...

[Resolute]

there's nothing good about my life, nor will there ever be.

[m.allen]

...

[malign]

"there's nothing good about my life, nor will there ever be."

Isn't it the "nor will there ever be" where there remains some doubt?

I had similar thoughts. For several years. I thought and I thought until I was convinced there was no way out.

Luckily, I found out I was wrong.

I had to be alive to find out, though.

[Resolute]

thanks for all your concern, positivity, and optimism, m.allen, but i don't think you interpreted my post correctly (or perhaps i wasn't clear). the truth of the matter is my life has sucked royally since birth, and i've spent all my life trying to find a way (even if only an imaginable way) to fix it, with absolutely no success. i literally have no options except to exist in pain for several more decades, or end my misery myself, asap. needless to say, living in misery for another 50-60 years isn't in any way acceptable or bearable.

keep in mind that this isn't a decision based on impulse or temporary depression etc., i've been suicidal most of my "life", and now (soon) is the time to act.

another thing to keep in mind is that i consider most of my problems to not be my fault (80%-90%), and unfixable. some of them are changeable, but none are fixable.

[Resolute]

"there's nothing good about my life, nor will there ever be."

1- Isn't it the "nor will there ever be" where there remains some doubt?

2- I had similar thoughts. For several years. I thought and I thought until I was convinced there was no way out.

3- Luckily, I found out I was wrong.

I had to be alive to find out, though.

1- doubt for whom? you or me? i have no doubt.

2- fortunately (or unfortunately) i am rarely wrong when i'm super convinced of something. i use the process of elimination, sort of like: "Once you eliminate the impossible, whatever remains, no matter how improbable, must be the truth.".

3- i'm happy for you malign, but i've given it three decades {i think that's more than generous for someone of my intelligence (i don't mean to seem arrogant)}, and i'm unwilling to try my -lack of- luck at another three -or more- decades, just because some people think that there might be be a one in a billion chance that i'd be happy or content one day (with my luck, that would happen a few days before i die, lol).

i know you guys mean well, but i've made peace with the idea, and i'll probably make an announcement and say my goodbyes in the next couple of weeks.

[mts]

there's nothing good about my life, nor will there ever be.

If you don't mind saying, what good things are missing, specifically?

i've made peace with the idea, and i'll probably make an announcement and say my goodbyes in the next couple of weeks.

[Resolute]

If you don't mind saying, what good things are missing, specifically?

in random order:

wealth (completely broke), health (physical and psychological), looks, sex, love, companionship, status, respect, dignity (lost what was left of my dignity and pride), success, etc..

it's not just the absence of these things, but the impossibility of ever attaining them. to be extremely ambitious and have absolutely nothing, is more painful than i can describe.

[mts]

Is there any one (or few) of those things which if you had it you wouldn't need the others?

Am I right in thinking that without some of those things you don't have the desire to accomplish the others? Is it a lack of motivation in that sense - or is there more to it? If it's ok to ask, how much are the physical problems getting in the way?

I hope it's ok for me to ask these questions, if not just tell me to "pipe down" as victimf once said.

[Resolute]

1- Is there any one (or few) of those things which if you had it you wouldn't need the others?

2- Am I right in thinking that without some of those things you don't have the desire to accomplish the others? Is it a lack of motivation in that sense - or is there more to it? 3- If it's ok to ask, how much are the physical problems getting in the way?

4- I hope it's ok for me to ask these questions, if not just tell me to "pipe down" as victimf once said.

1- no, but some are not as important as the others. companionship & love for instance, i can live without if i had to, but i still want them though. and the rest are all musts.

2- there's some truth to your assumption, but it's more complicated than that, and beyond the scope of this forum.

3- physical health problems? in preventing from attaining my goals, less than some other factors, but they do add to my suffering significantly.

4- i don't mind.

[Guest Klingsor]

.

[Resolute]

I really do feel your pain resolute. I know exactly how this feels, and I wrestle with these issues every day. I wish there was something I could do, because that would mean both our lives would be better.

thanks man.

[m.allen]

...

[Resolute]

wow m. you demonstrated a lot of caring in that post, which is another reason you shouldn't kill yourself.

i respond in so much detail only because i love discussing/debating, and have nothing better to do:

This is sad news resolute. 1- You seem to be very intelligent and kind, and this world could use more people like you.

2- Do you have any family or close friends? There must be some people who you love and love you back -this alone is worth living for.

3- I know you said companionship and love were lower priorities, but maybe they should be higher? Companionship doesn't have to mean a romantic relationship, maybe it can just mean a good friend?

4- Success is a strange concept. I think this is too often used in a professional or wealth sense. Success can be measured in many facets; relationships, spirituality, courage, strength of will, growth, etc. 5- It sounds like you are frustrated and exhausted from battling this for so long. That's completely understandable. But there must be some approach you haven't tried yet. 6- Perhaps measuring success in a different way could give you a new direction?

7- I really feel like you are putting yourself through hell when you don't have to. You are trying to live up these high standards to attain this huge list of good things that you think are missing in your life.

For example, I have seen slums in Thailand first hand and then what westerners claim is poor. Wealth, like many things, is all relative. The majority of 'poor' people here in Canada still have clean drinking water, electricity, food, etc. I think the only reason someone feels poor is if those around them are rich. But suddenly if your tiny apartment is situated in the middle of a slum where all the houses are made of tin, you'd feel wealthy. -What I'm trying to say is, comparing yourself to others is a misleading trap that we all fall into at times. Maybe even comparing yourself now to how you wish you could be is one too? By no means should doing that kill your ambition, but it also shouldn't diminish your perception of yourself. Maybe you are lacking many good things that you wish to have right now, but maybe there are many things you have now that don't come into your consideration because your perception of where you should be is so high?

Not sure if that made sense...

8- Anyway, I would recommend the book 'You are not your brain' which I am reading now. It illustrates how people can fall into thinking errors and how they can be corrected through neuroplasticity. I'm not sure, but I think you might be falling into one now. I know I am guilty of falling into them all the time, many people are.

9- I think you should give yourself a chance! You've got nothing to lose by giving it a shot.

10- I hope you get through this and I do believe you can.

11- All the best resolute.

1- unfortunately, this world was meant for stupid, ignorant, insensitive and heartless people, and has no place for someone like me. (i don't mean that those who choose to live necessarily have any of the aforementioned traits, but those who don't will struggle tremendously, unless they're extremely lucky.)

2- believe it or not, i don't have anyone who loves me enough, or whom i love enough, to make even one day "worth living".

3- once the amount of misery and suffering exceeds a certain point, a good friend simply won't be enough to counterbalance that.

4- i don't have any success in any area, and by any meaning of the word 'success'.

5- yes, completely frustrated and exhausted, precisely. i'm too exhausted to keep seeking and 'trying' anymore 'approaches'.

6-

a- refer to #4.

b- i've tried living in delusion, it doesn't work for everyone, specially people like me.

7- that did make sense, and it could be your best argument yet, but i'm still gonna dispute it. i've been to a few countries, and seen documentaries etc., so i do have an idea of different living conditions around the world. i can not tolerate a slum, nor can i be a nobody anywhere in the world, in any social class. the problem is that my mind is at one level, and all other aspects of me and my life are at a completely different -and extremely lower- level. i can't elevate them to anywhere near the level of my brain, nor am i able to lower my intellect to anywhere near their level. do you see my dilemma?

8- maybe a couple of years ago i would've given this -or any other- book a go, but at this point, i'm very inflexible and not at all interested in 'plasticity' etc..

9- i lose 'resting' time by delaying my death for yet more ineffective attempts at changing my life.

10- i'm sorry, but i'll disappoint you, just as i have everyone else.

11- i appreciate that, thank you.

again, please don't mistake my responses for ingratefulness, because i sincerely value and appreciate your input, as well as the input of others.

good luck to you as well, m.

[m.allen]

...

[IrmaJean]

[Resolute]

I'm sorry you feel that way resolute.

But I did notice one thing I think you should consider. Before, you used the quote:

"Once you eliminate the impossible, whatever remains, no matter how improbable, must be the truth."

and then you stated that:

"but at this point, i'm very inflexible and not at all interested in 'plasticity'" and "i'm too exhausted to keep seeking and 'trying' anymore 'approaches"

Isn't that one possibility that you have yet to eliminate? What if you are selling yourself short on something? On the ultimate thing?

I feel like I can imagine how exhausting it must be....

that's actually a nice observation, but the truth of the matter is that if we wanna be literal, there are infinite possibilities that i have yet to eliminate; the problem however, is that it would take roughly 27,582,631 years (give or take) for me to eliminate all imaginable possibilities, and i'm sure you, and everyone else realize that i don't have that kind of time. so i eliminated all that one could eliminate in a few decades, and also systematically eliminated approaches that are similar to those (to save time), and decided to leave the rest for future generations. let's be honest, what good is any solution gonna do me (assuming i find one) when i'm 84 years old? i never got to experience even one day of 'youth' like a normal human being should!!!! do you how much that hurts? to see your "life" and your "youth" being burned one second at a time, right before your eyes? now if i had made all the bad choices, that's one thing, but i really don't regret much of what i've done since adolescence, considering what seemed right at the time, and taking my ability and capacity into account. so it's not like i can start making better choices. i've always tried to choose the best option available, yet the outcomes have consistently been the worst possible outcomes (maybe not the worst, but really crappy outcomes, nonetheless). it's only logical to assume -based on all my personal experience- that that would continue to be the case for as long as i "live".

i really doubt that anyone can get back their youth, or change any past events, so what's the point? work on having less crappy golden years? i'll pass, thank you very much.

...I've spent the last year and a half often doubting and reassuring myself, carrying heavy fears and burdens, and not feeling like I was even remotely close to acting how I wanted to or being who I wanted to be. You, like me, have been carrying this weight. But then, with regards to my concerns, you and others are telling me 1+1=2 even though I doubt it greatly. Everyone else here and me are telling you now that 1+1=2 and you are doubting it as well. Even those who are really intelligent make mistakes and fall into faulty logic. I have heard that intelligent people are more prone to issues like OCD, and probably depression too. Much like in the movie A Beautiful Mind, there are flaws even in great minds. I could be wrong, but I think the nature of your brain is predisposed to think negatively. Mine seems to be predisposed to doubt. It's just how it is, but the brain, as I was alluding to with that book, is malleable in how it can be wired. It's not dumbing yourself down to be happy, it's creating new pathways in your brain to interpret the same data through a different perspective -maybe like how shrooms or mdma change perspective. I don't think this is deluding yourself either. Much of the world is subjective. Simply, is the glass half full or half empty? Or is it both? Can you say either person is deluded for thinking the glass is half full or empty? It's just a matter of interpretation.

the glass being half full, or half empty are essentially the same thing, contrary to popular belief. it's more clear when the glass is completely empty; no one can rationally dispute its absolute emptiness.

shrooms change one's perspective? seriously? they cause hallucinations and delusions, literally. either way, i don't believe in perspectives, or 'truths'. something is either true or it's not. something either exists, or it doesn't. sure people might disagree on something, but only one of their perspectives (if any) will be true, and the rest will all be false (maybe different percentages/degrees of falseness, but still false).

to tell you the truth, i divide my dreams/goals into two categories a- things that are too shallow and beneath truly great men, but i still want them, and a big part of me doesn't want that desire to change. b- things that are crucial and even saints probably need/want them, and 99.9999% doesn't want to "change perspective" on this category.

I don't think you'll come to a sudden realization and all these burdens will be lifted. But I think if you give yourself a chance, which you so badly deserve, you can come out of this fog. I hope I haven't been to aggressive with this post, I'm just hoping to give you another perspective on things, shake things up a bit. No one knows what will happen when we die, maybe it's just nothing -like before we were born. Maybe it's heaven or hell. Maybe something else entirely. But I have heard that if you commit suicide, the Bible says you'll go to hell. I'm not sure if Christianity is right or not, but in this crazy world, it might be. And that is a big chance to take. You might be thinking you are shedding all your problems in this life only to wake up to worse ones.

i won't get into religion, but i've considered the possibility of hell, and i'm willing to risk it. i truly believe hell would be a walk in the park for me, after what i've been through in this superhell.

and no, your post wasn't aggressive.

I hope we can keep this dialogue open before you decide to do anything. You owe it to yourself. All the best and be strong.

no one enjoys a good discussion more than me.

But I think if you give yourself a chance, which you so badly deserve, you can come out of this fog.

i wanna ask anyone who talks about 'giving yourself a chance', or 'hope', or 'not giving up', or any such concepts, a simple question; why is dying, or choosing to die, or killing yourself, bad/wrong/etc.? if anyone can answer that for me without resorting to commonly accepted religious beliefs (or misconceptions), i'd be grateful. and if anyone can back it up with irrefutable logic, i'd be pretty darn impressed as well.

needless to say, all contributions and inputs are appreciated, and thank you all for putting up with me.

[Guest Klingsor]

.

[Resolute]

I can so relate to all this. I really don't know why we quarreled when I first came here because I couldn't have worded these statements any better myself. The first paragraph in particular is exactly the same conclusions I've reached now for myself. It's really just what psychologists call "learned helplessness", and it is NOT an irrational fear or behavior. It's "learned" because you have experienced so many failures in the pursuit of what you thought was the best decision or strategy at the time, you made all the "right" choices. Eventually you reach a point where you just avoid all challenges and absolutely cringe when you're forced to face something because you already know how it's going to turn out. Most people do not understand this, it's almost as if the game of life is rigged.

for me, that is just half the story; the other half is my great ambition, which can only cause pain, suffering, misery, and disappointed, if god (or universe) doesn't cooperate in any way, and instead goes out of his way to hinder/stop/block/impede any attempt i have at anything. that said, i still wouldn't wanna be a content/happy ignoramus.

I know your dilemma intimately, resolute. I'm at the point now where I don't care about anything, but it's not like most people who stop caring about the outcome, I've stopped caring about trying. My perspective has not changed nor has the truth changed, it's just that I've stopped caring about my inability to do anything about it.

i don't know whether that's a positive or negative development. either way, i hope things turn out better for you than they did for me.

[Resolute]

i forgot to address this part:

...It's really just what psychologists call "learned helplessness", and it is NOT an irrational fear or behavior. It's "learned" because you have experienced so many failures in the pursuit of what you thought was the best decision or strategy at the time, you made all the "right" choices. Eventually you reach a point where you just avoid all challenges and absolutely cringe when you're forced to face something because you already know how it's going to turn out. Most people do not understand this, it's almost as if the game of life is rigged.

....

it is rigged, make no mistake about it. anyone who believes otherwise is blissfully unaware.

[m.allen]

...

[malign]

I wouldn't use the word "wrong" at all, because it assumes some ethical frame of reference for what that word means (and that we share that frame, which I can't assume either.)

Simply, death is a guarantee of no future possibilities. Your image of life is only an assumption of no future possibilities, based as you said on an incomplete exploration of the possibility space. To me, that's the important difference; you need not agree.

[Resolute]

i'll try to keep this post as short and sweet as possible.

I'm sure you'll be able to logically strip this down and debate each aspect of it, but where is that really going to get you?

it might not get me anywhere, but i wouldn't be fooling myself.

so let's start, shall we?

If you are not dying for a cause, or not because you deserve it, then no good can come of it. In fact, it is an inherently selfish move. If you can empathize with how your mother or father or siblings or friends would feel after, then you know that this is going to harm them. Personally, I know how devastated my mom would be if I killed myself, and how someone (like my mom for example) in that situation can't help but blame themselves in some respect. Moreover, what 'good' can killing yourself bring You? An end to all bad? Well, it's an end to all bad and all good and everything. There is no conduit to experience the end of all bad or all good. There is just nothing left, so the no-bad is happening to no-one. Death isn't an escape if there's just nothing after. It's simply just nothingness. No relief or 'rest'. Nothing. Yes you don't have problems anymore if you're dead, but you don't have anything at all if you're dead. there isn't even a 'you' to be dead. --That is one possibility. Another is going to hell. If hell is as described it's worse than anything you can interpret as 'superhell' while alive. For sure, there might be other possibilities, but banking on something better in death is an illogical move as there is no convincing grounds on which to assume it would be better.

Whereas to live, to live there is possibility. You have even admitted that there's almost endless possibility here while living.

'nothingness' is my ultimate goal/dream/wish; to completely stop existing, period. of course i would've greatly appreciated not being created un the first place. it would've saved me -and others- much time and agony. though, i know that most people can't understand this.

i promised to keep this short, so i won't address the "how others would (supposedly) feel in the event of my demise" .

and you need to remember that i never consented to being created (brought into this shithole), or to live for others, selflessly.

I think you said you wanted to be a 'great man', but what is 'greatness'? I can tell you what it isn't. It isn't letting setbacks in life steamroll you into giving up. I feel for you resolute. Life is so incredibly difficult and maybe you've been dealt a bad hand several times. Maybe even regularly. But if you truly want to be great then you have to overcome the odds. Life has backed you into a corner, but suicide would not be the response of a great man. I think you sense your greatness. And I think you owe it to THAT to give yourself a TRUE chance to be great. To truly open your mind to possibility that greatness can be achieved by you. And that maybe greatness doesn't always have to be in the conventional sense of some political figure, inventor, sports star, or wall street businessman. Maybe greatness is the quiet hero in the neighbourhood that watches over people, shovels a neighbours driveway in the winter, helps an elderly lady with her groceries or buys a homeless man a coffee. Greatness doesn't have to be some big achievement or some extravagant lifestyle Hollywood has sold us on. Well get all this crap thrown at us our whole lives through the media and entertainment, but I bet if you gave an honest look within yourself you could see that a lot of this is illusory. Rich people and famous people still commit suicide. Why is that? I think it's because life is more than just your bank account.

i think you should reread my post; i never said i wanted to be a great man.

I think life more than anything is about fulfillment and people mistakenly think money is a means to find that. When honestly, I think fulfillment is just about loving yourself and others and having others love you back.

even if 'loving' myself was possible, it would take way more time than i can possibly have on this cesspool of a planet, and is therefor a pointless pursuit.

also i'm not interested in loving anyone, or anyone loving me back. trust me, it rarely ends well.

I've heard it said, something like, our greatest fear is not that we are powerless, but that we are powerful beyond our own measure. I know you have the power to get out of this trap that circumstance, predispositions and negativity has put you in. I think if you stop trying to dismantle all other views and genuinely open your mind to them you can come to a new perspective. My friend told me once that most people listen to debates just trying to find more reasons to believe what they already have decided to believe in. They don't actually listen to the debate for that it actually is and open their mind to the possibility that they could be wrong. Maybe in this respect you have found the double-edged sword that is intelligence. Sometimes it can work against you. For ex. Hitler was arguably brilliant, but his intelligence was fuelled by a terrible belief-system, and I have a feeling that his intelligence was so brilliant that it was able to rationalize the decimation of Jews. -not saying you are hitler haha, but that is just an extreme example of how what can seem rational can be supported 'logically'.

Maybe you are right and there is an objective truth. But maybe you are wrong in how you are interpreting your life too. You could be missing this objective truth that suicide is not the answer.

i agree that intelligence can be a curse, which seems to be the case in my case.

i submit that i could be missing the objective truth, but i maintain that it would take eons to find that objective truth, and i'm too tired to keep searching that long. and there's no guarantee that i'd 'like' that objective truth once i find it (if i find it). so again, it's pointless.

In my opinion, I think you are wrong in this. But, 1- unfortunately, there are ultimately no guarantees in life and holes in almost any argument can be found. I'm sure you'll be able to logically strip this down and debate each aspect of it, but where is that really going to get you?

2- Happiness is a state of mind, not a Ferrari or a Nobel Peace Prize.

1- that's the problem, and it's unacceptable for me to be asked (by anyone, even god) to do something (anything) without clear guarantees.

2- even if i don't take that to mean 'living in delusion', it would still require an unknown number of years to achieve (if ever), and like i said, i'm too tired.

You can be happy resolute.

maybe, but certainly not in this lifetime.

[Resolute]

I wouldn't use the word "wrong" at all, because it assumes some ethical frame of reference for what that word means (and that we share that frame, which I can't assume either.)

Simply, death is a guarantee of no future possibilities. Your image of life is only an assumption of no future possibilities, based as you said on an incomplete exploration of the possibility space. To me, that's the important difference; you need not agree.

malign, you've made many such statements, in many different threads, and i think it's time i made you reassess that line of reasoning.

you're claiming that there are no possibilities after death, when you have absolutely nothing to back it up with. how do you know there are no possibilities there? have you ever been dead? have you spoken to anyone who is dead? did god tell you (or an angel)? you're the one who's making assumptions my friend. at least my conclusions (which you call 'assumptions') are based on actually living (so to speak) in this lifetime for over thirty years, whereas you've never been to the afterlife for even a nanosecond.

now, had you said: "death is a guarantee of no future possibilities in this life", then that would be completely true and accurate, and that's the whole point of suicide.

[m.allen]

...

[Resolute]

@m, i'm touched that you care enough to still be trying to "save" me.

But how do you know you're not living in delusion right now?

i don't. but if i am, then i have been doing so my whole life, and there's nothing to suggest that that will ever change, unless i kill myself, and 'wake up' from this nightmare.

You don't know that happiness or a new perspective is going to take you years to attain, and you don't know that it won't be worth it once you do.

i do know, just like i know i will never win the lottery, or find a magic lamp, or get superpowers, or find a treasure,....

logical possibilities are infinite, but practical/realistic possibilities are a completely different matter. none the things i mentioned above are logically impossible, but they're extremely improbable in our current existence.

as i've stated in a previous post:

it's unacceptable for me to be asked (by anyone, even god) to do something (anything) without clear guarantees.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Maybe you should talk to someone who's attempted suicide and lived and turned their life around? It might help to gain some perspective.

that's an insult to my intelligence, but i know you didn't mean to insult my intelligence.

What do you truly want out of life, at the very basic bottom of everything? What would be the true root of happiness for you?

same as everyone else. to be eternally young, healthy, virile, attractive (heartthrob), rich, playboy, successful, etc., without ever worrying of losing any of it.

in closing, i wanna add something:

would you ever tell someone with a terminal illness, and in excruciating physical pain, with no chance of cure/recovery (according to drs), that he could 'turn his life around' if he really wanted? please don't tell me that's different, because you don't know the hell in which i am, and have always been.