwise.

[Resolute]

I just want to interject in the rape discussion. No matter how a woman might try to get attention, sex has to be consensual. There's no excuse otherwise.

i think that is the consensus,yes.

[dvnJ22]

Now the op is trying to push a feminist propaganda about how women have it so tough. Go live in Iran if think you are being persecuted. Fuckin women every goddamn time here they do this.

Other then Irma

[Guest Klingsor]

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[mts]

-

[Resolute]

it's a shame isn't it.

[Victimorthecrime]

But we're just animals, and we're sexually expendable - it's survival and if you're weak you'll find yourself outcast from group, a potential prey for others...

[Victimorthecrime]

This is the truth I wish I knew when I was younger.

[Sessy]

Shame, thanks for your comments. It is a bit scary I will admit, hence my next point.

Dvn I don't have a feminist agenda or whatever. If I did I think it would have appeared much earlier in my posts. The reason I probably come across as sounding feminist is because of all the sexism here. Some of the comments would make any woman defensive. I like to think I've tried to ride the waves so to speak, and respond civilly.

U.r.what.u.is - that is exactly the kind of attitude that all men should have, and I commend you.

Klingsor, definitely not legally blind, just don't dig the chicks! Personally I think men are a lot easier to deal with than women as well!

[u.r.what.u.is]

U.r.what.u.is - that is exactly the kind of attitude that all men should have, and I commend you.

I have only recently started giving any thought to the issue. It seems to me when we ask how any rape victim was dressed or behaving we're giving some small degree of license to the rapist. As if a male judge sends the rapist to prison, but still winks at him to say, "I might have done the same thing if I was there." The buck has to stop at the rapist, or else women need to start covering their entire body, which is the way some cultures do it.

PS- if I come across as having a feminist bias, it may be partly due to the fact that I've been treated well by women in recent years. Not just for pity's sake. .. but really valued. It has been effective against my SPS.

[retsuud]

Sessy, I think you're killing it here. I have agreed with pretty much everything you have said. I literally lol'd when you said you could just marry yourself.

I also think that we keep coming back to the important issue of perspective. The old saying, "...walk a mile in their shoes." is really old and still really true. Resolute admittedly cannot empathize with women, because he has lived all of his life as a man. Sessy came into this topic admitting that she didn't fully comprehend how damaging male penis shame can be on men. It's great that we can acknowledge what we don't fully understand about eachother, and work towards being more compassionate towards the issues that others face. It is because of this that my heart breaks for young women who are growing up and may be on the wrong side of the bell curve when it comes to weight, breast size, ass size, and looks in general. More compassion in the world is always a good thing.

I've disagreed with much of the things I've read in this discussion, mostly about who the responsibility falls on to avert sexual assault and whether women are disadvantaged(us men have to remember the perspective thing when speaking about women). I'm glad Sessy is not being scared off by the woman bashing(and minority bashing, thanks, wutty) that is unavoidable on this boards. Reading this discussion makes me happy because it seems like ideas and opinions are being shared openly and nobody is making things personal.

Very well said!!