The Power Of Porn

[eNIGMA]

It's wandering a bit, as does any thread that reaches three pages.

What I'm starting to see, though, is that people are starting to take what's said personally. This is not likely to turn out well. :-)

I think my issue with criticizing something like pornography, is a 'if you don't like it, don't watch it' thing. I feel the same about drugs. Do I use drugs? No. If it were legal, would I care? Nope. Other than the trillions of tax dollars we'd save. It's not my place to judge others.

I would like to feel the same about religion, but they all encourage people to 'convert' others, and in general, tend to push laws through that prevent other groups of people from enjoying freedom. Now, if the porn and drug users started passing laws that said everyone else has to use drugs and porn, then I'd have a problem.

You know what I'm saying? With the pledge here in the states, "under god" was just added about 50-60 years back. Why change the pledge? No gay marriage. Abortion doctors getting killed. All people want is to be free. That includes making mistakes with their lives.

Pornography may be an issue for some - as a gambling or drinking problem might be to others - However, religion is an issue for an entire nation.

[Guest ASchwartz]

Hello Everyone,

This is an excellent discussion of the power of Porn and the difference between Fantasy and Reality.

We went slightly off when some one seemed to imply that "sexually normal people do not watch porn." That's an appoximate and not direct quote. My point is that the person who posted this meant no harm. However, here on the Internet, it is easy to misunderstand and misinterpret. So, let me clarify:

In actuality, very normal and healthy men and women view pornography. The reasons they do so is very complicated and diverse. So, the fact that someone is viewing porn, male or female or both as partners, does not make them abnormal. OK?? Clarified?

I suspect that, in view of some conflicts that recently occurred here, in the community, there is some "sensitivity" about anything controversial coming up.

There is nothing wrong with the length of this thread and we do need to focus on porno, reality and fantasy and what it all means to each of us, our children, marriages, etc.

Allan, submitted warmly and encouragingly :)

[eNIGMA]

Right on. I haven't gone through the whole thread yet, but was more responding to the opening line of the first post about religion / porn.

OK, I'm older and have followed religious beliefs that kept me away from porn but I am seeing it being a very big problem

Not trying to disrespect anyone either - Just factually stating that one group tries to repress others' freedoms, and the other doesn't. So, from my perspective, religion is the bigger problem.

[brandi]

this is a great thread. most of you see things the same way i do,and i DO like to hear the different sides,respectfully. i do think it's funny though,how it turned into a thread about religion when people were being 'respectfully' told that they were immoral (even if there was no actual name calling). i believe in god,but i don't believe in religion or bible pushers. if they would pay attention to some of what they're pushing,they'd realize that judging and belittling people is the exact oppisite of what they should be doing.

[eNIGMA]

i do think it's funny though,how it turned into a thread about religion

Well, it started off as a thread about religion, technically - The effect that a religious upbringing has on one's view of sexuality. Very first sentence. But I don't see anything wrong with discussing it either way. It's relevant.

If you look at an extreme such as in many Muslim countries, you'll see how much religion can shape a person's morals. Now it's okay to kill others in a holy war, or to bomb innocents and become a martyr, or to oppress women. Christianity is no different, in that it seeks to instill it's own set of moral codes, be it less extreme (these days).

It's a very powerful thing... this promise of immortality. It plays to the self-important human ego; The thought that our life experiences have to mean something.

[hell2breakfast]

!!! Possible trigger!!

In my opinion.....

Watching other people have sex (voyerism) has a DEGENERATIVE EFECT on the human psyche. I have no way of proving this. It is just my opinion based on my own experience with pornography. (for what its worth I am not in any way religious nor harbor any superstitious beliefs that I am aware of)

Having said all that, there have been numerous studies linking porn sales to increased incidence of violence against women, rape, and murder. See:

mincava.umn.edu

oup.com (pornography: women, violence and civil liberties)

crisisconnectioninc.org

antipornographyleague.com

yahoo; think its not a problem?

artofmanliness.com...(The problem with porn)

nationalcoalition.org

familysafemedia Many, many more.

It is instructive to note the differing ways pornography exerts its influence on people with different emotional problems, broadly catagorised as pro porn and anti porn....It seems to me.... that those who are sexually inhibited like me are more drawn to porn (and hate it more) and the hypersexual among us are not so drawn to it but want it to be available for use.

The common thread is that we are both here on this mental help cite because of the common problem of loneliness. IMO...Porn contributes to loneliness because by its very nature it forces the focus on the body instead of on the person. Parenthetically, I think it is no coincidence that the rise in porn paralells the death of marriage (or at least happy marriages)

Finally, I want to make the distinction between condeming porn and its victims crystal clear....I think those who make and distribute porn should be fined and/or jailed....those who watch it should be helped, if possible to find a more constructive outlet....

This is how i FEEL about it based on what it has done to me, sorry if it is triggering to others

[hell2breakfast]

The title of the thread is the power of porn and I understood Ginger to be asking about the source of that power, The religion was just an opening remark leading to the broader question; Why has porn become so big an industry it makes more money than all the top tech industries combined, that includes google and the rest of the big ones (see links in above post)

My answer to her question was my opinion only and not intended upset anyone. I repeat my answer here, its so huge because people like it.... but then people also voted for Bill Clinton...Twice. Then turned right around and voted for George Bush......Twice!

[silentmist]

Porn is definitely powerful and some people can't handle it, like with violent computer games, some people will use the stimulus to rehearse some criminal act. To help bring their fantasy into reality.

This is how I use porn, it helps to make my fantasy more 'real'. I've never had a sexual relationship so I've never seen a real woman's body so I use the imagery to 'fill in' the gaps of my knowledge of women's bodies.

My fantasies pivot around having a relationship, being desired and wanted. The imagery from the porn actually plays a small part of the fantasy.

[eNIGMA]

.I think those who make and distribute porn should be fined and/or jailed....those who watch it should be helped, if possible to find a more constructive outlet.

Nice - Jail people with no evidence that it "has a DEGENERATIVE EFECT on the human psyche"? You may not be religious, but you play the part pretty well. The whole "let's solve problems by taking away people's freedoms" bit. It doesn't work. It never will.

I'm going through your links, and there's nothing about a study being conducted. In fact, one of your sites says "There is no ethical way to isolate test subjects, bombard them with porn and then set them loose and see what happens."

One of the others was just a discussion group, like we've got going here. There's some loose stats that conveniently link porn to increases in violence toward women, but I'm sure I can link sales of cottage cheese to the same stats. Point is, there's too many other factors.

In fact, looking through the references, many of them are from the early 1980's. I'd say some of those stats are outdated. For instance, I bet there are currently more McDonald's than adult book stores.

Regardless. It comes down to those who cherish freedoms, and those who seek to take them away. What's next on the agenda? Rock music? Video games? Movies that show couples kissing? Toaster ovens? Could burn your house down! I'm allergic to cats - Let's make owning those illegal. I don't like mini-skirts, let's get rid of those too. Milk. I'm lactose intolerant, so that should be illegal as well.

We'll just give everyone in the world a piece of paper, and they get to write down what they want to be illegal. Problem solved.

[silentmist]

It would be impossible to ban pornography. There's always going to be people who are exhibitionists who become aroused at the idea of people watching them and there's always going to be people who like to watch.

IMO the issue is informed consent. I like porn, I use it although I won't pay for it. The issue I have with internet porn is that there is such potential for people to be pressured into it, it's effectively unregulated. This is why I won't pay for it. To do so would create demand for an unregulated industry.

[hell2breakfast]

Nice - Jail people with no evidence that it "has a DEGENERATIVE EFECT on the human psyche"? You may not be religious, but you play the part pretty well. The whole "let's solve problems by taking away people's freedoms" bit. It doesn't work. It never will.

I'm going through your links, and there's nothing about a study being conducted. In fact, one of your sites says "There is no ethical way to isolate test subjects, bombard them with porn and then set them loose and see what happens."

One of the others was just a discussion group, like we've got going here. There's some loose stats that conveniently link porn to increases in violence toward women, but I'm sure I can link sales of cottage cheese to the same stats. Point is, there's too many other factors.

In fact, looking through the references, many of them are from the early 1980's. I'd say some of those stats are outdated. For instance, I bet there are currently more McDonald's than adult book stores.

Regardless. It comes down to those who cherish freedoms, and those who seek to take them away. What's next on the agenda? Rock music? Video games? Movies that show couples kissing? Toaster ovens? Could burn your house down! I'm allergic to cats - Let's make owning those illegal. I don't like mini-skirts, let's get rid of those too. Milk. I'm lactose intolerant, so that should be illegal as well.

We'll just give everyone in the world a piece of paper, and they get to write down what they want to be illegal. Problem solved.

Tell it to Ted Bundy and his 28 victims

[hell2breakfast]

It would be impossible to ban pornography. There's always going to be people who are exhibitionists who become aroused at the idea of people watching them and there's always going to be people who like to watch.

IMO the issue is informed consent. I like porn, I use it although I won't pay for it. The issue I have with internet porn is that there is such potential for people to be pressured into it, it's effectively unregulated. This is why I won't pay for it. To do so would create demand for an unregulated industry.

Yes but if children were raised more as human beings rather than posessions, pets, objects, etc. there would not be so many exhibitionists and voyuers to fuel the demand. IMO

www.psychohistory.com

[hell2breakfast]

I'm sick and tired of people demanding we ban this or we ban that just because we have a few sickos in the world. If somebody shoots up a school after playing Modern Warfare 2 then they have major issues, and it has nothing to do with a video game. Same rule applies to somebody who rapes and degrades women after watching porn.

To most men porn is just used for masturbation nothing more. It's insulting to men to say we expect all women to want to enjoy the type of sex that's in porn. Anybody over the age of 15 should know that real sex is a lot different to most porn. Most of the porn I watch tends to be more amateur porn because it's real sex. The Hollywood style porn doesn't really do anything for me because it's too fake.

There's absolutely nothing wrong with viewing pornography. Like anything else in life, too much can be a problem but that's to do with a deeper issue within the person.

It's about time people took responsibility for their own actions rather then blame guns, music, alcohol, video games or porn.

Well, we are both sick and tired.

Im sick and tired of people demanding that we allow this and allow that simply because they want it.

[hell2breakfast]

So we make it illegal because you don't want it? How about you don't look at it? If I don't like like looking at something I don't watch, but I don't tell people want they can and cannot watch. Unless it was something like childporn or something else against the persons will.

And Ted Bundy was a sociopath. I saw the documentary where he said porn had an influence. You really think most normal people would rape and kill women after seeing porn?

No, we make it illegal because it distorts the way women are percieved in the minds of some children. Ted Bundy is just one case. As for choosing whether to watch, man is not an island, what i do has an impact on you and vice versa. there is evidence that watching sex and violence increases those behaviours. and it is so popular in our culture it is impossible to escape because its ALL porn (commercial sex)

My freedom from porn would not impinge upon your freedom to view, produce, or engage in any sex behaviour you and your like-minded friends choose, its when you decide it is so good everyone should have it and start taking pictures which will eventually assault the fragile emotions of a still undeveloped mind I have a problem with.

While it is true that most people don't become serial killers etc, after viewing porn. what about the ones that do? Is haveing a hundred or so serial killers running loose the price we should be willing to pay so that we can still have access to something we could very easily live without?

I must remind you that motion photography is not yet 200 years old. People survived just fine without it...And no, women were NOT slaves, cattle, etc.

Thats what the porn industry would have us believe about todays women.

[eNIGMA]

While it is true that most people don't become serial killers etc, after viewing porn. what about the ones that do? .

Ban cigarettes. While it's true that most people who see other people smoke don't become smokers, what about the ones that do?

Ban alcohol. While it's true that most people who see other people drink don't become alcoholics, what about the ones that do?

Ban fast food. While it's true that most people who eat fast food are not obese, what about the ones that are?

Ban guns. While it's true that most gun owners are not murderers, what about the ones that are?

Ban sex. While it's true that most people who have sex don't get STD's, what about the ones that do?

Ban music. While it's true that most people who listen to rock don't go on a killing spree, what about the ones that do?

Ban Operas. While it's true that most presidents who go to the opera don't get assassinated, what about the one that did?

Ban the Sun. While it's true that most people who go out in the sun don't get skin cancer, what about the ones that do?

You can literally ban everything with your rationale. If Ted Bundy and outdated stats are the meat and potatoes of your argument, you might want to go back to the drawing board.

PS. Don't forget making money illegal. It's the root of all evil!

[hell2breakfast]

Ban cigarettes. While it's true that most people who see other people smoke don't become smokers, what about the ones that do?

Ban alcohol. While it's true that most people who see other people drink don't become alcoholics, what about the ones that do?

Ban fast food. While it's true that most people who eat fast food are not obese, what about the ones that are?

Ban guns. While it's true that most gun owners are not murderers, what about the ones that are?

Ban sex. While it's true that most people who have sex don't get STD's, what about the ones that do?

Ban music. While it's true that most people who listen to rock don't go on a killing spree, what about the ones that do?

Ban Operas. While it's true that most presidents who go to the opera don't get assassinated, what about the one that did?

Ban the Sun. While it's true that most people who go out in the sun don't get skin cancer, what about the ones that do?

You can literally ban everything with your rationale. If Ted Bundy and outdated stats are the meat and potatoes of your argument, you might want to go back to the drawing board.

PS. Don't forget making money illegal. It's the root of all evil!

And by your rationale we should ban rules of any kind because you want unlimited freedom

[hell2breakfast]

Well them blame the lousy parents for allowing their child to watch adult material.

Show us some evidence. Rapists, paedophiles and murderers have always existed and will continue to exist, the fact that those type of people can access porn doesn't change the fact that they are deeply disturbed and always possibly would have been a threat.

I noticed you mention freedom. Well there's nothing free about your idealistic censorship of pornography. My option gives you a choice, your option is giving nobody a choice because you don't like it. Well I don't like gay porn, but no way would I say gay porn should be made illegal because everyone should be given the right to choose.

This is nonsensical. You really think pornography turns someone into a serial killer? There's early signs of someone who shows psychopathic personality and one of the signs isn't some 13 year old kid jerking off over a sex video or magazine. If anything porn may even control the urge of some men going out and committing offences.

People also survived well without TV, DVD players, the internet, cars and even a toothbrush. Let's outlaw them all and all move back into caves.

And most women have a choice when they decide to do porn. Some of them earn a hell of a lot of money. There's is always going to be some who get exploited unfortunately, but those people need to be punished who do exploit some of these women. But your draconian measures of Ilegalising all pornography is not the answer and it probably wouldn't work. The horse has already bolted from the stable and people will make porn whether it's illegal or not.

there are certain words we don't use in public because they are offensive to some. Thus, those who would consider them "freedom of speech" could say "well, if they don't like the words, get up and leave" But thats not the way life works, we must all at some point, give up some of our freedoms in consideration of others....Pornography is offensive to me and many many others...guess we'll just have to see who wins..so far your side is winning.

But Nature is cyclical:cool:

[eNIGMA]

And by your rationale we should ban rules of any kind because you want unlimited freedom

Nope. No murder, rape, assault, or theft.

But you still haven't explained why my other examples should not be made illegal as well. What about alcohol? Or smoking? You're avoiding it because you know if you make porn illegal, you'd have to make a TON of other stuff illegal as well using the same principle. There are far bigger problems than porn if you're looking to wave your magic wand around. So tell me why porn and not alcohol? Do you know how many people die each year as a result of drunk driving?

Sounds like you want a Monarchy. Maybe get yourself a little crown. Have a silly horse and carriage drive you around (because automobiles will be illegal - One man's car affects his neighbor's air quality).

I have two friends who are strippers. I respect them. They make a shit-ton of money and take care of their kids. They are very nice people. You go ahead and tell them how much they're being degraded. They'll laugh at you all the way to the bank.

They don't need to be rescued from their chosen line of work. People in general don't need rescuing from this at all. Your view of pornography is distorted and extreme. Sorry man. I know what that's like

[hell2breakfast]

Nope. No murder, rape, assault, or theft.

But you still haven't explained why my other examples should not be made illegal as well. What about alcohol? Or smoking? You're avoiding it because you know if you make porn illegal, you'd have to make a TON of other stuff illegal as well using the same principle. There are far bigger problems than porn if you're looking to wave your magic wand around. So tell me why porn and not alcohol? Do you know how many people die each year as a result of drunk driving?

Sounds like you want a Monarchy. Maybe get yourself a little crown. Have a silly horse and carriage drive you around (because automobiles will be illegal - One man's car affects his neighbor's air quality).

I have two friends who are strippers. I respect them. They make a shit-ton of money and take care of their kids. They are very nice people. You go ahead and tell them how much they're being degraded. They'll laugh at you all the way to the bank.

They don't need to be rescued from their chosen line of work. People in general don't need rescuing from this at all. Your view of pornography is distorted and extreme. Sorry man. I know what that's like

Porn is an assault on the brains of the young, the pre-frontal cortex is not fully developed until around twenty-five years old. by its very nature, porn actvates and builds pleasure circuitry in the brain of a developing child that become addictive over time and chokes off or kills other circuits so that they can not have sex with a real person. It is basic classical conditioning. if you don't use it you lose it. The time a kid spends viewing porn is time not spent interacting with a girlfriend or playing sports, studying, etc. thus these synapses wither and die.

In much the same way...no, exactly the same way you train a dog to increase his drive through repetition (allowing other behaviours to go extinct) A teenager who views porn will be more likely to continue to do so and more and more to achieve the same high or drive level. And the stronger these connections (habits) get the weaker the more useful areas of the frontal lobe become.

Also I have noticed that you are becoming increasingly agitated and your posts are beginning to drip sarcasm. Is this exchange beginning to cause discomfort on your part? if so we can just call you the winner and leave it, hows that?

[hell2breakfast]

Once again your argument against is flawed. Being abusive towards somebody in public is disrespect, how that compares to viewing porngraphy I do not know.

It seems the only reason you want porn made illegal is because you don't like it. Well I don't like smoking but I would never want it banned because people should be allowed the freedom to choose what they wish as long as it isn't hurting others. In regards to porn, most porn stars choose that lifestyle, some may regret it later on but most were not forced into it. The one's that were, those people should rightly be jailed and the films destroyed if it can be proven.

Your bad experience of porn is your bad experience of porn. It's a bit like an ex-alcoholic saying they want all alcohol banned because they were addicted. Most people that drink alcohol aren't alcoholics and most people who watch porn don't become addicted. You views remind me of the silly nanny state we have in the UK when it comes to pornography, and thanks to the internet they have failed in their silly censorship rules. It should be up to the individual, not up to other individuals. We're adults not children.

Your view could also be offensive to me and many others because you telling me what I should and should not be allowed to view. I could argue that your opinion should be made illegal because I don't agree with it going by your logic.

It is the same principle, ones freedom to say whatever one pleases must be tempered by the feelings of others. We are disscusing pornography, which many find offensive. moreover there are as many, and probably more acadamicians who think porn is destructive and physically unhealthy as not.

Thus it is not only offensive to others but actually harmfull to any who watch it to the extent that they do. I personally think it is a big factor in the degeneration of our society

Im sorry if this is triggering for you but your freedom to watch porn is not at issue. The issue is making porn available to everyone regardless of who is harmed or who is offended. It is child abuse and neglect on a mass scale.

[eNIGMA]

Also I have noticed that you are becoming increasingly agitated and your posts are beginning to drip sarcasm. Is this exchange beginning to cause discomfort on your part?

Not at all man - I'm just a complete wise-ass most of the time. =)

But what you are looking for is an impossible thing. In order to make porn illegal, you'd have to make a whole other list of things illegal by the exact same principle. Are you willing to do that or not? You keep dodging the question, SIR!

According to the law, kids should not be drinking or watching porn. Explain to me how you justify keeping alcohol legal.

[brandi]

child abuse is an argument you might make if people were selling it to them. you get carded before buying porn just like cigarettes and it is up to the parents to make sure THEIR stash isn't easy to find. most parents feel more compelled to hide their porn than their guns in most situations..so i really have no ide why you are being so argumentative. we promise not to watch it in front of children or anyone who doesn't want to watch with us,shouldn't that be good enough?

[eNIGMA]

Take the muslim world, for example:

http://www.spiegel.de/international/spiegel/0,1518,443678,00.html

"The more repressive a society is, the more desperately it seeks an outlet," says Nedjma, who conceals her real name because she has already been vilified on the Internet as a "whore" and an "insult to Islam."

Would you say their women are treated any better since porn is illegal?

[brandi]

oooh..good point

[hell2breakfast]

Not at all man - I'm just a complete wise-ass most of the time. =)

But what you are looking for is an impossible thing. In order to make porn illegal, you'd have to make a whole other list of things illegal by the exact same principle. Are you willing to do that or not? You keep dodging the question, SIR!

According to the law, kids should not be drinking or watching porn. Explain to me how you justify keeping alcohol legal.

Not exactly dodging the question, just staying on topic. I don't think it follows that to pass a law against A. You are required to pass one against B. and having passed that one you have to do C. etc.

They passed a law that the drinking age is twenty one and they may or may not pass a law that driving age is the same, or military service, etc.

However now that you mention it I am not convinced alcohol should be legal. Its not as if it is needed for survival, and certainly causes great harm in society. Also, there is a certain class of drunk that either looses or pretends to loose all higher brain functions and switches to the brain stem or the "reptilian" brain. Give these people alcohol they are exceedingly dangerous and will attack any percieved prey object that moves or talks back, which they percieve as movement. These people should not be allowed to drink period. and in my opinion should not be allowed to breed (now you can play the Nazi card

But getting back to porn, it is much easier to obtain than booze. the average age that kids are first exposed to porn is 12 according to some and I don't doubt it at all. And while I agree that it is impossible to stop porn I don't think that is the point that Gingersnap was trying to make or the point I am trying to make, we are I think more concerned with society embracing porn as a good thing, with its immense popularity, and its pervasivness in the culture...Its POWER over some people and its apparent influence in government.

I personally would not advocate hanging anyone caught with porn, but a twenty dollar fine wouldn't hurt, people will still do it but at least children would have a better chance to stay children a little longer.

Ideally, imo we should not NEED a law against porn people should avoid it instinctually much as one avoids stepping on a snake. But I think a lot more people are going to have to be bitten before that happens:(