Urges

[ClownWithafrown]

Hi guys I have been here for a while reading.

I am a guy in his twenties who has issues with Sex addiction and "Urges"

once again I have not acted them out!

I am going to go to a Counselor who deals with this kind of stuff.

You know how they say that no matter what you will slip up, well i figure that is just the ones who don't seek help. I mean there has to be a fighting chance.

I am also trying to use Citalapram in high doses to chemically castrate myself.

My wife knows since I tell her everything and she is supportive. Thank God

It is just rough I mean you see Law and Order SVU and they say that you are destined to slip.

I have to believe we have a choice in the matter.

Although I have accepted the title I don't want to write it

1. Its hard to admit

2. afraid of Big Brother watching lol

I dont really know what caused it, I have been this way my whole life. for the record I am also attracted to women my own age and older.

I also have fantisies of rape.

Going to go to counciling and go to SA 3 times a week.

thanks again,

Clownwithafrown

[Symora]

Hi Clownwithafrown:( - welcome

I think you've very wise to go see a councellor to discuss this. Overcoming urges is very difficult on our own, we need others to help us understand what is happening, people who will support us in our journey of overcoming them. You're lucky that your wife understands and supports you, I'm certain that makes a big difference.

Hope you find what you need here...

[eNIGMA]

Heya! Welcome aboard. I know we already started squabbling religion for no reason, but it's good to have more people around to discuss things with. I've only been here a few days myself, but have been lurking the boards for several months.

I had the same issues number 1) and 2) as you seem to.

First, I hate admitting to myself that I'm attracted to young girls and hate the word pedophile due to it's connotations, so I never use it. And secondly, it took me so long to talk to a councilor or post online for fear of the Big Brother thing as well.

I would never hurt anyone or anything. I mean I'm vegan for crying out loud. Respect for all living creatures and all that. But part of my inner struggle is that I don't really feel that I'm 'wrong' to be attracted. So, I beat myself up a lot about it and come here to vent.

Hopefully you will feel comfortable doing the same with regard to your problems. If big brother is watching, then I also have some unpaid parking tickets. Bring it.

[ClownWithafrown]

Yeah enigma we have had some fun jabs lol

I know what you mean about the negative connotations that come along with the term. Me on the other hand love to eat animal meat lol

I like the term though because it is an accurate term the MS4 or whatever it is called. Shame the TV has turned it into a curse word and mutilated the definition.

I hate these urges and am looking forward to having either them eliminated or the inability to act them out (chemical castration)

My doctor and I are working on a med regiment that will work.

May just bite the bullet and get the Depo shot.

Clown

[eNIGMA]

I don't think I've got the nerve to deal with this medically. I mean, I'm trying to deal with the surrounding crap like depression, anxiety, self-isolation, and taking meds for those plus sleeping pills for my sleep issues...

But I'm attracted to what I'm attracted to. I certainly feel guilty to be in public knowing I'm 'looking' at some girl in a grocery store or something, but that has more to do with them not purposefully seeking my attention. That's part of the reason I almost never leave my place.

I have had to resist certain situations where I actually had someone rather young in the neighborhood who would stop by constantly to flirt and play with my dog. She's 12, and I've also seen her and her friends flashing cars as they drive by. I hate that I have to pretend to be busy or change the conversation. That's what bugs me. I can't just be myself. I have to conform to some falsehood about kids not being able to handle making decisions about their own bodies.

It's all crap. Tell that to Spain, where their age of consent is 13 and their rate of teen pregnancies makes ours (highest in the developed world) look like we're raising little hookers.

I'm tired of it being MY fault when someone's 14 year old daughter gets naked on her web cam. Poor kid gets busted on federal production and distribution and has to register as a sex offender for most of her adult life. That sort of thing is a family problem, with a government solution that doesn't at all fit the crime.

It seems incredibly stupid to me. Witch trials all over again.

[Symora]

Enigma, that post upset me. These kids are just starting to experiment with what it means to be a woman. They are playing, like one would with a barbie, except they are playing at being women with their own bodies. One would hope that an adult male would be concious enough to understand the immaturity of the act...

'I have to conform to some falsehood about kids not being able to handle making decisions about their own bodies.'

This is upset me the most... Are you aware of what you just said???? Falsehood of kids not being able to make decision about their own bodies... They are children, which means they don't have the maturity or life experience to make good decisions about their own bodies and sexuality, that's why adults continue to be there to protect them at that tender age, because they are unable to take care of themselves or to make informed decisions because they don't understand the world yet, men, sexuality ... I could go on but I better stop here ...

[ClownWithafrown]

So enigma if I am hearing you right you are blaming society and the child?

(not trying to be antagonizing)

I have to disagree with this I think it is US who have the responsibility to stay away. I do agree that its messed up that Halloween costumes have gotten more explicit to put it kindly. There used to be Princess costumes now it's the slutty nurse costume. (not being sexist but these costumes are marketed as such)

Spain has a lower age of consent? that does not make it any difference to me. There is a reason we have age of consent laws. So that little girls and boys are not sleeping with adults and in my book this is a good idea.

We are in the wrong we are sick weather or not we were born like this we must face it and restrain our selves.

Clown w/

[danni]

Hi all,

I work in the human service field and a part of my job is supporting sexual offenders to live in the community. I also see them for therapy on an individual basis. (people who have been charged or convicted with a sex offense)

Don't put too much stock in shows like SVU. Those are created for entertainment purposes and don't necessarily depict real life accurately.

In all the years I've done this work, I've only had 2 people re-offend. So...I think that that is good evidence that with the right support, these guys can have a happy and productive life. A big piece of it is to know what their triggers are, identify them quickly when they are encountered, and have the apporpriate thought stoppers/safety plan/coping strategies to prevent reoffending. When this becomes "habit", they have been very successful at not reoffending.

You have not committed an offence. You seem very self-aware and you are seeking help. These are all a very good step towards keeping yourself and others safe. I commend you for that. What kind of therapy are you doing. DBT has been showing some strong evidence of success for people with your concerns.

[eNIGMA]

This is upset me the most... Are you aware of what you just said????

Of course I'm aware of what I said.

Facts are facts, and all you've given me in defense of your opinion are more opinions. Tell me why it is, then, that the US has one of the highest ages of consent in the world, yet our teen pregnancy rate is 75.4 girls per 1000. The highest in the developed world.

Spain has an age of consent of just 13, yet only have 12.4 pregnancies per 1000. The difference is, here in the US, parents live in some alternate reality where their kids need to be sheltered from their own sexuality instead of educated about it.

So when I say "I have to conform to some falsehood about kids not being able to handle making decisions about their own bodies," it's based on the fact that kids ARE capable of making decisions.

that's why adults continue to be there to protect them at that tender age, because they are unable to take care of themselves or to make informed decisions because they don't understand the world yet

So let me get this straight. Your idea of protecting a young girl who gets frisky on a web cam is by registering her as a sex offender for most of her life. Making her family move because she can't live within 1,000 feet of a school. Then having the government spend even more money housing 1/4 of the world's prison population to fix family problems by locking up non-violent offenders who saw the video.

You don't think that she'd be humiliated beyond belief? And for what? Nudity? Expressing some sexuality? What about if she fooled around with some guy twice her age that she had a crush on? Not even talking intercourse (which I'm against personally). Then they lock him up for a very long time - How's that make her feel? Who's damaging whom?

I'm sorry you may not like the subject, or what I have to say about it. Hey, the south wasn't too thrilled when people started talking about freeing the slaves either.

And please, bring more than societal rhetoric and territorial parental chest-pounding next time.

[ClownWithafrown]

Although I disagree with enigma his arguments are based on something more then opinion.

Not saying I agree but his arguments are well done.

[eNIGMA]

So enigma if I am hearing you right you are blaming society and the child?

No worries. It's not about "blame", per se. I'm not pointing fingers as to why I am the way I am. I just am. It's natural for me to be me, and I am a kind, loving person.

My argument has more to do with who's actually doing "harm". And that answer is absolutely society. Spain's age of consent may not matter to you, but what it indicates should be rather apparent, as I explained in that last post I just made.

We criminalize sexuality instead of just criminalizing "harmful" behavior. Rape. Murder. These are crimes. People need to acknowledge that THEY are responsible for the fact that children in this country are unequipped to handle reality.

Now, I'm not talking about letting 10 year old prostitutes wander the street here people. I'm saying that nature, over the existence of humankind, has already developed a complicated hormonal system of initiating sexual curiosity for the preservation of the species. What we have failed to do as a society, is provide a safe environment for children to ask questions at their own speed and without shame.

Like I've said before, our values are backwards. I can go online and watch a reporter get beheaded by terrorists. Free speech. I can download a video of some kid committing suicide. No problems there. We glorify murder in rap songs, books, movies, and television, but then arrest you for a picture of the naked human body.

/headdesk

EDIT:

I'm not saying I don't feel guilty, either. I certainly do - Whether it's because society raised me to feel that way, or not. It's emotional ping-pong up in my brains day and night. If I could choose to not be attracted to younger girls, I would.

Also, sorry for coming off a bit strong in my arguments. I mean no disrespect Symora, but can get a bit irritated if I feel I have been disrespected (like being called immature for having an unpopular belief about sexuality). You have to understand, my entire life I've had to listen to people say such things as they continue to confuse their maternal/paternal instinct with actual logic. I have never once been free to point it out because it is so taboo to even question such things.

[ClownWithafrown]

I agree we underestimate girls these days.

but judging from your posts you are attracted to girls of ages 15-18?

If so I understand where your logic.

My problem is centered on ages 8-14 so it is a lot different.

I can understand girls in high school should have the right to have sex with who ever they chose. Heck when I was in High school most of the girls where having sex probably 89% and half of them where probably sleeping with someone over 21. Like I said different story where high school people I believe can consent middle school aged people can't.

[eNIGMA]

I agree we underestimate girls these days.

but judging from your posts you are attracted to girls of ages 15-18?

If so I understand where your logic.

Nah, it's mostly younger for me as well, but I'm still attracted to some adults. It's not totally exclusive for me. Not that I'm like super proud finding preteens attractive. But you'd be surprised (or maybe not) what 8-12 year old girls are doing on video networking sites like Stickam when their parents aren't looking.

Most of the points are still valid either way. Would you want your kid doing it? Probably not. Should people be getting thrown in prison over it? In my opinion, no. Nor do I think the kid deserves to be labeled a sex offender under any circumstance. The punishments are ridiculous, and are the cause of more harm than some voluntary display of exhibitionism.

People have different motives for their attraction, though. I just find that age group to be beautiful. I don't want have sex with them and physically injure them, or murder them or anything like that. But would I be able to stop myself if she initiated something a bit inappropriate? Because it's happened to me, like I said, and I was able to at the time. If something had happened, though, would I really deserve to be treated like a murder or worse?

It's not like I'm like most 33 year old guys. I had sex with 1 girl for the 2 years we were together (and very seldom did the 2nd year because of my issues, which is why she left). I've kissed two people in my life. Most teens are probably more sexually experienced than I am.

But I digress. I just don't see anything wrong with attraction and sexuality in general, so long as there's no harmful intent. The perception of evil with regard to this is rooted in societal / religious opinion, not in any law of nature.

[ClownWithafrown]

I don't agree

we are more advanced mentally then animals (except maybe dolphins)

Just because we evolved with the ability to have sex at an early age does not mean we are mentally prepared. The ability to breed early in life probably served well when we where only living to 30. Now that we have evolved to the point of having complex emotions we have a responsibility to not act on our animal nature.

What keeps people from being sociopaths? Emotions and a conscious?

Some country's (don't ask for a list because I am much to lazy to do the google search) still marry only for producing an heir and for monetary reasoning's.

Not trying to offend but some of these arguments reach from NAMbLA pamphlets.

Now I think you said you where agnostic so its hard for me to think of a rasional argument. I used to be atheist and didn't really care.

You say as long as no one is hurt.

What about people who are sexually attracted to animals? What are your views on this? It probably does not hurt a horse and under your reasoning this should be fine.

[eNIGMA]

Just because we evolved with the ability to have sex at an early age does not mean we are mentally prepared. The ability to breed early in life probably served well when we where only living to 30. Now that we have evolved to the point of having complex emotions we have a responsibility to not act on our animal nature.

That's still only opinion. "I like the color red. I think everything should be the color red." A fact would be, say, acknowledging that kids are generally capable of making informed decisions about their bodies... because they already do in other countries.

Hey, neat - They can also do math if you teach them how. Weird!

Take an extreme example here. Female genital mutilation. Still practiced in many parts of the world. Why the heck would they still be doing that, you might ask. Because they always have, that's why! Someone at some point thought "Hey, we have a responsibility to act against our animal nature and not let you have a clitoris". Good plan.

So what gives you the right to make decisions for other people? Or put people in prison for something that was a) consensual and none of your business to begin with?

It probably does not hurt a horse and under your reasoning this should be fine.

If all horses were Mister Ed, maybe they'd be asking for sex all the time, at which point - Knock Yourself Out. None of my business. But kids obviously not being horses, can speak English and tell you what's on their mind.

They're people.

Besides, a horse doesn't press itself up against your sliding glass door and ask if you like it's bathing suit either...

If a kid was getting picked on in school and decided to gun down a bunch of people one day, the news certainly wouldn't be talking about how "wellll he was too young to have done this by choice... those other people must have jumped in front of the bullets..."

So a kid can choose to go do something extremely violent and society will hold him accountable in some way. But if some girl decides this guy is cute and kisses him or something, it's all WHOA WHAT'S GOING ON HERE!? You're a precious little angel who can't make your own decisions! We're sending this guy to prison! Get my SCISSORS so i can cut off his testicles!

Burning witches. It's what mobs of people have done best since the dawn of 'unpopular opinion'.

Give me a damn break.

EDIT:

That's not a "give me a damn break" to you. That's a "give me a damn break" for the whole double standard thing.

[Symora]

Hi Enigma. When I read you I fell that you have found ways in your mind of excusing eventually having sex with a tween. You're intelligent, it's obvious, and proud to express rebellious views, and I can understand your rationalizations. I nevertheless think that you might benefit from investigating what happens long term to women who have sex too young. Research the girls in Ethiopia who are married very young and end up having so many problems. The damage it does to women's live in incalculable, because as Clownwithafrown mentions, we are no longer animals.... There is a soul tied to each one of those girls, and that gets damaged, as well as her sense of self-worth, self-esteem, girls get pregnant, they get diseases, or they become slaves to older men who hide their pedophelia behind traditional customs. It still happens in the world, but it's not right...

The world has changed. Some things are no longer OK. We now know how these things affect women long term, and the world has recognized that their needs count too. Systems are trying to change to better women's status, including her being reduced to only being an object of sexual desire. I am worried about the strong focus on <anything goes in the west>. I find the sexualization of young women is promoted in the media, and even models are often built like very young women. I see it as another way that society is perpetuating the subjugation of women - woman's right are far from being won all over the world...

Girls do use the internet to promote themselves sexually, although I am certain that they are much less aware of what the consequences are than what you might think. I remember being about 14, and standing near the door of my garage wearing short shorts of the time - I was a pretty good looker, tall for my age. Construction trucks would go by and I liked when they tuted their horns at me, made me aware that I had some new power that I had never experiences before - I liked the new attention. This said, I was still intellectually a child and understood very little about the world. I was naive and if any one of those men had approached me I would have been as a child before him... I know that times have changed and kids are wiser and more sexualized today, but I still maintain that the 12 year old who is wearing makeup and making herself pretty is immitation her latest idol on MuchMusic and playing at being a woman. I speak as a woman and I know of what I speak.

We may never see eye to eye on this Enigma, and that's OK. My hope is that the first thing you will eventually see in a young girl is innocence and naivete, someone to be protected from things she is not ready for .... eyes of compassion...

[eNIGMA]

Hi Enigma. When I read you I fell that you have found ways in your mind of excusing eventually having sex with a tween. You're intelligent, it's obvious, and proud to express rebellious views, and I can understand your rationalizations. I nevertheless think that you might benefit from investigating what happens long term to women who have sex too young.

I definitely rationalize. I think I talk about that somewhere in my first post in the new member's section, but the problem is some of the rationalizations actually make sense to a degree. I'm a logical person, and having had such conflicting thoughts for such a long time, what you're getting in this thread is more of my analytical devil's advocate side. Mainly because it has nowhere else to vent.

As for sex with a tween, it's not something I ever specifically fantasize about. Sex for me was always held as more of a spiritual moment between two people in love, and I honestly can't see myself ever being romantically involved with someone so young. I fantasize more about, let's say, the first few bases, but with no focus on me. I'm not interested in being sexually gratified.

Alright, here's a quick story - I'll try not to be graphic at all.

When I was a senior in high school, I was fairly popular. A lot of girls probably liked me, but I was pretty shy and had never kissed or dated anyone. I was part of just about every crowd in one way or another, being in all the top classes, sports teams, gaming clubs, singer in a band, etc.

So one day I'm sitting around bored and get a phone call from this friend of mine. I'm 18 and she's a freshman, 14 at the time. She was dating this other kid I knew. Anyhow, she said she was having some people over, and I should stop by. Cool. I head over to her place, knock, but no one answers. Door's open, so I walk in, but no one's there. I get down to her room, and her and her best friend are on her bed eating raspberry fluff off each other. This is 100% true, I can't make this stuff up lol - They tell me they invited me over because I was "f_ckable", and told me to have a seat. So I did. It was crazy. They did just about anything you can think of, and totally got off on the fact that I was sitting there watching.

And that's it.

Now. My question then becomes, what was so "wrong" about that. Who got hurt? Should I have been disgusted instead? If they were 1 or 2 years younger, would it have suddenly become this intolerable and disgusting thing to watch? How much younger, then - 10 days, 10 weeks, 10 months? What if one of them wanted me to touch her, now I'm a rapist?

Why would you want me to go to prison? What did I honestly do to deserve it? Could you, to my face, wave some magic wand and take those years off my life just like that? Because supporting the laws that are in place now, is no different than turning the key yourself.

It's absolutely not right. These are people's lives we're talking about here. This is free will. To use a loose analogy, people want their hamburgers but they don't want to kill the cow. If you can hold the knife and cut it's throat, then by all means, have a hamburger.

That's why I'm vegan. And that's why I don't support sentences that do not fit their crimes. Because in realizing that I simply couldn't kill the cow or turn the key, what makes it morally right for me to encourage and support the system by buying into the product.

Anyhow, I don't think kids should be getting married or thinking in any terms of commitment. But I don't think harmless sex play is worthy of federal prosecution either.

We are no longer animals.... There is a soul tied to each one of those girls, and that gets damaged, as well as her sense of self-worth, self-esteem, girls get pregnant, they get diseases

We are mammals. We are animals, with very real and very complicated biological and chemical reactions. If someone slipped, say, LSD into your drink, you'd realize just how chemical-based your reality is. And yes there is a soul tied to each of those girls. That soul has free will. And the damage often comes about not from innocent and natural sex play, but the shame, guilt, intolerance, and pressures of society.

Pregnancy and disease. Let's go back a page to:

the US has one of the highest ages of consent in the world, yet our teen pregnancy rate is 75.4 girls per 1000. The highest in the developed world.

Spain has an age of consent of just 13, yet only have 12.4 pregnancies per 1000.

And here's just some wiki info someone can crosscheck if they want - References are listed, but I haven't verified.

Taken from here

The Netherlands

Subsidized by the Dutch government, the “Lang leve de liefde” (“Long Live Love”) package, developed in the late 1980s, aims to give teenagers the skills to make their own decisions regarding health and sexuality. Professor Brett van den Andrews, a medical research scientist who graduated from ISHSS (International School for Humanities and Social Sciences), has suggested that exposing children aged 4–7 to sex education will greatly reduce the risk of future pregnancies and health issues. His theories have been the subject of much scrutiny under the NIGS (Netherlands Institute of Geooracular Sciences). Nonetheless, he is widely appreciated in the medical society and has been featured in many medical journals. Nearly all secondary schools provide sex education as part of biology classes and over half of primary schools discuss sexuality and contraception. The curriculum focuses on biological aspects of reproduction as well as on values, attitudes, communication and negotiation skills. The media has encouraged open dialogue and the health-care system guarantees confidentiality and a non-judgmental approach. The Netherlands has one of the lowest teenage pregnancy rates in the world, and the Dutch approach is often seen as a model for other countries.

United States

"...However, the U.S. still has the highest teen birth rate and one of the highest rates of STIs among teens in the industrialized world..."

I don't know - Have a comprehensive class, and you get a "Sex License" at the end of it. Kind of like a driver's license ;P

The world has changed. Some things are no longer OK. We now know how these things affect women long term, and the world has recognized that their needs count too. Systems are trying to change to better women's status, including her being reduced to only being an object of sexual desire. I am worried about the strong focus on <anything goes in the west>. I find the sexualization of young women is promoted in the media, and even models are often built like very young women. I see it as another way that society is perpetuating the subjugation of women - woman's right are far from being won all over the world...

The world is constantly changing for sure. I probably will not live to see the day, but I'm willing to bet that laws will eventually change in favor of both children's and women's rights. It may be hard to imagine, but I bet as religious stigmas and prejudices filter through our laws and we come closer to a true separation of church and state, we will see changes in attitude with the way women and children are perceived by society.

I agree with your comments on the media. Every web page you go to, there's some sexy picture of a woman trying to sell you things. It's probably been that way since the dawn of advertising, and it directly relates to the fact that we are animals, at the end of the day. Companies are driven by profit, and males are driven (in part) by sex, try as we might to deny that.

[EDIT: oops forgot to trim]

Girls do use the internet to promote themselves sexually, although I am certain that they are much less aware of what the consequences are than what you might think. I remember being about 14, and standing near the door of my garage wearing short shorts of the time - I was a pretty good looker, tall for my age. Construction trucks would go by and I liked when they tuted their horns at me, made me aware that I had some new power that I had never experiences before - I liked the new attention. This said, I was still intellectually a child and understood very little about the world

They may not be aware of the consequences, for sure. It's fun for them; experimenting with new power, like you mention. Yet the US government will register her as a sex offender. And that is an extremely damaging attitude to have with regard to a girl and the future of her emotional/sexual development.

I also don't expect to walk up to a girl I've never met. But I don't know if you realize how difficult it is to pretend to not notice this girl as she presses her chest up against my sliding glass door and asks if I like her bathing suit. I feel like the damn victim here.

We may never see eye to eye on this Enigma, and that's OK. My hope is that the first thing you will eventually see in a young girl is innocence and naivete, someone to be protected from things she is not ready for .... eyes of compassion...

I'm not attracted to the sexy advertisements. I'm not attracted to makeup and high heels. I love pure and natural beauty. The problem is exactly what you said... the first thing I see in a young girl is innocence and naivete. It reminds me of me, and of everything I've ever been attracted to. My tastes have never changed.

Anyhow, if anything, go back up to my story about the fluff and tell me you could lock me in prison. If you could turn the key yourself, then so be it. If not, then you do not support the law in it's current format.

[Symora]

Your right, I don't support the law in its current format. If in fact it's true that girls get criminally charged for the things you say, I think it is a mistake. I don't know much about that area to tell you the trust. It sounds a awful lot to me like the war on drugs, it makes no sense to me the ways americans are approaching the issue... It will never be effective anyway. To me it is a way to maintain the production of armaments and an excuse to enter and be forceful in other nations. I agree that education is a much better approach and probably the only effective one. Europeans have a more mature approach to many of these issues - they have a longer history and have learned lessons from their past perhaps.

I think it may be wise to cool down media references to sexuality and objectifying bodies - it's become like an obsession. I look at mainstream MuchMusic and it's like going to porno club in my youth. I don't particularly have any problem with sex, but for god's sake it is not the be and end all of life! There may be some wisdom in covering ourselves up a little more, so that sexual provocation is not the first instinct one elicits, and telling our girls and boys to do that as well would be wise - not to be prudish, but to take the emphasis off physical provocation. Things are all upside down in my eyes. Children who know nothing of life are now being dominant and arrogant, and parents don't seem to know how or are often unable to enforce boundaries, especially when it comes to such things as the use of the internet. I am glad I'm not not raising kids today in north america ...

I get your story and how confusing that would be from a moral standpoint. Still, I maintain that we are no longer <just> animals, and that the advancement of our species into a workable civilization is dependent upon our capacity to restrain our animal selves and give more power to our higher functions. Sex is fine and good but it is one aspect of who we are, albeit a powerful one....

[eNIGMA]

Your right, I don't support the law in its current format. If in fact it's true that girls get criminally charged for the things you say, I think it is a mistake. I don't know much about that area to tell you the trust. It sounds a awful lot to me like the war on drugs, it makes no sense to me the ways americans are approaching the issue... It will never be effective anyway. To me it is a way to maintain the production of armaments and an excuse to enter and be forceful in other nations. I agree that education is a much better approach and probably the only effective one. Europeans have a more mature approach to many of these issues - they have a longer history and have learned lessons from their past perhaps.

Definitely - The war on drugs seems noble on the surface, which is why it gets so much support. No one wants their kids doing drugs, therefor let's make them illegal. The problem is, the real war is not being fought. That's the one where parents educate their children on the dangers and act as good role models. People who want to use, are going to use whether it's legal or not. No need to fill jail cells with addicts or some guys growing their own weed in the basement. Addicts need treatment and support. Dealers? I think it depends on the drug personally. Not sure where I stand on that.

Unfortunately, most of the US will prosecute underage children for production and distribution of child porn if they get caught. Here's just the first link that came up: Click Meh! Again, who wants their kid doing this? No one, I suppose. So let's make it illegal and punish them? And if you disagree, then you're a pervert? It doesn't seem the right approach to me. Granted, I am biased. I wish I weren't, but it is what it is. Like the war on drugs (which I don't use and have no bias), it seems more appropriate to handle this as a family problem.

As for the fluff story, if I had done anything, I doubt the charges would have been so severe - I'm not sure. Statutory Rape or something? Probably would still need to register as a sex offender. Either way, there's a lot of gray area that parents wouldn't approve of their kids doing, yet isn't necessarily "harmful" in and of itself. The legal system isn't setup to handle it correctly, imo.

I think it may be wise to cool down media references to sexuality and objectifying bodies - it's become like an obsession. I look at mainstream MuchMusic and it's like going to porno club in my youth. I don't particularly have any problem with sex, but for god's sake it is not the be and end all of life! There may be some wisdom in covering ourselves up a little more, so that sexual provocation is not the first instinct one elicits, and telling our girls to that as well would be wise. But things are all upside down in my eyes. Children who know nothing of life are now being dominant and arrogant, and parents don't seem to know how to enforce boudaries, especially when it comes to such things as the use of the internet. I am glad I'm not not raising kids today in north america ...

Truth. And people wonder why there was a stage full of 7 year old girls dressed like hookers dry-humping to Beyonce's "Single Ladies"? Really? Look around. Sure, they're super talented, but all of these 'role models' are lousy.

I get your story and how confusing that would be from a moral standpoint. Still, I maintain that we are no longer <just> animals, and that the advancement of our species into a workable civilization is dependent upon our capacity to restrain our animal selves and give more power to our higher functions. Sex is fine and good but it is one aspect of who we are, albeit a powerful one....

I know what you're saying about the animal thing. I was just trying to illustrate the point about how it can be difficult for someone like me with an attraction I guess. Especially if trouble comes looking for me. =/ I'm a good person with a kind heart, but I'm still human. Anyhow, thanks for letting me vent. Living like this gets rather stressful.

[notmary]

In reading what you have written I am sickened- not in the attractions you have, I realize that you can't help what you are attracted to- but in the rationalizations that you are putting forth about why you should be able to act on these attractions.

You are a human being and an adult human being. You have the ability to choose exactly how you are going to act and as an adult you should make those choices with an understanding of the consequences. A fourteen year old also has the ability to choose how he/she will act but in genera lacks the maturity to appreciate the consequences of those actions. Even as an 18 year old, who generally is thinking a lot more with other body parts than his brain, is expected to remove himself from a situation like the "fluff" situation because he has reached the age of consent and the children involved have not. Obviously these 14 year old girls were more mature in general than many 14 year olds, but the law has never been able to look at individual cases. These laws have been put in place to protect children who may have physically mature bodies but emotionally immature brains. Most people recognize the absurdity of how these laws are sometimes applied to teenagers who are with other teenagers. I think that there is a huge difference between an 18 year old not being able to resist the sexual behavior of the 14 year old girl and an older more mature adult...as you say you are. There is no rationalization for you becoming sexually involved with a teenager.

[eNIGMA]

In reading what you have written I am sickened- not in the attractions you have, I realize that you can't help what you are attracted to- but in the rationalizations that you are putting forth about why you should be able to act on these attractions.

Oh boi - here we go again.

You are a human being and an adult human being. You have the ability to choose exactly how you are going to act and as an adult you should make those choices with an understanding of the consequences. A fourteen year old also has the ability to choose how he/she will act but in genera lacks the maturity to appreciate the consequences of those actions.

Cool. So it's your job to make decisions for everyone. I'll write that down so I don't forget.

Even as an 18 year old, who generally is thinking a lot more with other body parts than his brain, is expected to remove himself from a situation like the "fluff" situation because he has reached the age of consent and the children involved have not.

Find me one 18 year old that would have left, and I'll mail you a cookie. I was a virgin by choice until 28, if you bothered to read anything before you posted. So you think I let my body parts do all of my thinking?

You would want to lock me up in prison for doing something that wasn't harmful, and wasn't any of your business? You're pretty cold-hearted. I hope they make that a federal offense someday too, so you can see what it's like.

Obviously these 14 year old girls were more mature in general than many 14 year olds, but the law has never been able to look at individual cases. These laws have been put in place to protect children who may have physically mature bodies but emotionally immature brains. Most people recognize the absurdity of how these laws are sometimes applied to teenagers who are with other teenagers. I think that there is a huge difference between an 18 year old not being able to resist the sexual behavior of the 14 year old girl and an older more mature adult...as you say you are. There is no rationalization for you becoming sexually involved with a teenager.

First off, these 14 year old girls were not that much different than the many others today that are having sex. Sorry to burst your bubble. Second, you have absolutely 0 facts backing up any of your opinions. If you want me to take you seriously, you'll have to do better than spout off "your version of how the world should be".

I think we should all have purple hair and be awesome at darts. So there.

EDIT:

Hey, while we're at it, let's make downloading and watching a beheading video - the kind where the guy squeals and gurgles as they saw off his head with a dull knife - illegal. Why not? Sounds awful doesn't it? Oh, then since obviously murder is such a terrible thing anyhow, let's make drawings, comics, and any visual depictions of it illegal as well. Cool, so no more Hollywood... most video games are out... Hmm. Nope, most comics are out too... We're on a roll! Cleaning up the scum.

And since we don't want kids exposed to sex, let's enact a dress code. No bikinis or mini-skirts for anyone. It just sends the wrong message. Oh and a federally mandated curfew, so parents don't have to bother with enforcing that themselves anymore either... let's see... And to make sure they're getting enough nutrition at home, let's make fast food illegal as well. It's just making america's kids fat and bringing up the cost of health care... so no more of that... Sodas and Colas are out...

Hmm... The internet. We'll make that illegal. Too many ways for kids to get access to information that hasn't been cleared by the state. We can't have people questioning the rules - that would just lead to chaos. We'll create a new national religion too. This "God" character is dangerous with his "do not judge others" nonsense. We'll make it illegal for people to worship any other religion than the one we make. That should help unite everyone... Hmm... What else...

Oh, I know! We could just accept that people have different moral outlooks on sexuality, and just because you might not want your kid doing something, doesn't mean it should be illegal. They can watch people get beheaded on the internet, they can watch a video of some other kid committing suicide. All legal and easily accessible. God forbid they express any sexuality, though. That's just too terrible a thing.

[notmary]

Ouch... I didn't realize that my words could enflame such anger in you.

Oh well... let's review. I didn't say that I wanted to make decisions for everyone else. I said that it is up to the mature adult to make the decisions that protect children. You can reread what you copied from my message to see that.

I also said that most rational adults see a big difference between an 18 year old acting on his desires with a 14 year old and a 30 something year old man which I believe is what you are. ( if I am wrong I am sorry).

Frankly I don't expect you to take me seriously because I completely disagree with your rationalizations that adults having sexual relationships with teens is ok. You can spout your statistics I could spout mine... we won't agree.

[eNIGMA]

You can spout your statistics I could spout mine... we won't agree.

Please do. I'd love to hear about how a high age of consent, no standard in sex education, and a social stigma that makes girls feel ashamed and labels them whores and sluts is actually healthy, while teen pregnancy and STD rates are through the roof. I'd love to hear about people's lives that were made better when one person in a consensual relationship gets locked up for statutory, or a kid gets in trouble for 'sexting'.

We don't have to agree, and I've said that from the beginning. But the law shouldn't be making these rules. You should. For your family.

Edit:

I didn't say that I wanted to make decisions for everyone else. I said that it is up to the mature adult to make the decisions that protect children. You can reread what you copied from my message to see that.

Oh, sorry about that. You just want to lock people in prison if they don't make the decisions you want. It's a subtle difference, but I get it now.

Look, you're the one who started off with "In reading what you have written I am sickened", which sets the tone for your whole post. If you want to argue with your emotions, don't be surprised if I call you on it.

You also talk about "a big difference between an 18 year old acting on his desires with a 14 year old and a 30 something year old man". What's this magical age I was supposed to have disavowed any attractions from my youth? I have the sexual experience of a 10th grader, look like I did when I was 20, and have nothing at all in common with people my own age. I have a different perspective. And at the end of the day, the facts still support most of my outlook.

[ClownWithafrown]

Enigma

Statistics can be faked (ie. Global warming)

Last time I checked Spain is not as industrialized as the US.

We protect are youngins we realize kids make bad decisions.

adults with our problem are more at risk of becoming predatory, Sucks but it seems to be how it works.

Beheading? seeing a video or pic of a beheading does not make most people want to go and act it out. The same cant be said of child porn. Should girls that produce nude and sexual images of them self online be prosecuted.... no but their parents should have their head examined. Should a guy who purposely goes looking for them or convinces them to do it go to jail? probably not but they should be put on the list and have mandatory therapy.

Should the list be public hell no I have never witnessed or heard of anyone using the list for anything more then finger pointing and violence.

Why you have a need to defend these acts is beyond me.

Do you have a statistic of people who use statistics to defend their rationizations?

would like to know do you think nambla is a bad organization?

Clown

[eNIGMA]

would like to know do you think nambla is a bad organization?

I don't know a thing about nambla. Are they doing anything against someone's will? Is it any of my business? If the answers are no, then I'm indifferent. Good / Bad is not for me to judge. If there's a God, I'm sure he probably mentioned in his God Manual that he doesn't appreciate the help on that - He's got it covered.

Beheading? seeing a video or pic of a beheading does not make most people want to go and act it out. The same cant be said of child porn.

I would just assume that you have some facts to back that up, but I know you don't. Let me see if I can find something.

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2006/07/060727162108.htm

"The researchers' conclusion

They conclude that the existing video game rating system, the content of much entertainment media, and the marketing of those media combine to produce "a powerful desensitization intervention on a global level."

Huh, interesting. In less than 2 minutes, I was able to find research showing how a violent video game desensitizes you to actual violence. By that rationale, extremely violent content like actual murders and suicides would have similar effect.

But you're right. We don't have problems with kids killing each other in our schools, so who cares. :eek:

As for CP... The only people interested in watching it are already going to watch it. Same with drugs - If they were legal to use, I would still have no interest in doing them. I went looking for it because of what I am. I am not what I am because I found it. Besides, you already know how I feel about rape and abuse videos. I've already talked about that. If the courts already have the power to judge the ages of animated characters and send you to prison... Pretty sure they could handle distinguishing between harmless sexting/video and rape/abuse.

Statistics can be faked (ie. Global warming)

Then find me some statistics to the contrary, and link your references. I'm not just pulling stuff out of my ass here. Nor would you if you were trying to make a sound point.

Last time I checked Spain is not as industrialized as the US.

When exactly is the last time you checked? Just curious. And if you scroll down a bit here:

"The UN HDI is a statistical measure that gauges a country's level of human development. While there is a strong correlation between having a high HDI score and a prosperous economy, the UN points out that the HDI accounts for more than income or productivity. Unlike GDP per capita or per capita income, the HDI takes into account how income is turned "into education and health opportunities and therefore into higher levels of human development."

United States 13th, Spain 15th. Know who apparently beats them both? The Netherlands at #6. Do you also need me to relink their sex education in elementary schools, age of consent, and marginal teen pregnancy/STI rates again? Here, just in case:

The Netherlands

Subsidized by the Dutch government, the “Lang leve de liefde” (“Long Live Love”) package, developed in the late 1980s, aims to give teenagers the skills to make their own decisions regarding health and sexuality. Professor Brett van den Andrews, a medical research scientist who graduated from ISHSS (International School for Humanities and Social Sciences), has suggested that exposing children aged 4–7 to sex education will greatly reduce the risk of future pregnancies and health issues. His theories have been the subject of much scrutiny under the NIGS (Netherlands Institute of Geooracular Sciences). Nonetheless, he is widely appreciated in the medical society and has been featured in many medical journals. Nearly all secondary schools provide sex education as part of biology classes and over half of primary schools discuss sexuality and contraception. The curriculum focuses on biological aspects of reproduction as well as on values, attitudes, communication and negotiation skills. The media has encouraged open dialogue and the health-care system guarantees confidentiality and a non-judgmental approach. The Netherlands has one of the lowest teenage pregnancy rates in the world, and the Dutch approach is often seen as a model for other countries.

United States

"...However, the U.S. still has the highest teen birth rate and one of the highest rates of STIs among teens in the industrialized world..."

We protect are youngins we realize kids make bad decisions.

No, we don't protect them - We endanger them. We lie to them. We're a pregnant teen factory because of it. By demonizing sexuality and perpetuating ridiculous ideals like abstinence instead of teaching young children about sex, protection, and responsibility, we've got all these time bombs running around with no clue what the hell they're doing.

Why you have a need to defend these acts is beyond me.

I have a need to defend free will. I have a need to show people that, other than their own biased opinions, they have no rational ground to state that a child is incapable of making decisions about his or her own body. My opinion is also biased, but fortunately for me, the data agrees with my opinion.

Do you have a statistic of people who use statistics to defend their rationizations?

Nope. But how about, say, a statistic on how often a person on the losing side of a debate resorts to "I know you are but what am I" tactics.

PS

Should girls that produce nude and sexual images of them self online be prosecuted.... no but their parents should have their head examined. Should a guy who purposely goes looking for them or convinces them to do it go to jail? probably not but they should be put on the list and have mandatory therapy. Should the list be public hell no I have never witnessed or heard of anyone using the list for anything more then finger pointing and violence.

^See, now this is the beginning of a rational compromise. Anyhow, my sig has a pretty relevant quote from Thomas Paine...