Resolute Posted September 26, 2015 Author Report Share Posted September 26, 2015 Yeah, I can't agree here. The accepted function of the "Ego" portion of the psyche is to choose between satisfying the needs of the "ID" (PP and DD) and the "superego". This is generally regarded as the weakest portion of the psyche, because it's the most difficult to condition. Because of this, there are two phenomena. It's weakness proves it difficult to to override the natural urges of the remaining psyche, which is why I place free will so slightly. However, because it's difficult to condition, it's likely that it's free from the influence of many variables. Basically, you can use this portion of yourself to choose weather or not to conduct a specific behaviour, which could then cause a shift in the other parts of the psyche.If you don't believe in the existence of these forces then ignore my post.how does being difficult to condition make it "'free' from the influence of many variables"? i also noticed you didn't say "all variables". can't it simply be preconditioned to be difficult to condition? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Resolute Posted September 26, 2015 Author Report Share Posted September 26, 2015 what about your post about the guy in his parents' basement, playing video games and eating cheetos, in contrast to the other guy?i think we both agree that circumstances (including physical traits) have an undeniably great influence on our behavior and "choices". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Resolute Posted September 26, 2015 Author Report Share Posted September 26, 2015 consider this: each person's ego is designed with a preset of instructions of exactly how to behave in any imaginable situation/scenario. would there still be any free will if this was the case? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Resolute Posted September 26, 2015 Author Report Share Posted September 26, 2015 If that were the case then no, of course not. But only the ID & Superego are generally agreed upon to be pre - programmed. Like a babies natural instinct to cry for food, or when in pain. Historically, the ego has always been regarded as the choice mechanism (By Freud and many others).well, freud ain't here now is he? like i said, for the ego to have actual choice requires randomness, which would explicitly imply its exemption from the laws of causality (which must apply to absolutely everything) (everything must adhere to the laws of cause and effect). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Resolute Posted September 26, 2015 Author Report Share Posted September 26, 2015 i'm having trouble understanding what you mean when you use the words 'possible', 'possibility', etc.. to me 'possible' means something that's imaginable and doesn't contradict any of the laws of logic; in which case any of us having different physical traits or circumstances is possible. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Resolute Posted September 26, 2015 Author Report Share Posted September 26, 2015 I think in a physical sense, for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. But psychologically speaking, this isn't the case. Why do we never see a 100% yield in any study? Why when repeated, with the exact same conditions, do the results vary even when conducted on a mass scale? If humans have a psyche that can be conditioned, is it so far fetched to think they can condition themselves too? In psychological settings, there are controlled or independent variables, but there are also confounding (unwanted or random)variables. If randomness can't be removed from controlled lab settings, why can't ot also exist in the massive chaos of the universe where infinite variables are constantly at play?Anyway, you've explained your views and I've explained mine. I think after here it's all opinion lol.as einstein put it (i'm paraphrasing): "there can exist hidden variables due to our ignorance"; otherwise randomness simply can't exist, whether on a tiny scale (such as quantum mechanics), or a large one (like the universe).we don't see 100% consistency in the results of certain tests/experiments because we only think that the conditions are replicated in the exact same way; but they're not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Resolute Posted September 26, 2015 Author Report Share Posted September 26, 2015 Toss a coin. There is one possibility - heads or tails. The determination has already been made because it's that coin and no other. Not two possibilities. It is possible that a particular coin will be flipped at that precise moment in time because it happens, whatever that coin lands on will be the possibility of reality at that instant. Any other outcome is an impossibility.ok, i get you now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Resolute Posted September 26, 2015 Author Report Share Posted September 26, 2015 klingsor, sometimes you just crack me up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Resolute Posted September 26, 2015 Author Report Share Posted September 26, 2015 don't delete the serious ones.btw, the mirror isn't exactly thrilled when i look into it either. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Resolute Posted September 26, 2015 Author Report Share Posted September 26, 2015 good one, small. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Resolute Posted September 26, 2015 Author Report Share Posted September 26, 2015 get a room you two. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Resolute Posted September 26, 2015 Author Report Share Posted September 26, 2015 I'm having breakfast now. Tea, toast, eggs and crumpets. I literally live for tea.i'm more of a soda guy myself, but i like tea too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Resolute Posted September 26, 2015 Author Report Share Posted September 26, 2015 Sorry for fucking up your thread.it's a "whining thread", and you whine better than i do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Victimorthecrime Posted September 26, 2015 Report Share Posted September 26, 2015 It's late and I am a little foggy but what you say about determinism above resolute is what I was less eloquently trying get at in the past when I said "biology is destiny". Not my original thought of course but the conclusion I came to after decades of seeing how things turned out for people I know. One pattern is clear: talented, attractive, vital people end up on top. If they don't do it for themselves someone will do it for them. It's just that simple (in my mind). What a person can do is work within themselves. But they will never be something they are not no matter how hard they work or whatever silly tricks they try to employ. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Resolute Posted September 26, 2015 Author Report Share Posted September 26, 2015 @ vic,i agree with you regarding the genetics thing, but i must add that the role circumstances play can't be overlooked either. even an attractive, talented, vital people can be subject to other unfavorable circumstances that cause them to not end up on top. for instance, such a person can be involved in an accident (or even a malicious act) that leaves them disfigured or mutilated, and that might cause his/her life to really suck.@ small,looks like it, lol. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whatever Posted September 26, 2015 Report Share Posted September 26, 2015 Im glad, I have this illusion of freewill. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Resolute Posted September 26, 2015 Author Report Share Posted September 26, 2015 Im glad, I have this illusion of freewill.i'm not; it complicates things, and not in a good way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Resolute Posted September 26, 2015 Author Report Share Posted September 26, 2015 How so?well, if we knew from the start that we're nothing more than puppets with consciousness, that would take some of the pressure of "decision making" off, for one thing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Resolute Posted September 26, 2015 Author Report Share Posted September 26, 2015 Fuck me. I've lost some work. See if I was a determinist I wouldn't be blaming myself.you still might, if it was determined that you blame yourself. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mts Posted September 26, 2015 Report Share Posted September 26, 2015 What are the appropriate rules for a society based on the idea that determinism is true? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest ChinaDoll Posted September 26, 2015 Report Share Posted September 26, 2015 I am not a prisoner of my fate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IrmaJean Posted September 26, 2015 Report Share Posted September 26, 2015 I'm probably on the opposite end of the spectrum with this. I believe we have free will, but perhaps some things (such as our physical health) may be predetermined. I agree that things often interact and affect one another.Klingsor asked why one person isn't another. Identical twins raised in the same family and the same environment won't be the same person. There are many variables at play, but there are also things in life that can't easily be explained with science or reason, in my opinion. The human factor? There aren't always clear answers to all of the whys in life, I don't think.I have known people to rise above their circumstances by being very determined, resilient, and by having a positive attitude and being highly motivated. I understand too that is not always possible.My personal thoughts... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Resolute Posted September 26, 2015 Author Report Share Posted September 26, 2015 What are the appropriate rules for a society based on the idea that determinism is true?well, in the spirit of full disclosure, i should mention that it has been suggested by some studies (small scale) that believing in determinism makes people more antisocial or something to that effect. as to what rules are befitting for such a society, i must say that certain laws and rules can stay as they are, but without the moral implications and judgements of being "good", "bad", or "evil" and so on.note that i haven't given this question much thought, as it's unrealistic, and thus pointless. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Resolute Posted September 26, 2015 Author Report Share Posted September 26, 2015 I am not a prisoner of my fate.i'm sorry to say that unfortunately, we all are; even though i don't believe in fatalism. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest ChinaDoll Posted September 26, 2015 Report Share Posted September 26, 2015 Whats so great about the top? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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