Dmx

[Guest ASchwartz]

Hermia, David and all,

There are a number of comments I wish to make but with the understanding that drug abuse and addiction are complex problems for which there is no one solution.

1. Hermia, it is my opinion, and you and others may certainly disagree with me, that your son's drug abuse problems are not you fault and not your problem. It is only when you disown his drug addiction that you can let him take responsibility for himself and that is what Alanon would tell you. But, forget alanon, the concept is true: You cannot change your son. Only your son can do that, when he is ready.

I urge you, very stronly, to watch a disturbing but honest reality show on A&E called Intervention. It has won well deserved awards and it is very helpful. You should watch it and learn about drug addiction and what families need to do.

David: My comments about JR were not meant simply or only to be humorous. If you go back and read you will see that I was trying to advise everyone to ask for clarification when a comment is made of the type that JR made. You may assume that you knew what he mean but I do not think so. For one, I do not know what he meant.

Human communication is extremely frail. Partly, it is made frail by our own fraility as you correctly point out. It is not just that you are frail, but, that we are all frail. We all suffer from "the slings and arrows of misguided fortune." Here, on the Internet, it is especially easy to feel very sensitive to what others write or to what we "believe" they write. Immanuel Kant said it best when he noted about "knowing" that (this is paraphrase) we know the world (perceive the world) but the world conforms to our way of knowing. In other words, each of us has different perceptions of the world, of each other, of what someone said, wrote, heard, etc. In my way of knowing, a picture is beautiful and in your way of knowing, the very same picture is ugly. Who is correct? Neither of us. That is what I am referring to with JR. We need to clarify and to ask the other person what they really mean.

Hermia: In my opinion, you need to get really tough with your son, including telling him to move out if he does not stop the drug abuse and get help.

Allan

[David O]

...and i didn't yell. Good! Keep this up, it will come around once he hears the quiet, determined, unequivocal voice of the parent who truly loves him.

David... i'm attempting to follow your advice. I've known for a week or so that the gf has provided my son with a cell phone. I've put off asking for the number because i knew what his answer would be, but today i did. Let me just say that i'm not really the nagging type. I have never been one of those people who uses the phone just to talk. I use the phone to pass along essential information (ie...will you be coming home this evening?...i'm going to be late..... etc.) and for safety reasons. At any rate, i was told to screw off, just as i'd anticipated. You tried... and your logic was and feelings about the need for the number were in the right place.

My Keeping your suggstions in mind, i merely responded that i felt his refusal was disrespectful and rude considering that i was his mother and requested this only for safety reasons. OK... here is where it gets dicey. My thinking is that you pull out completely from any discussions which involve hurt feelings- it only further damages the relationship. Since you guys seem to have arrived at a very painful (for you) impasse, your next step is to pull away emotionally (within yourself-- and this will be painful I know) and limit conversation to essential information. The only essentials, especially since he's abusing meds at your home, is that he know what he faces:" ___, if I see or find any evidence of drug abuse/alcohol in my house, you'll have to leave for 3 days. This means you'll have to pack some clothes and find another place to stay." This is the end of the sentence- say it once to him in a flat, matter-of-fact, completely un-emotional, robotic tone. Then turn around and walk away. Be clear and show intent. Whatever he says, do not respond unless he is apologizing or trying to make amends.

i didn't yell...i didn't scream...though i'm pretty sure you can guess the level to which this infuriates me. The key is your calmness, there's no need to inflame the relationship by fueling the fire. His level of contempt is strong and your goal is to re-establish balance by having him know the boundaries of the house and the limits of your tolerance. Hermia, I don't mean to sound cold and harsh, this is just simply that, a tough, hard way to still love someone whose turned his back on you.

With regard to telling him he needs to leave for 3 days if i find drugs in the home.... after the phone number conversation he left and i took a look in his room. The waste can is overflowing with empty boxes and bottles of robitussin, delsym, mucinex and the like. We haven't had a conversation with regard to drug use at home vs. outside the home. Honestly, i don't know how i could realistically enforce that. You make the rule known, tell him he will remove himself or you will have him removed by the police, on the spot. If he won't budge, call the police right then and there. If he begins to make motions to leave after you've called or picked up the phone, complete the call no matter what. If he destroys property, then he's out for a month or until he pays for the damages. There should be no equivocation on your part. This is a small battle that looks huge, painful and difficult as it is, but one that has to be fought in order to really have a voice in his life. You need to tell yourself that the decision was/is his, not yours. He decided he would rather be on drugs than have a shelter and food. Make sure he knows the door is open for his return (and that he will always be loved, no matter what), conditional that he obey the house rules, once he's done his time.

Hermia, this is a battle fought daily everywhere. I talk to parents with these struggles and we eventually do arrive at a tough love place after everything else has been exhausted.

Hermia, do you know if he takes these drugs compulsively because he hates himself or b/c he may feel as if no one loves and cares about him? If so, the tough love has to be done in a way that lets him know that it's love and not anger and hatred that drives these decisions. Is it possible that drugs allowed him to blot out that depressive self-focus and allow him to socialize as if everything was okay. If this is the case, what you do has to be done w/o emotion or the need to one-up or punish him.

Finally, do you know what role his mental health issues play in this?

hermia

Good luck... please stick with it,

David

Edited November 4, 2009 by David O

[JulianP]

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Edited February 7, 2010 by JulianP

[hermia]

Hi everyone and thanks again. I continue to read avidly and attempt to implement your advice to the level i find myself capable at any given moment. The thing is, the whole situation is rather mind boggling for me. I'm sure all of you are well aware of the range of crap that floats around in one's head when in a situation of this sort.

Some days, taking a break from dealing with it, thinking about it, and trying to do something about it, is what seems to be called for. Hmm...denial? detachment? delusional? self preservation? You get the drift

hermia

Edited November 6, 2009 by hermia
typo

[David O]

Good morning Hermia,

I read your posts in the addictions section. With the more complete picture, as expressed there, my responses and recommendations here would have been entirely different.

Minus your husband's support, you are essentially disempowered in your own home, and your son realizes this. Given this, the solution lies with your having a unified front: going it alone further disempowers you and sends your son deeper into his problem.

Clearly I should have asked more questions. My apologies.

David

Edited November 6, 2009 by David O

[hermia]

Hi david,

No apology is required. Your advice is great and i appreciate it. I can't always find the clarity of mind to answer all the questions asked anyway. I make comments here and there where i feel i might have something pertinent to add. People are complex and it's tough to get a handle on what they're all about from a few posts. Bigger pictures unfold slowly with each comment made.

When asking for advice regarding my son, i relayed all i could think of at the time that might be important info related to his troubles. I just assumed with all the comments i made about my "ex" people would understand it was just myself and my son in my home.

Actually i am pretty disempowered here. That's nothing new, but i don't think it's due to the absence of his father. I've been seperated from him since my son was just a toddler. His father has had limited involvement over the years but essentially i was it. I'd like to think i'm the ruler of the roost and don't require the assistance of a male counterpart to perform my parenting duties.

I've never really had the support of his dad. He comes and goes as he sees fit. Home, family, and parenting has always been MOM. Over the years my son has developed quite the dislike of his father. I'm sure some of that has come from me and my frustration with his fathers attitudes but honestly...i generally have always taken the stance...tried to run some interference for my son's well being...that his father loves him. His actions and attitudes...his presence or lack there of...are the result of his own problems that have nothing to do with my son or his behavior. In short, i've tried to maintain mentally healthy responses and limit my giving in to the ugly beast of mental illness that seems to run amuck in our family in one form or another.

But ya...right now i am disempowered but it's more to do with a teenage son than the lack of support from dad.

hermia

[JulianP]

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Edited February 9, 2010 by JulianP

[David O]

Hermia,

Too many angles, so many different places to read about this, and JP is right... I never wanted to imply you needed a male counterpart, I thought your ex was still in the picture and simply was undermining your efforts. If he's out of the picture and it's just you and your son, then let me be straightforward-- you are fully empowered but have opted not to exercise it or to be so. I don't mean this meanly at all, I say this as a parent of 2 grown children and two step children... it is said with great humility, compassion, empathy and understanding.

This has developed over the years and it has arrived at this point. Given this, what recommendations I had above are still very applicable. My suggestion, just like JP's, is that you become strong, take care of yourself, take your time and then when you're ready-- be powerful, firm and assertive, don't withhold, don't back down and don't give up. You'll likely only get one and maybe two cracks at it, so buckling could be extremely expensive.

Each of you has taught the other how you want to be treated: parents and children do this daily (as do spouses, co-workers, friends, family), it just depends on which messages get thru and are reinforced thru time. You've taught him (by default) _____________________. He in turn has taught you _______________ (just fill in the blanks). Now comes a new lesson that must be retaught and relearned (or taught and learned for the first time), and that is that you will be respected in your own home, period.

David

Edited November 6, 2009 by David O

[hermia]

Hi Julian,

After i posted my response to David i had afterthoughts that i probably misinterpreted his intent and considered trying to pull my post because i came across as being on a soapbox. I let it ride figuring that the more everyone knows about me and my own attitudes, the better informed they'll be in offerring advice. David takes a lot of time and effort in responding to others. His advice is appropriate and his responses genuine and heartfelt i believe. Where the energy for that comes from i don't know, but it is very appreciated. Not just him, but all of you.

The support of the husband/father/male counterpart thing is just one of my personal issues. A button so to speak. I understand how children identify with each parent. I know the importance of the relationships and a fair idea of the problems that may occur when the relationships aren't quite healthy. I've gone to battle in my own mind on that front for many years.

Julian...i don't want credit or praise. Most of the time i see myself as a pisspoor example of a mother. I just love my kid more than life itself and all i really want is to see him start functioning as a productive, reasonably happy member of the human race. I have faith in my heart that one of these days he going to "get it". That things will eventually fall into place with him.

I sure have said alot today for starting out with nothing to say because my thoughts weren't coming together.

Thanks for listening

hermia

[hermia]

Just thought i'd post an update for those who had participated in the thread. I really haven't had much opportunity to put into action many of the suggestions given to me... mostly because contact with my son has been pretty limited lately.

His gf had her baby on sunday. I was granted an approximately 3 minute conversation afterwards to get answers to all the burning questions.. is it healthy? what's she weigh? etc... The conversation was ended by my son after i asked the baby's name and then blew a gasket at the answer. Sorry david...i wanted to be calm...but the answer threw me for a loop and i went through the roof. I'll just say the meaning of her first name is "angel of death" and she shares my last name. In case any of you had forgotten my initial story...he is not the child's father. He only met this girl in march of this year.

I've been in contact with this girl's parents over the last few weeks and have learned some of her history. For now, suffice to say, it's worse than my son's. Her parents came to the hospital and talked her into going home with them for a "week or 2" to recover (they fear for the baby's wellbeing). She still has no real home and has been staying with friends since i asked her to leave my home. She has the resources to make a home for herself and her baby though she has chosen not to for whatever reason. My son went with them. He seems hellbent on sticking by this girl and pretending to be the child's father even though she's raking him over the coals.

There's alot more to the story, but that's the gist of it. He's still doing the DXM crap and has not made any effort to change it and now there's a baby to consider.

hermia

[xenophon]

That is a tough situation. Perhaps her parents retain some sort of positive influence on her. Please stay as calm as you can.

[Tony J]

Angel of Death ? Is it a goth thing ??

Poor baby. She can change it when she gets old enough.

It sounds like two stupid kids (I was a stupid kid once) who are dying for attention or something. Your story is killing me.

On the one hand, I know the thing to do is let your son handle this thing on his own. On the other, I feel your pain.

I still think you need to work on yourself. I don't know exactly what that means but if you let your son drive you to an early grave you won't be there for him when he matures a little and can use your help and advice. 18 is a tough age for boys. At least it was for me, I put my family through some similar crap. No pregnancy though, but I assure you I was a mess. And I grew up in time. Even though I was an alcoholic I still grew out of that immature, wild stage. Now I'm just embarassed when I think about it. Too many hormones, too little brains I guess.

Your family is in my prayers. Peace.

Just thought i'd post an update for those who had participated in the thread. I really haven't had much opportunity to put into action many of the suggestions given to me... mostly because contact with my son has been pretty limited lately.

His gf had her baby on sunday. I was granted an approximately 3 minute conversation afterwards to get answers to all the burning questions.. is it healthy? what's she weigh? etc... The conversation was ended by my son after i asked the baby's name and then blew a gasket at the answer. Sorry david...i wanted to be calm...but the answer threw me for a loop and i went through the roof. I'll just say the meaning of her first name is "angel of death" and she shares my last name. In case any of you had forgotten my initial story...he is not the child's father. He only met this girl in march of this year.

I've been in contact with this girl's parents over the last few weeks and have learned some of her history. For now, suffice to say, it's worse than my son's. Her parents came to the hospital and talked her into going home with them for a "week or 2" to recover (they fear for the baby's wellbeing). She still has no real home and has been staying with friends since i asked her to leave my home. She has the resources to make a home for herself and her baby though she has chosen not to for whatever reason. My son went with them. He seems hellbent on sticking by this girl and pretending to be the child's father even though she's raking him over the coals.

There's alot more to the story, but that's the gist of it. He's still doing the DXM crap and has not made any effort to change it and now there's a baby to consider.

hermia

[hermia]

Thanks xenophon, i'm trying to stay calm. Calm or enraged...neither state seems to ellicit change, so i suppose calm is best then.

Tony..been working on myself for a long, long time. There's a certain measure of guilt that comes from the selfishness of that though. Funny business trying to even all that out, eh? I was a wild child too. I grew up. Certainly not by age 18. The difference between myself and my son is that i had fear. I was afraid of consequence and thats what kept me from going over the line. I drew that line myself. I really had no adults around to do it for me. The fear of consequences seems to mean nothing to him. I hope and pray ( to God, to the little green man, to the maker, to the higher power) that his line is only a notch above mine and he will eventually "get it".

I hear alot of talk about hitting the bottom. How we don't learn our lessons until we hit bottom. I guess the bottom is a different place for each of us. For my ex, i understand that the bottom is when he was forced to live in a car in a campground shunned by his family. For other people it's the loss of a job, a home, or family. My level of fear is lower i guess...i'll risk less. Alot more than the average "normal" person but alot less than some. I imagine it's all to do with what a person finds intolerable.

Some days i say alot here (on this forum), other days i can say nothing. Mostly i just want to retain some hope that one day i can look back with my kid and say that was rough but you got through, we got through. I don't want my son to become a statistic. "1 in 4 children that come from broken homes have severe psychological problems..."1 in 5 children that experiment with marijuana have drug addiction issues as adults"..."1 in 3 children who have an alchoholic parent will commit a felony"......................whatever the odds, the statistics..............they suck... i just want to believe my kid is going to be ok eventually.

thanks for listening

hermia

[JulianP]

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Edited February 6, 2010 by JulianP

[JulianP]

deleted.....

Edited February 6, 2010 by JulianP

[hermia]

Julian...thanks...just...thanks

Funny thoughts your letter provoked. I've "written" hundreds of similar letters in my head. I'm not the most positive person...in general...and probably less so with my son. I know that's taken a toll on him. Just how much of a toll i don't really know.

I remember, years ago, in some of the IEP meetings at school, it being suggested that i focus on positive reinforcement. So..i'd come home determined to find something that evening to comment on that was positive. Then the phone would ring and his grandmother would tell me he refused to get on the bus that morning for school so she had to take him and she was late for work. Then i'd sort through the various messages from teachers saying he had detention for this infraction or that infraction. After that maybe dinner which he'd refuse and homework which was a fight. After that perhaps a visit from a neighborhood parent telling of something else that he'd done. And so it went on...one day like the rest. There was little opportunity for positive reinforcement. Years went by and the "infractions" became more serious.

I remember too when i was growing up. Getting credit for things i felt were not qualities i had. "You are intelligent"..."You are caring"...You're this or that...it really felt hollow. Unless i could balance the comments with something i felt inside i kind of resented them and used them to build a rather negative self image. With my son, i didn't want that to happen so i tried to base my positive comments on things that really deserved a compliment. Trouble was..they were few and far between. Eventually i settled into an attitude that said "i don't like your behavior but i will always love you."

I'm not sure where i'm going with this...it's just what's in my mind right now. I guess i'll just post this part then make an attempt of telling a story about a brick.

hermia

[hermia]

The brick...lol

From 4th grade on my son has done poorly in school. It wasn't from lack of intelligence but more to do with attitude. He simply refused to participate. Be it by refusing to attend or just sleeping through his classes. Prior to that he was an honor roll student. When he was 15, his behaviors had grown so bad that that he was placed in a detention facility that was run like a boot camp. After months of trying to buck the system and being miserable, he seemingly blossomed. He "got with the program" so to speak. He obtained his GED, "graduated" from this program, and was sent to an independent living facilty where he attended school to learn a trade, worked a job, and saved his money. His chosen trade was masonry. I was filled with pride at his accomplishments. Yes, he was forced to do this...but that never stopped him before. If he didn't want to do something, no amount of force or the inevitable consequences could change his mind. So this...this accomplishment...was real! Finally, something positive to focus on!

I wanted him to know just how proud i was. What to do? What to say? How to show him my pride....

I got a brick. On that brick, i had inscribed "our name Masonry..est. 2009". I wrote a letter telling him of my pride and my hope for the future. I wrote how one day he could use that brick in building something he cherished, and how this was the start of his destiny...which HE controlled.

That was May. This is now November. I'm trying hard to view this situation as just a setback. My kid is going to get this business of life...eventually.

Again..thanks for listening...and thanks for the support and feedback.

hermia

[JulianP]

deleted....

Edited February 5, 2010 by JulianP

[Luna-]

I don't want my son to become a statistic. "1 in 4 children that come from broken homes have severe psychological problems..."1 in 5 children that experiment with marijuana have drug addiction issues as adults"..."1 in 3 children who have an alchoholic parent will commit a felony"......................whatever the odds, the statistics..............they suck... i just want to believe my kid is going to be ok eventually.

Hi hermia, hope you are still around? I've only just caught this thread. I just want to offer a little thing that helped me, concerning discouraging statistics.

I was finally diagnosed Bipolar1 a year back, after my whole adult life of it. I read myself silly and of course the statistics weren't encouraging, especially not the one that said that 1 in 4 bipolars die from suicide.

But one day I was musing (and no doubt was less depressed) and suddenly it struck me, "hold on, but that means that THREE QUARTERS of bipolars DON'T commit suicide. The stats were actually in my favour! I'd never seen it that way before. Now I make sure to remember this when I read those depressing stats. Yes, it's still far more likely than in the "normal" population, but it's still LESS likely to occur. (Besides, I left "normal" behind so long ago that that is not even relevant any more.)

Just in case it helps you or anyone else...