I say, open the thread !!

[Tony J]

You know, I'm half tempted to let this go but there's something about locking a thread that disturbs me. Banning offending posters from the board is one thing, but to lock a thread because it's controversial or a few posters complain about it seems to indicate that a few people have undue control over the community.

The way the board is organized a viewer needs to come to the addictions board and then read a thread based on the topic. The viewer has every oppurtunity to ignore threads that don't interest him (I ignore the vast majority of threads, for example)

Without getting into the obvious politics and high school games that are being played in this particular event, I would like to see if anyone else has an opinion on locking an entire thread.

This is even more concerning when you remember that the terms of use ask that threads not be hijacked. Threads, on this forum are very much an extension of the original poster. (at least that's my take on that rule)

Should the 'community at large' be allowed to ignore a thread and let it die if it is unhealthy or should a few self appointed guru's get to decide what can be debated here ?

I am interested to hear your points of view.

(this is in regards to the anti-aa 'serenity haters club' thread, in case that's not obvious enough)

[SweetSue]

Hi Tony J.

I think that "the powers that be" on this forum lock threads for various reasons, some reasons are more obviouus than others.

I read the thread that you mentioned and well, I think it got locked coz it became un productive, more like a school playground with "he says she says".

But hey dont take it personally, coz like as in all playground situations, it takes more than one person.

Anyway the locked thread thingy, just try and let it go, your obviously not banned coz well your still able to post. Just try and avoid confrontations with people infuture, it only causes hurt feelings for everyone concerned including yourself,

I had one of my threads locked, actualy it was the first time I ever posted in this community, re read it a while ago and well still cant understand why it got locked,

Thankfully though I continued to post, and I am glad I did. This community has helped me through some really harsh times, and is still helping me now.

[JulianP]

deleted....

Edited February 9, 2010 by JulianP

[Mark]

The entire premise of that thread, which is indicated in its title, is hostile, combative, and regressive, however unintentional. Nothing positive or progressive can come out of anything that is premised on such negativity.

Tony,

I did not lock the thread - one of the moderators did - but I completely agree with what Julian so eloquently said in the previous post quoted above. I've been very glad to have you as a responder here and in the AA essays on the main site, but this sort of thing is at least unproductive, and at worst childish. Get it through your head that there is no winning here. People have had very different experiences which have led them to very different conclusions and there is no right and wrong about anyone's particular "truth" insomuch as it is driven by their past experience. Bating someone for an argument because they have drawn different conclusions based on different experiences just doesn't go anywhere that this community wants to go.

I think it's fine, and even a valuable service, to promote awareness of the positives about your AA experience and AA in general

I think it is useful to learn about what other people think about AA so as to understand why those people think that way. If you make them into enemies (even if they treat you as an enemy) you won't learn anything - you'll just get the momentary jollies of an argument or fight. However, if you try to understand them, you will learn something about someone else's experience of AA and that may prove useful to your own development as a person and a sober person.

Mark

[Tony J]

Dr D, I haven't heard the phrase 'get your jollies' in about 30 years.

You must be old.....

Anyway, I'm not sure that anything is unproductive. "To every action there is an equal and opposite reaction" The question is, what are you trying to produce.

If I am trying to change an anit-AA's opinion, then of course the discussion is unproductive. You can't normally change a fanatics point of view.

If, however, I'm trying to protect a person who is in pre or early recovery from misinformation that could harm him in any number of ways, then the question is open.

I am working from the premise that the candidate for recovery can be easliy lured down the wrong path by being told things he wants to hear.

The people engaged in the aa / anti-aa debate are, for the most part, in recovery. We have the luxury of expressing opinions (even wrong ones) and not necessarily drinking over it. This is not the case with a new person.

Besides the anti-AA's are really breaking the terms of use.

When a person encourages other's to not post on my thread because I'm a 'troll'. And says I need to be 'dealt with' and calls me by name, that is pretty aggressive behavior.

TOU violations :

"character assassination, back-stabbing, name calling,"

I don't mind that until a double standard is applied. Then it becomes a place where anti-AA's can take pot shots (direct or indirect) at AA and AA can't be defended.

Edited November 8, 2009 by Tony J

[Tony J]

You are right on many points, JP but not everything is about me.

"To every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose under the heaven"

Sometimes I need to look out for myself and work on 'me' and sometimes I need to look out for the next guy. There are people who will not get the chance I have gotten because they will listen to gossip and missinformation presented by people on forums like this.

My 'self respect' may not be worth the life of another. In the end it's not about me, in the end I'm a pile of dust.

Sure there's alot for me to reflect on and learn by my postings and the postings of others. But that's not the whole story. And, if you watch trutv for a while you'll see that some people really do deserve a good old fashioned ass kicking !!

Tony,

I am somewhat (but not entirely) indifferent to whether or not the thread in question remains locked or not. I did not post on that thread for reasons that include, but go beyond the simple fact that a thread entitled “anti-AA – serenity haters club” does not apply to me. The entire premise of that thread, which is indicated in its title, is hostile, combative, and regressive, however unintentional. Nothing positive or progressive can come out of anything that is premised on such negativity. I believe that the intent of this forum is for its community to share insights, feedback and information which will contribute toward an individual’s growth and overall well being. The negativity of any one thread or even any one post, can have a negative impact on others – sometimes others who are not specifically involved, for example, in an “AA debate”, but just someone who is feeling down or lonely and clicking away to connect to something enlightening or uplifting.

In addition, the reason why I personally did not contribute to that thread is because it seemed somewhat disrespectful to you. I have read many of your posts. I have recognized compassion, insights, and genuineness within your posts. You deserve to feel good about yourself which as I see it, is more likely to come about by offering the wisdom, sensitivity, and understanding you sometimes share. Feeling good about yourself does not come about by behaving defensively, offensively, and lashing out at others – regardless of how “right” you may feel you are. I don’t make the rules. But I have broken them enough times to have learned that feeling good about yourself simply is not available by planting your feet in the ground and “taking on your enemies” in defense of your position. “Letting go”, which I admit at one I time hated that term, comes about by opening your heart and in the face of wanting to “lash out”, give some understanding, acknowledgement or something positive, to the very person you want to lash out at. Perhaps you should listen more closely to the part of yourself that compels you to let this go. Or maybe you can start a new thread which more accurately reflects who you are. If I remember correctly, you are a Dad. So for me, that too plays into whether or not I want to engage you in something that will simply leave you frustrated, feeling unheard, unrecognized, unappreciated and pissed off.

I suppose the bottom line is I don’t really see this having as much to do with AA as you do, Tony. I see you struggling with all of the things that the rest of us struggle with and looking for something within your defense of AA, that quite frankly you deserve. You deserve to be acknowledged for the things you have turned around for yourself and the efforts you have made as a man, as a Dad, and to me, that is exceedingly more important than making some point about AA.

From my perspective, your thread was a step in the wrong direction for you personally and which led you away from all of the things you deserve to see in yourself and share with your world. That is my main reason for not participating in that thread. We can sometimes (and I have done it too many times to count) sabotage our own efforts, feelings, and our own goodness by demanding to be heard for example, and within those demands, hear no one else along the way, which can end with disaster and feeling even less heard than you started out. It is my experience that when you give to someone else that which you are seeking or feel that you need, you ultimately don’t need it any more. I suppose that is because you discover you had it all along.

Overall Tony, just be mindful about how you represent yourself everywhere – not just on this forum - but everywhere - and for no one's sake but your own. Ask yourself how am I representing myself right now and how will I view myself when I look back at any given situation? In the end, it has nothing to do with what anyone else sees in you. It is all about how you see yourself. For the most part, that is what determines how others see you, anyway.

I hope this somehow contributes to your efforts to be all that you are capable of.

JP

[Tony J]

Yeah. It is what it is.

There seem to be some good people here. I'm still trying to check my motives and figure out if I'll be more of a drain on the community than a help.

It's too soon to tell.

Thanks for responding.

Hi Tony J.

I think that "the powers that be" on this forum lock threads for various reasons, some reasons are more obviouus than others.

I read the thread that you mentioned and well, I think it got locked coz it became un productive, more like a school playground with "he says she says".

But hey dont take it personally, coz like as in all playground situations, it takes more than one person.

Anyway the locked thread thingy, just try and let it go, your obviously not banned coz well your still able to post. Just try and avoid confrontations with people infuture, it only causes hurt feelings for everyone concerned including yourself,

I had one of my threads locked, actualy it was the first time I ever posted in this community, re read it a while ago and well still cant understand why it got locked,

Thankfully though I continued to post, and I am glad I did. This community has helped me through some really harsh times, and is still helping me now.

[JulianP]

deleted....

Edited February 9, 2010 by JulianP

[Guest ASchwartz]

Hi Tony,

I want to fully assure you that you are NOT a drain on the community. In fact, I know very well of what you speak when you point out how hostile some of the anti AA's have been. We are well aware of this and have worked to tone down the rhetoric.

Unforunately, there are some people, a few, who incorrectly believe that, "if I diagree with you, I think you are wrong and you are invalid." This is a tricky type of thing because everyone has a need to feel heard and understood. However, the human ego, being as fragile as it is, people sometimes experience disagreement as being unheard or rejected.

All of us need to find a way to have discussions and disagreements without resorting to attack. I am not referring to you, or, I am not referring to you alone, but, to those others who tend to fall back on attack because they misunderstand.

All of us, let's continue the debate, but in a more respectful and sensitive manner. What did that guy say about ten or so years ago, "Can't we all just get along?" Well, everyone......Can't we?

Allan

[xenophon]

I view this as a matter of informed personal choice. People should investigate their options: do it yourself, with varying degrees of involvment by externals; join a group. There are several groups available to join. All these groups have web sites on line; links to them are available on this forum.

This is a matter of personal choice. None of these groups have a demonstrated success rate. A person can change their group -- go to 'plan B' if the first group is not to their liking.

AA does suit some people; it is compatible. AA does not suit some people; it is incompatible. There is nothing amiss in that.

I have no stake in a decision made by a particular person. People have the absolute right and responsibility to make their own judgements -- for good reason, bad reason or no reason.

[McGowdog]

delete please

Edited November 22, 2009 by McGowdog

[Tony J]

LOL !!!!

I just added to your rep. Enjoy it because someone will soon take it away......they don't like AA in these parts.

I think I may let the anti-AA's be. They seem happy as long as there's no one around to challenge their views. I do worry about a newbee who might be led astray, but God looks out for His own. So, you know, live and let live.

Have fun while you're here though. Peace.

I am personally a Pro-A.A. anti-A.A. hater and I'm glad that stupid thread went down in a firey crash.

A.A. is the most successful solution on the planet for recovering real alcoholics. It works for real alcoholics and it works every time.

My name is McGowdog and I approve this message.

[Guest ASchwartz]

Hi McGowdog and TonyJ,

Mcgowdog, please don't hate the anti AA people. They are good people. Yes, they have very strong opinions, but, so do you. The idea is to discuss these things while remaining civil and remembering, we are talking about real people with feelings.

TonyJ, please do not "leave them alone." Like I said above, the idea is to discuss and in ways that are respectful.

In the meantime, what do we do about an addiction crisis that is getting increasingly worse. I will admit that it really scares me.

Allan

[McGowdog]

delete please

Edited November 22, 2009 by McGowdog

[Tony J]

Well, the thing not to do is attack AA as a terrible method of recovery.

There are other options that are becoming available now. If those options work that's a good thing.

The question is, were the early AA's correct about the nature of adiction or not. Is it progressive ? Is the addict unlikely to stop without a major psychic change (aka spiritual awakening) ? Is lifelong absitnence and vigilance required for the recovering(ed) addict. Does one addict connect with another in a certain way that helps both recover ?

I think all these conditions apply today just like they did 70 years ago.

One thing we can do as a society is not glamorize alcohol/drug abuse. Cigarettes are now rather unpopular. People understand the dangers and many chose not to smoke or stop after a few years. That's a cultural change. The same thing can be worked for in regards to abusing substances.

On the level of recovered people we should not look to make our 'solution' the best or only solution. We should be open to whatever works. That's just common gratitude and humility. Saying a certain method isn't for me is honest. Saying it's not for anyone else is arrogant.

Hi McGowdog and TonyJ,

In the meantime, what do we do about an addiction crisis that is getting increasingly worse. I will admit that it really scares me.

Allan

[McGowdog]

delete please

Edited November 22, 2009 by McGowdog

[JulianP]

deleted....

Edited February 9, 2010 by JulianP

[Tony J]

Well, I've never thought AA is the 'only' way. In fact, if you read the Big Book AA doesn't think AA is the only way.

I would say the only alternative to recovering is jails, institutions or death. That's just the nature of addiction.

Some share that AA is the only way, and further more is the only way that ever was, to get sober. That's hyperbole. That's why newcomers should read the Big Book for themselves. I was taught early on to take what was said from the floor with a grain of salt and read the Big Book for myself. Good advice. Very good advice.

You can study the Big Book. A meeting is just fellowship and individual experience and opinion and interpritation. You have to learn the difference at some point. They say, if you don't read the Big Book yourself you'll only know what the drunk next to you tells you about it.

I agree. Just as saying a certain method does work for me is honest. Saying it is the "only way" that works for everyone or that people's only alternative to it is jails, instituition and death is also arrogant as well as irresponsible and potentially dangerous - even fatal, if it is naively or mistakenly accepted as true.

I think acknowledging and celebrating our differences is key to peacefully co-existing for all people, regardless of whether or not it is specifically related to recovery, AA, and addiction. When we honor each other's differences and pay tribute to an individual's inherent urge to follow his own path, we create relationships and environments which induce personal growth and expansion. We learn from each other. Unfortunately, what is often the case is people, out of their own need and limiting self-perspective, deny and attempt to invalidate each other's differences. Doing so eliminates growth and leads to perpetual ignorance and stagnancy. Two people with different opinions can both be "right". The moment one doesn't see the other as an individual and imposes a need for the other person to validate him though, he becomes "wrong".

JP

[xenophon]

I think that everyone should read the big book - psychologists, priests, social workers, drunkards -- and decide for themselves whether it makes any sense to them. Then, proceed as indicated.

[McGowdog]

delete please

[Ray Smith]

You can't normally change a fanatics point of view.

If, however, I'm trying to protect a person who is in pre or early recovery from misinformation that could harm him in any number of ways, then the question is open.

Protecting a person before they get harmed in recovery world is exactly what I'm trying to do. When 95% of people drop out of AA in their first year (AA's numbers), that shows that something is wrong.

I was a volunteer peer advocate with a program whose clientele were all dually diagnosed. They had all been through 12step treatment and AA/NA, most several times, all unsuccessfully. I now work in mental health primarily with those who have coexisting substance abuse issues. Together, over five years in the field.

I've run DRA, SOS, and harm reduction groups, each has had their success stories and their failures. All of them have had people who feel they had been harmed by AA/NA.

Besides the anti-medication factor and the 13th steppers which are obvious (and tolerated in the rooms), the philosophy of AA is damaging for many. The idea that addiction isn't the people's fault, that is a disease that they powerless over is seductive. People don't want to admit that their actions led to their addictions, that's the pull of 12step groups. Belief that they are powerless gives them an excuse for relapses.

When people in AA relapse, it is practically scripted that they go out on a full class binge. The Brandsma study showed that binging occurred five times as much with people in 12step treatment as those who received no treatment and nines times more that those who had received rational behavioral therapy.

AA is fear-based program, all the talk of "jails, institutions, and death" and the horror stories of how people who leave die are scare tactics not health coping skills. People, especially those with coexisting disorders, respond better to Motivational Interviewing/Motivational Enhancement than fear.

And some, like myself, could not accept the religious nature of the program. I have had several clients with religious delusions that were all too eager to accept AA religiosity and incorporate it with their own that ended up badly.

It's for these reasons I cannot, in good conscience, suggest AA as a treatment method.