what is manliness?

[Resolute]

Lantrier & @Lantrier, ok, i see.

[Resolute]

8 minutes ago, Victimorthecrime said:

How an adult male could not feel sexual sensation while in contact w a female is beyond my comprehension....

haven't you heard of homosexuals lol?

[Victimorthecrime]

1 hour ago, Resolute said:

being a determinist, i would only replace "decide" with "deduce" to avoid confusion, only because "decide" may imply some sort of actual choice or freedom (specially in this sentence: "each person must decide for themselves what they are willing to do or not do" (due to the absence of "can" or "able" etc.).

I'll have to take your word for it. You guys have me curious about determinism and I read some about it. It sounds to me that determinism is saying I can only be influenced, never an influencer. How can I solely be at the mercy of cause and effect when those prior causes are all just other idiots like me?  Furthermore how could anyone ever really know?  Hasn't science demonstrated that randomness and chance exist in the world?  I could be wrong about that but I got these statements: 

"Since modern quantum physics shows that the universe is indeterministic, with profound effects on microscopic processes at the atomic scale. 

Belief in strict determinism, in the face of physical evidence for indeterminism, is only tenable today for dogmatic philosophy."

From here: http://www.informationphilosopher.com/freedom/determinism.html

[Resolute]

51 minutes ago, Victimorthecrime said:

I'll have to take your word for it. You guys have me curious about determinism and I read some about it. It sounds to me that determinism is saying I can only be influenced, never an influencer. How can I solely be at the mercy of cause and effect when those prior causes are all just other idiots like me? 

on the contrary, determinism asserts that everything is both influenced and an influencer. we're links in an infinite chain of cause and effect.

 

Quote

Furthermore how could anyone ever really know?  Hasn't science demonstrated that randomness and chance exist in the world?  I could be wrong about that but I got these statements: 

"Since modern quantum physics shows that the universe is indeterministic, with profound effects on microscopic processes at the atomic scale. 

Belief in strict determinism, in the face of physical evidence for indeterminism, is only tenable today for dogmatic philosophy."

From here: http://www.informationphilosopher.com/freedom/determinism.html

if quantum mechanics had actually proven indeterminism, then stephen hawking (and even einstein) should be the first to abandon and denounce determinism.

what you quoted is the local interpretation of quantum mechanics. there are also non-local interpretations which are deterministic:

Quote

The de Broglie–Bohm or "pilot wave" theories form a class of interpretations of quantum mechanics based on a theory of Louis de Broglie later extended by David Bohm. Particles, which always have positions, are guided by the wavefunction. The wavefunction evolves according to the Schrödinger wave equation, and the wavefunction never collapses. The theory takes place in a single space-time, is non-local, and is deterministic. The simultaneous determination of a particle's position and velocity is subject to the usual uncertainty principle constraint. The theory is considered to be a hidden variable theory, and by embracing non-locality it satisfies Bell's inequality. The measurement problem is resolved, since the particles have definite positions at all times.[63] The appearance of collapse is explained as phenomenological.[64]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interpretations_of_quantum_mechanics

moreover, regardless of what science "proves", true randomness, chance, spontaneity, chaos, etc., are logical impossibilities (due to the principle of sufficient reason). these represent indeterminism, which is the antipode of determinism. clearly, they cannot apply to the same object at the same time and in the same respect (principle of no contradiction), nor can they both be inapplicable to that object at the same time and in the same respect (principle of excluded middle). in other words, when considering any element (such as the tiniest subatomic particle possible), it can either be entirely deterministic or entirely indeterministic (if the principle of sufficient reason didn't exist, or if we reject it as some do). there is no other logical possibility.

consider this question: is indeterminism any better than determinism? i mean can you honestly say that indeterministic choices entail actual responsibility and accountability to an individual? in other words, are indeterministic (truly random) choices actual choices?

neither science nor "god" have the power to defy logic. logic (or at least a logical principle) is more powerful than "god" even if he does exist.

[Victimorthecrime]

Ok interesting stuff, I have more reading to do on this subject. 

One question that comes to mind is if the world was deterministic: structured, logical, would it not be a better place than it in fact is?  I equate rational with good because truth is good. 

[Resolute]

3 minutes ago, Victimorthecrime said:

Ok interesting stuff, I have more reading to do on this subject. 

One question that comes to mind is if the world was deterministic: structured, logical, would it not be a better place than it in fact is?  I equate rational with good because truth is good. 

the sad truth is, v, that logically, truth and rationality aren't necessarily good (positive) . you've heard of phrases like "the ugly truth", "bitter truth", "harsh reality" and so on.

this is actually one of the things that really disturbs me, when i concluded that justice, fairness, positive outcomes, etc., are not logical necessities. they could still happen, i guess, but who the fuck knows. and it does seem unlikely (i can come up with a couple of theories/arguments to support that).

[Resolute]

@Victimorthecrime, re the determinism subject, i'd like to ask the quantum physicists who adopt local interpretations to seemingly random (indeterministic) quantum particles, the following question: how can anyone with any intelligence believe that indeterminism can lead to determinism? (there's a consensus among physicists, and perhaps even all scientists, that the universe is deterministic, so how can the indeterministic and random subatomic particles lead to deterministic systems?) therefor, non-local interpretations are the only logical explanation.

[Victimorthecrime]

Doesn't the theory of evolution talk about random genetic mutations in an effort to explain the emergence of certain characteristics that then become favored by natural selection?  For example the frog w the slightly longer legs is better able to jump away from the snake thereby living to reproduce. 

[Resolute]

11 minutes ago, Victimorthecrime said:

Doesn't the theory of evolution talk about random genetic mutations in an effort to explain the emergence of certain characteristics that then become favored by natural selection?  For example the frog w the slightly longer legs is better able to jump away from the snake thereby living to reproduce. 

i'm not too familiar with evolutionary theories, but perhaps when they say random, they mean "not yet understood", and not truly random.

[Resolute]

2 minutes ago, RogerJolly said:

I think I'm gonna take some time out for a few days (maybe longer.)

Wish you all well.

take care, roger. we'll miss you.

[Victimorthecrime]

13 minutes ago, RogerJolly said:

Yeah well, if that were true crocodiles wouldn't have those stumpy little legs...would they...?

Considering that crocodiles have been here since the time of the dinosaurs I would say they are well suited to their environment. When they sneek up on prey from shallow water and tall grass the short but powerful legs serve their purpose. 

[Resolute]

you know what's truly depressing? consider this scenario: me (an ugly man) and a very attractive man are in the same room. a beautiful woman walks in, what chance do you think i have of being preferred by her over the other guy (for casual sex)? almost zero. now imagine this scenario repeating in the exact same way millions of times, but with a different woman each time. can you imagine how embarrassing, humiliating, emasculating, painful, unbearable, etc. that feels? how can one go on feeling like that every single moment of his miserable life? or, how can one not give a damn, and not feel like crap? how can one actually still feel like a man knowing that he's useless to women in this most primal department?

[Victimorthecrime]

Res if women could see that mind of yours at work they would be impressed.  

[Resolute]

7 hours ago, Victimorthecrime said:

Res if women could see that mind of yours at work they would be impressed.  

if each man had his intellectual score (a comprehensive intellectual evaluation, not limited versions such as iq etc.), written on his forehead, then maybe some women would notice guys like me.

[Victimorthecrime]

35 minutes ago, Resolute said:

if each man had his intellectual score (a comprehensive intellectual evaluation, not limited versions such as iq etc.), written on his forehead, then maybe some women would notice guys like me.

Wow there's my Shark Tank idea. 

[Resolute]

btw, thanks for the compliment.

[IrmaJean]

On 3/10/2016 at 7:06 PM, Resolute said:

don't worry about it roger. beth is the kind of person who appreciates everything, even pain and suffering (the "everything is a gift" philosophy), so it's no surprise she'd appreciate getting older.

(beth, i'm sure you know i'm not attacking you, your feelings, or your beliefs.)

I wanted to comment on this because it isn't quite accurate. It isn't pain and suffering itself that I consider a gift, but rather what I can learn from the experience of it. The gift is in what I am able to learn and how I can grow from this.

[Resolute]

1 minute ago, IrmaJean said:

I wanted to comment on this because it isn't quite accurate. It isn't pain and suffering itself that I consider a gift, but rather what I can learn from the experience of it. The gift is in what I am able to learn and how I can grow from this.

either way, you consider pain and suffering a positive thing, if not for itself then as a means to an end. i, on the other hand, consider them to be absolutely negative things.

[tcnewexp]

I have had a couple of unique experiences, some very recently, that have changed how I personally think of manliness. Because I have an extremely wide range people in my network of friends/acquaintances, it changes drastically among the various social groups. 

One of my unique perspectives is that I am a clean cut, tie wearing professional that almost everyone refers to as a very nice guy.  However, in my mid 30's (10 years ago) I decided to quietly train mixed martial arts and actually ended up fighting 6 times. I don't readily share this info unless asked and the worlds are so far apart, hardly anyone in my professional life knows of my former fighting activities. 

What seems to be considered manly for the people I work with is hard working, leadership, strong character/honesty, professionally successful. I would say stature helps, but an average to short person will be considered manly with those other traits. I don't see being handsome/attractive as a contributor to manly. It will help catch a woman's eye, but if they lack those other traits, the woman won't consider them manly. Interesting side note to this, people in this world who found out I fought have been pretty split on the reactions, especially woman. Some were appalled that I would participate in something so barbaric/violent. Some thought it was fantastic. 

What seems to be considered manly for the people I became friends with that were either in the fight game or connected to people in it were physical strength, physical toughness, bravery, leadership, and successful. Same thing about attractiveness. People in this world that learned of my professional background were not impressed at all. 

My other unique experience is I have a son that came out as transgender (female to male) about five years ago.  Watching him go through that transition has been humbling from what he perceives he needs to be like to be accepted as a man. Very shallow images of a "real" man. Big 4 x 4 truck, only wears camo now, chews, always talking about guns, knives, etc. Some of these things were always an interest, but they are now an obsession. It's not that he likes trucks, its as if the truck is a requirement to be manly. 

[Resolute]

28 minutes ago, tcnewexp said:

I have had a couple of unique experiences, some very recently, that have changed how I personally think of manliness. Because I have an extremely wide range people in my network of friends/acquaintances, it changes drastically among the various social groups. 

One of my unique perspectives is that I am a clean cut, tie wearing professional that almost everyone refers to as a very nice guy.  However, in my mid 30's (10 years ago) I decided to quietly train mixed martial arts and actually ended up fighting 6 times. I don't readily share this info unless asked and the worlds are so far apart, hardly anyone in my professional life knows of my former fighting activities. 

What seems to be considered manly for the people I work with is hard working, leadership, strong character/honesty, professionally successful. I would say stature helps, but an average to short person will be considered manly with those other traits. I don't see being handsome/attractive as a contributor to manly. It will help catch a woman's eye, but if they lack those other traits, the woman won't consider them manly. Interesting side note to this, people in this world who found out I fought have been pretty split on the reactions, especially woman. Some were appalled that I would participate in something so barbaric/violent. Some thought it was fantastic. 

What seems to be considered manly for the people I became friends with that were either in the fight game or connected to people in it were physical strength, physical toughness, bravery, leadership, and successful. Same thing about attractiveness. People in this world that learned of my professional background were not impressed at all. 

My other unique experience is I have a son that came out as transgender (female to male) about five years ago.  Watching him go through that transition has been humbling from what he perceives he needs to be like to be accepted as a man. Very shallow images of a "real" man. Big 4 x 4 truck, only wears camo now, chews, always talking about guns, knives, etc. Some of these things were always an interest, but they are now an obsession. It's not that he likes trucks, its as if the truck is a requirement to be manly. 

 to me, first and foremost, it's how sexually attractive a man is to most women. and after that, how many very attractive women he has slept with.

[tcnewexp]

14 hours ago, Resolute said:

 to me, first and foremost, it's how sexually attractive a man is to most women. and after that, how many very attractive women he has slept with.

Is it fair to say that manliness means that to you because that's what you crave the most or feel most insecure about?  I don't mean to offend. From a guys point of view, I think it's easy to focus on the "manliness" factors that we feel like we lack. I know I do.  

[tcnewexp]

RogerJolly, I agree that fecundity (nice word choice btw, I had to look it up) plays a role is perceived manliness and I agree with your point. How about a 3rd guy, who is a as Resolute described (attracts a lot of beautiful woman) and fathers a number of kids from his various conquests. Is he the manliest of them all? 

[tcnewexp]

4 minutes ago, ba51th said:

manlines is about how asshole you are

I'm new so I'm not sure if you are joking or not. I hope so I guess. 

[tcnewexp]

15 minutes ago, RogerJolly said:

This is where it gets really interesting, @tcnewexp Some people would say that having lots of children by lots of women is practically the natural biological function of men - what men are therefore ideally all about. Personally I don't agree at all, because I think that this creates a situation where fathers will have minimal/zero input in the upbringing of most their kids. How can that not be a disaster?

One can never generalise completely, of course, but I do believe there is evidence that the children of fatherless single mothers have a greater tendency to run wild, do badly at school, etc? (Probably it is not not politically correct to say so, but hey...)

Of course I am creating a deliberately exaggerated contrast in my last post: the feckless super-loser versus the puritan sperminator, if you will. In reality, what we will see is varying degrees - with people tending more towards the one or the other extreme. It is the case, however, that the overall birthrate in many modern industrialised countries has been sinking, with people tending to have children at a later age, and to have fewer of them. And this is likely going to be an increasing problem for us, IMO.

(This whole thing is a personal hobby horse of mine for a good reason - I should have been in the second category, and I'm furious with myself that I'm not. I hate myself for screwing up so badly.)

Agree 100% with the fact that most kids that have no/minimal input from their father (or a long time positive stepfather) usually has bad results. I personally don't connect firtility/offspring at all with manliness, but I see the connection in society. I'm not following you on why you think the decline in birthrate is a problem. Hoping you can help me understand your thoughts better. 

[Resolute]

3 hours ago, tcnewexp said:

Is it fair to say that manliness means that to you because that's what you crave the most or feel most insecure about?

i think it's the other way around. those are the things i crave the most because, to me, they are what defines manliness.

 

3 hours ago, tcnewexp said:

I don't mean to offend.

your post isn't offensive.

 

3 hours ago, tcnewexp said:

From a guys point of view, I think it's easy to focus on the "manliness" factors that we feel like we lack. I know I do.  

some of us do actually lack some/many such attributes.