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OK now I'm pissed.


Guest glennj
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I came across this rant and now I want to kill somebody.

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I know we're all tired of small dicks, but I feel like I need to comment on the topic because I accidentally started a bit of a shitstorm this weekend. NYCyclist wrote a great post curating badass responses to sexual harassment. Several call-backers focused on the dick size of their harassers. This reminded me of a post from a while ago, by Tadpole, arguing that we shouldn't use dick size for cheap shots; that it's a form of body snarking and thus not cool. I disagree with his position, but not so vehemently that I don't respect his right to hold it: Tadpole, I didn't mean to cause a pile-up on you. I know from experience how stressful they can be, especially when the topic is one that you have a personal stake in.

I had a busy weekend and couldn't respond to the comments (I still haven't read them all, because after Cyclist's post got mainpaged they went kind of crazy), but I'd like to say a tiny bit about my view and the reason I wrote that comment.

Because the thing is, my view isn't the weaker view that dick size disparagement is OK when a particular guy has made the conversation about his dick, it's the stronger view that dick size disparagement is OK pretty much whenever a guy is being a dick.

Many people disagree with this. The arguments are typically of one of these forms:

—You're supporting the patriarchy by implicitly endorsing the view that small dick = bad; you're saying that men are right to be so obsessed with their phalluses. As one commenter eloquently put it, "Using it as an insult is using the patriarchy to your own (very brief) personal advantage while promoting a system that disadvantages all of us."

—You're hurting innocent bystanders: good, small-dicked men will be made insecure by your perpetuation of Dick Culture.

—Reductio: If it's OK to resort to small-dick talk, it's OK to resort to racial/homophobic/etc. slurs. You know that's not OK, so....

—All body snarking is the same: If it's not OK to call a woman fat when she pisses you off, it's not OK to comment on a guy's (possible) dick size.

Here's what I think: Yeah, it's reinforcing the small dick = bad view, which is fucking central to patriarchal thought. And you know what? I don't give a shit.

Women face more violence, institutionalized cruelty, and discrimination than any living creature should have to face. It has consequences in massive amounts of fear and pain. You know, I was raped for the first time when I was 13. I've been harassed virtually every day since I was 12. I've been fired because I wouldn't sleep with my boss, after countless goodnight hugs that involved him pressing my ass against his erection. I have had to work twice as hard as my male colleagues to get the same respect. I earned respect. They came in with it. And this shit hurts. It sucks to live with fear and pain as constants in your life — and you know what? For a long time you don't even know they're there.

Men made the dick-obsessed world I live in. MEN. And it is asking too much of me, after having my life ruled by dicks, to not hit where it hurts when I want to cause hurt. And where it hurts is below the belt — and that's not my fault. I'll trade in "not reinforcing the patriarchy" for playing dirty when I want to. I think this is actually similar to fashion models reinforcing the patriarchy while earning their livelihood. You do what you have to do.

And I don't really give a shit about the bystanders. The innocent men, worried about their dick size. Guys, work it out among yourselves. Fight the obsession with phalluses. But don't make it my responsibility. I have too much else to worry about, and you have so much, SO MUCH, that I will never have, just because you got born with one of those things (small as it may be).

Now, a bunch of people jumped on the then why not use racial slurs???? bandwagon. I think this is crap. Look, making fun of a guy's possible dick size is unfair. I grant that, 100%. It's playing dirty. But it's playing dirty with an oppressors' characteristic that HE made into a sign of potency. It wasn't women who got together and decided a big dick was the closest a human person could get to omnipotency. When you use a racial slur (or homophobic, or transphobic, or fatphobic), you're playing dirty with a characteristic that belongs not to an oppressive group, but an oppressed group. I think this is a crucial difference. In both cases, you want to hit where it hurts. But in using a racial slur, you're contributing to the oppression of a group that's already been massively fucked over. And don't tell me small-dicked men form an oppressed class. Seriously, don't.

Lastly, all body snarking is not the same. I'm sure it sucks to have a small dick. You know what sucks for women? Having any body at all. There is no such thing as a good female body, and the culture will never allow us the relaxation that comes from thinking, "I'm OK. As I am, I'm OK." From infancy we're told how flawed we are; from puberty, how filthy. We're fat and gross. Our vaginas smell like tuna, supposedly, and they have hair that they shouldn't have (no hair except eyebrows and head hair, ladies. Never forget, except we probably can't after middle school). If we're skinny enough we probably don't have big enough breasts; if we're curvy we might have cankles. Thousands of girls and women are dying from eating disorders (I came close to being one of them, when I dropped to 85 lbs on a 5'8 frame).

And dick size isn't even obvious, like fat and breast size! Fuck! When we make these comments, it's so easy to NOT take them personally unless you've dropped your pants in front of us. We can't hide our breasts like you do your precious dick!

In short, I just can't feel that as a feminist I have to be a saint. When a man is a jerk, I want to be rude and unfair once in a while. I could just stick to the arguments, or educate him about how he's an ass, but sometimes I want to hit below the belt. He's the one who made, to my detriment, the dick size issue so important. So I'm going to use it against him whenever I want.

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ARGHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!

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It sounds like she got a significant amount of pushback on that position. I didn't go to that site, whatever it is, but this appears to be a weak, defiant rejoinder to a lot of negative comments from other women.

She's using her own pain and anger as an excuse to lash out any unfair way she can. But most women, even most FEMINIST women, are not carrying around that much pain and anger.

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It sounds like she got a significant amount of pushback on that position. I didn't go to that site, whatever it is, but this appears to be a weak, defiant rejoinder to a lot of negative comments from other women.

She's using her own pain and anger as an excuse to lash out any unfair way she can. But most women, even most FEMINIST women, are not carrying around that much pain and anger.

Here's the link to the rant. Most of the replies seem to agree with her.

http://groupthink.jezebel.com/you-bet-you-have-a-small-dick-1479301053/all

What I don't get is she seems to feel that because it's guys that "made the dick-obsessed world I live in" (not sure how men did that exactly) that it's OK to shame guys with small dicks. If it's the penis obsessed world she has a problem with why not shame guys with big ones too?

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I did go and find her rant, and you're right, most of the comments to her post are supportive.

But there was also this one:

-What does any of this have to do with men who struggle daily with feeling unwanted and inadequate?

The pressures our society puts on women and young girls to meet an unattainable standard of "beauty" is absolutely abhorrent. So, we should put pressure on men and young boys to have a certain desirable body? That makes no sense for anyone. Both things are bad, one thing is worse, but we should still work to end both things.

One point of empathy that you are missing: it doesn't help these troubled men that they have no control over and can never do anything about increasing their penis size, or that their shame is hidden from the world until they become intimate with someone and are at their most vulnerable. -As a feminist, do you really think it is healthy to have to "hide" your sexual organ(s) from the world out of shame?

I absolutely understand how you can be angry with the world and the horrible men that you have had to deal with. I am truly saddened reading your story, and more so seeing the lack of sympathy these horrible experiences have caused you to have. I just hope that you can realize that hurting others will never make you happier, and that it just leads to more hurt for everyone involved. At least that's my experience with hurting others out of anger.

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If you read through the replies you'll come across this post which is followed by the authors reply.

"Here's what I think: Yeah, it's reinforcing the small dick = bad view, which is fucking central to patriarchal thought. And you know what? I don't give a shit.

Ugh, I just got done having an arduous similar conversation for why this attitude is hurtful to Feminism, so I'm not getting into it again. I just think you are misguided in not caring about being sensitive to men with body image issues. Men are not a monolith. Some of us are also interested in righting all the horrible wrongs in this world. It saddens me that you share no compassion for these troubled individuals because of anger"

authors reply

"I have compassion for men with body image issues, like being fat, short, and bald. Dick size issues? Not so much.

what a cunt.

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I did go and find her rant, and you're right, most of the comments to her post are supportive.

But there was also this one:

Probably written by a guy so of course she'll dismiss it.

This one is a bit better and definitely written by a woman.

"I agree with everything you’ve written here. I love your righteous anger. I remember well when I first learned my body wasn’t OK, at the age of ten or so, that it would always be too something, and thus hated.

But I have a son, so I have a kind of buy-in to male feelings. I’m doing my best to raise him to resist patriarchy and be a decent man. It’s incredibly difficult, both to negotiate my own training in this culture of how males should act and be, and the messages he’s getting from, well, everywhere, which are so powerful. Just today he was complaining about a girl in his class that picks her nose. I said “you do that” and he said, “I’m a boy.” Cue the giant lecture, but it’s a constant battle. I'm happy to fight it.

So I’m doing my best to raise a future evolved male, and most other parents? It feels like they aren’t. Well, as a matter of fact, I know they aren’t. I have empirical evidence. So when I read a piece like yours, an utterly correct, righteous piece, it still hurts my heart a bit. How far we have to go. I know I’m rambling, but I also know that though men constructed this bullshit, painful horrible thing that is patriarchy, plenty of them suffer from it as well."

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Which was followed by the eloquent rejoinder I posted above.

yeah but like I said that reply was probably written by a man (it's hard to tell as gender is not displayed anywhere) and because it's coming from a man and not one of the hard done by women of the world his opinion won't amount to much in her eyes.

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yeah but like I said that reply was probably written by a man

Not too likely because there aren't many men participating. And the replies don't question his/her gender.

his opinion won't amount to much in her eyes.

In "her eyes"? You mean, the woman who wrote the original piece you quoted at the top? Forget her, she's a lost cause.

I'm more thinking about relatively reasonable women, noncombatants in the argument, who might read this thread.

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Here's the link to the rant. Most of the replies seem to agree with her.

http://groupthink.je...-1479301053/all

What I don't get is she seems to feel that because it's guys that "made the dick-obsessed world I live in" (not sure how men did that exactly) that it's OK to shame guys with small dicks. If it's the penis obsessed world she has a problem with why not shame guys with big ones too?

guys did not make the penis-obsessed world, just like girls did not make the skinny/big boobs world

and YES we are oppressed. she says because we are still men, we have an advantage so who cares about our dicks. couldnt the same be said about fat men? who cares that they are fat because they are still men. but she defends still against body shaming fat people? I DONT SEE THE DIFFERENCE

yes being a woman must be hard due to harrassment and etc, but women also have an advantage in some areas (being unskilled but sleeping your way to the top, get out of speeding tickets, etc etc)

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You know, I was raped for the first time when I was 13.

I think it would be unfair to assume this angry venting post and the comments it attracted represents majority opinion.

People also assume the angry posts here represent what most of us think. Look at the things some of us have written on here...referrering to women as sluts, whores, bitches, people even write here sometimes about killing women as revenge.

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Smalll, I don't care what you have to say about this article, how it made you feel, how it made your blood boil. You're going to call this woman a LIAR because she claimed she was raped and didn't react to it in the way you would expect? I still can't get my head around this. You've got no proof she's lied, that's just like me saying you are lying about having a small dick, maybe you don't want anyone hogging your 'pity me' spotlight.

For everyone else on this thread, I'd just like to put it out there, that I think this woman is out of line, in an ideal world, no form of insult should be directed to any body part of any sex, and nobody should be propelling the opinion that it is acceptable.

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Anyone, with any form of logical insight, can deduce that there is a strong likelihood that this woman is lying about one, or several of her experiences. Since it's obviously gone over your head, you're forced to take her word for it. I on the other hand, see the discrepancies clearly, and stand by my judgement.

I didn't say she was lying because laid claims to being raped, as you wrongly concluded, I suggested that she could be a pathological liar since the list of her hard-dealings seem implicitly illogical. Since you're unable to understand the statements in my post, it's of no surprise that you were also unable to read between hers.

I'm far from an idiot, thank you very much. You're absolutely welcome to disregard my opinion, as is anyone else. But your eagerness to insult me whilst failing to comprehend a simple statement, leads me to believe that if one of us is bound by the blissful shackles of idiocy, it's probably you.

I love that you think you can hide behind your words, your eloquent way of speaking. You can't. I understood your statement, and possibly, because of my anger, my message wasn't particularly clear. You're willing to regard this woman as a pathological liar, because you find it difficult to believe that she has experienced all of these things, because you've never faced this much sexual harassment in your life. I'm not saying that as an attack on you, it's human nature, we can't comprehend how one person can suffer so much, so we don't believe it, it becomes a lie. Nor am I saying this woman isn't lying, because I personally can't imagine she has been sexually abused every day since the age of twelve, I think it's a typical feminist thing to say, how oppressed she is by men and so on. But that doesn't make her a liar.

If I'm honest, it wasn't your comment in particular that enraged me, I took snippets from all comments which grew into a big ball of anger and yours happened to be about this woman being a liar because she claims she was raped. Come to really think about it, your opinion is yours, it doesn't effect me, and you weren't actually saying what I initially said you were saying. But, for the sake of this conversation, I still think you're wrong, and mostly because you assume you're right. We all assume we're right, but because you offended me, you're the ass.

You're right, I'm a fucking idiot. And I think I'm losing my mind.

But, I shall enjoy my blissful shackles of idiocy.

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you know petperson, not to upset you, but how can you say:

Nor am I saying this woman isn't lying, because I personally can't imagine she has been sexually abused every day since the age of twelve, I think it's a typical feminist thing to say, how oppressed she is by men and so on. But that doesn't make her a liar.

and still get upset with him or "offended" when he doesn't believe her either?

But, for the sake of this conversation, I still think you're wrong, and mostly because you assume you're right. We all assume we're right, but because you offended me, you're the ass.

again, i'm not attacking you or anything.

take care.

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Knew I shouldn't have used that quote about rape. People are quick tempered about this kind of subject.

Regardless of whether the poster lied or not, she's representative of people that are being unreasonable and rude because they're angry and hateful; I just wanted to make the point that it might be better not to take people like this too seriously, both here and elsewhere.

If I'm wrong and most feminists do think this way, then perhaps it's best to avoid feminist websites in general.

we can't comprehend how one person can suffer so much, so we don't believe it, it becomes a lie.

PetPerson, if I understand correctly what you were trying to say then I agree with you it's difficult to see other peoples viewpoints, this is a problem for both men and women.

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