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Resolute
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how is it that some people see this world as good and beautiful, when it clearly isn't so? do we live in the same world? on the same planet? the same planet that has very little to offer other than pain, suffering, misery, injustice, oppression, corruption, disease, famine, starvation, malnutrition, ignorance/stupidity, homelessness, poverty, cruelty, terrorism, murder, rape, lies, deceit/deception, betrayal, greed, selfishness, hypocrisy, wars, genocides, racism, destruction, indignity, theft, scams, job insecurity, financial instability, constant turmoil/uncertainty/worrying/stress, pollution, disputes, divorce, orphancy, single parenting, and much much more?

do i need cognitive reframing, or do those with the opposing view?

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The world isn't perfect, it's full of things we perceive as good and bad. I think looking at it honestly is the right perspective to have and that is to acknowledge all the bad and all the good. I'm not sure, but I feel like you easily identify the bad and have a hard time identifying good.

You can walk into your apartment and see the chipped paint on the walls and think 'that looks terrible, it will cost money to fix, I'm so poor I can't fix it and I live in a tiny apartment, I feel like a loser for living in a tiny apartment.'

or

'it's good to be home, I'm glad I have a place to hang my hat, others aren't as fortunate as I am, I've learned a lot and made some good memories here'

not sure how good an example that is.. haha. but basically what I'm saying is both could be true but just taking half the perspective isn't a whole view of everything.

It's easy to fall into negative thinking. When I was wondering if I deserved to live or not my therapist asked me to list all the bad things I'd done - easy. she then asked me to list all the good things - couldn't think of more than 2 or so. obviously there was way more, but I was so used to putting myself down that it was actually had for me to think positively about myself. still is.

The truth is the best perspective, in my opinion. and the truth is not just seeing all the bad things in the world, but all the good too.

For me, I don't want to pretend the bad aspects of life aren't there, but I'd rather focus on the good aspects and make efforts to eliminate bad ones for myself and others. Life is neither heaven nor hell, it just is what it is and I think simply; life is what you make of it.

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i think you're missing my point in a big way. i never said there wasn't 'any' good in the world, or that i was unable to see or identify it, i merely meant that the good was about one millionth of the bad, which to me, is unacceptable.

the same planet that has very little to offer other than....

the good becomes increasingly difficult to see when it's so overwhelmed and smothered by all the bad/evil.

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I think there are positive aspects of the world. (edit: thoughtless remark, sorry)

pain, suffering, misery, injustice, oppression, corruption, disease, famine, starvation, malnutrition, ignorance/stupidity, homelessness, poverty, cruelty, terrorism, murder, rape, lies, deceit/deception, betrayal, greed, selfishness, hypocrisy, wars, genocides, racism, destruction, indignity, theft, scams, job insecurity, financial instability, constant turmoil/uncertainty/worrying/stress, pollution, disputes, divorce, orphancy, single parenting,

What about;

Pleasure, thriving, happiness, justice, inclusion, revolution, science, farming, charity, doctors, education/intelligence, shelters, enough, kindness, diplomacy, protection, awareness, truth, honesty/sincerity, trust, generosity, selflessness, consistence, peace, humanity, acceptance, restoration, dignity, security, wisdom, preparation, resilience, calmness/perseverance/self-assurance/relaxation, innovation, understanding, self-reliance, adoption, benefits.

For job-insecurity, orphancy/parenting and a couple of others I have no idea so I just guessed. No offence.

Disclaimer...etc...

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sorry res for misinterpreting you there.

i do think that you are putting way to much weight on bad aspects of life and not enough on good, though you might see it differently. I doubt that we can objectively say there is more bad than good or more good than bad. I think, both exist and then it's a subjective matter of ascribing value to either one.

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It may be useful to consider what you're calling "the world".

What you seem to be describing is human behavior, mostly. Then the thing you'd be referring to would seem to be more "society", or possibly "humanity", if you intend to include even small numbers of like-minded humans. Or am I missing some part of your point?

If I'm not too far off, maybe you would benefit from spending some time outdoors, in nature, away from people? The world, as I see it, is much larger than humanity, and though we may end up altering it enough to kill ourselves off, it will (probably) still be there. Certainly, the universe beyond will be. Those might be places to anchor yourself when you start to feel overwhelmed by humanity.

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@m.allen, i disagree.

@mts, no need to apologize.

@malign, you make a good point by differentiating between society/humans and 'the world'. the problem is, though, that 'nature' and 'the outdoors' can only do so much for me, i can't exist as a hermit, or nomad, or 'tarzan'. not to mention that i don't actually have access to any real nature where i live. as much as i hate to admit it, i need society, specially women ;) , but unfortunately they're doing just fine without me.

you can't really separate society/humans from the world, they're sort of inseparable, in ways.

i also have no access to nature where i live.

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Do you have a sky? No parks at all? You may not be able to eliminate human artifacts from your nature contemplation, but it's still there, beyond what we do.

I tend to agree that we need other humans. I suggest that you take them individually rather than collectively, though, and probably they will appreciate that consideration as well.

This is a fairly difficult discussion, actually, because under the guise of an intellectual question, it's really a series of beliefs. First, there's your specific definition of good and evil, and then there's your perception about their relative prevalence.

Cognitive reframing isn't brainwashing; it isn't intended to change beliefs arbitrarily, by authority. It's a technique that a person uses to change their own negative thoughts, but only after having realized that those negative thoughts aren't necessarily true and are damaging the person's life. No one imposes the change from outside, or would suggest that you "should" do that because "we" say so.

So I guess I don't know the answer to "How is it that people see life differently from each other?" Is there yet another belief implied, that only one way of seeing it is "right"? Maybe all the many points of view that have been expressed throughout the ages about what are good and evil and why do they exist are useful, at least to the extent of providing insight into other people's ways of thinking.

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When I first started therapy, I had some very rigid thoughts about the word "selfish." In my mind, I would punish myself as soon as I felt good about doing something kind, viewing the good feelings as selfish and being selfish to me back then and especially with loved ones was completely unacceptable. I could never be that or if there was any remote possibility, I would feel deep anger toward myself. I have been able to amend my thoughts about this somewhat and know now that it is okay to accept the good feelings as part of what happens when I am kind or giving. Really all I did was loosen my rigidity about the meaning of and the use of the word and the negative connotations I had formed in my mind. I allowed for some gray to enter the picture. I think of it as expanding my views and not closing off other thoughts about my views.

CBT may be something that helps or doesn't help for each individual, but there are other modalities that may be a better fit for an individual as well. I think psychodynamic personally helped me the most, but each person is different and has different needs.

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I'm not denigrating anything that might help someone. But I think resolute and I are wired similarly when it comes to this issue, or maybe we aren't. I just know for me the thing that would help me most, the one thing I want most of all, is to know WHY. Why was I made this way? Why am I me and not someone else? More than anything else, I need answers. It's the not knowing that drives me nuts.

sorry for quoting you klingsor, since you'll wanna delete it later, but it had to be done.

knowing sure would help me too, i'd probably be able to tolerate all this crap (and much more) indefinitely, i f i knew the wisdom behind it. but obviously that would never happen here (in this lifetime), but hopefully i would get some answers elsewhere.

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I like to know the whys too. I feel some comfort in understanding even when I can't change some things. In the same regard, others may not find whys to be helpful. I never thought of it as why was I made this way, though, so much as how did I get to the place I'm in now and what made and makes me the person I am today? I think there is a lot at play: biology, genetic tendencies, environment, experience, and those very important first relationships where we develop our attachment styles. Bringing self to awareness. I thought the process itself in therapy was kind of cool, so that interest in and of itself tempered some of the painful response I may have had to new information. I'm still discovering who and why I am who I am. I still feel the ability to adjust that when there is a need, but to try to accept myself too...it's not an easy task for sure.

I wish you both healing.

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I agree too we need other humans but I think it's helpful to have nature as a second home.

(If that makes any sense.)

i really love and can truly appreciate nature, if i had something in my life, in other words, nature is a great addition to an already good life; otherwise nature can't really fix a miserable existence by itself, not for me anyway.

Edited by resolute
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how would define a 'good life' res?

a 'good' life is something between 'tolerable' and 'great'. so in short (in order of importance):

1- being more or less irresistible to women (while still young and virile).

2 & 3 (interchangeably) - reasonable health. reasonable wealth.

so as you can see, #1, which is the most important to me, is pretty much no longer possible (nor did i ever get to experience it in the past), since i'm already over the hill, and will only continue to decline as time goes by. that makes the other two (and everything else) irrelevant.

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