Mania and Spirituality

[Luna-]

I found a most interesting article on the spirituality of manic insight.

Does anyone else here know that feeling, in euphoric mania, of being at one with the universe, of seeing the connectedness of all things and experiencing the majestic unity and magnificence of creation and being an integral part of it, blended into it? That feeling that everything is following a divine plan and is as it should be, all living things together in the natural order of things, plants, animals, humans?

I never labelled this "mania" until 2 years ago when the pdoc I was seeing for depression called it that and said I had Bipolar 1. What a shock. But those experiences were undeniably real experiences and far more than mere psychopathology.

I am not very religious and even my connection with spirituality has been very tenuous in recent years. But that feeling and this article really resonated with me and validated what I feel in mania. It extends the purely psychiatric paradigm into spirituality.

Does God Have a Place in Psychiatric Treatment Plans?

By Victoria Maxwell.

[shanrucas]

Hi Luna,

I think I know what you mean, as I look back and think about it, I remember being in that kinda of euphoric mania, where everything is well with the universe. Although for me this is far and few in between, I love life when euphoric, I will spend hours on horseback in awe that this animal will allow me to be on its back and take far into the woods where all the sounds and wildlife are ever so present....but then it doesn't last, I have bipolor 2, so I tend to have rapid cycles, mostly I have dysphoric mania, if any of that makes sense. I long for the euphoria, where I love everything and everybody.

I don't know if this is true of everyone we are all still such individuals, but it will be interesting to see how many have experienced this

Shannon

"I'm learning to fly but I ain't got wings, coming down is the hardest thing". -Tom Petty

[spiritual_emergency]

A link/story for you Luna and Shannon...

... Mania, in my experience of it, is a process of giving birth to hope in the soul. It is opposed from within by an equally intense nihilism and fear that the entire creation is nothing more than a cesspool of doom. Inner conflict can make a person labile. The cosmic grandiosity comes from trying to answer the question "Is the universe a friendly place or a hostile place?" This is ultimately a religious question, hence the preoccupation with spiritual and religious issues...

... Medical education does not prepare psychiatrists to deal with spirituality in human experience. In shaping human lives, spirituality is at least as powerful (and as subject to compulsiveness) as sexuality, and just as irresistible when intensely felt. It is expected that psychiatrists will be able to take sexual histories competently, but spiritual histories seem to be another matter. It saddens me to report that physicians were the main obstacle that I had to overcome on my quest for a hope-filled view of the world.

Source: Dr. Edward Whitney's Personal Account of Mania as Spiritual Emergency

See also: Sean: Mania as a Spiritual Experience

[shanrucas]

Thanks for the information SE, I find this quite fascinating..I hadn't given it much thought before until Luna brought it up.

Shannon

[spiritual_emergency]

Luna, I left some comments at Victoria's blog. Thanks for sharing the article.

I was quite intrigued by her statement: My psychosis involved images of God, the devil, allusions to birth and death and an intense focus on the nature of reality.

That's consistent with some aspects of my own experience. I also found this comment to be revealing: I originally shot into psychosis while meditating deeply...

Some people would say the fact that she experienced psychosis at all is evidence that she has a genetically based, biologically understood malfunction of her brain and/or neurochemistry. I would say that she collapsed her ego without any insight into what was happening or any framework for interpreting that experience.

... There are different ways of defining the ego but I define it thusly: The ego is a structure of the personality that is made up of what we believe to be true about ourselves, others, the world around us, and our place in it. We form these beliefs as based on our relationships, our experiences, the roles we play and the activities we engage in. All of these combined, create our ego -- which is, for most of us, our sense of who we are. I prefer to think of the ego in this regard as the little self.

When the ego collapses, fragments, or disintegrates, shadow and archetypal contents flood in from the personal and collective unconscious. Those are Jungian terms and I use them because it's the best model I've found thus far for explaining this experience to others. During psychosis, what is experienced and what is seen by the people around you, are fragments of the collapsed ego (one's shattered sense of self), shadow material (which produces fear, terror, paranoia, shame, etc.), and archetypal material, such as the sense that one is Jesus Christ, or Buddha, or God... or has just seen one of those figures get into a cab on 49th street.

Yet, each of those religious icons are also symbols of center which is where the larger Self resides. If you make it all the way through the unconscious to the center -- for a little while at least -- you don't just play God, you are God, because there is nothing left at that point to separate the I-from-The-Thou. Within an Eastern framework, this might be called Self-realization or God-realization. In the West, it's called delusions of grandeur.

There are a number of spiritual traditions that work to slowly polish these layers of selfhood away so as to come into contact with the pure source of the Absolute; meditation in the Buddhist tradition or contemplation in the Christian mysteries are two such examples. There are also various drugs that temporarily displace the ego allowing the numinous to shine in -- the use of peyote among Native Americans; LSD among university professors; ayahuasca among shamans of the Amazon. In addition, there are ritual activities one can engage in: kundalini yoga, drumming, chanting, sacred forms of dance, tantric love-making or creating a work of art. Note that none of these activities produce neurological dysfunction, they simply remove the ego -- one's sense of the little self -- from the larger equation.

Source: How To Produce An Acute Schizophrenic Break

Luna: I am not very religious and even my connection with spirituality has been very tenuous in recent years.

I was not a religious person previous to my experience although I've found it very necessary to explore various religions and spirituality as a means of understanding my experience -- Hinduism, Buddhism, Gnosticism and Christian Mysticism in particular. I've yet to choose one to follow however and doubt that I ever will. Rather, I had to go with the one symbol that was present in all of them which I continue to explore and learn from.

[Luna-]

Yeah, I recognised the themes as being ones you have spoken of, SE. I thought you'd be interested. The article got me thinking about spirituality and I tried to think back to when I last really felt that connection to something greater than myself. It was in mania. I miss it. I long back.

I don't really know where I was going with this thread ... looking for meaning, maybe.

[malign]

Luna,

Have you tried to reach this state consciously, from a non-manic point in the cycle?

I personally believe that at least some of what you experienced is spirituality; that we're connected to everything else and that the system, on the cosmic scale, can't help but be in balance {it's Everything; how would you unbalance Everything?}.

What religion, if any, one decides to organize around that feeling is entirely secondary, again in my opinion.

So, perhaps, there's a bit more to the experience? Because if that's mania, then essentially every mystic, every person who has ever felt themselves experiencing their spirituality first-hand, has been manic.

And correspondingly, perhaps the spirituality is reachable without the experience overflowing into mania.

[Luna-]

It has occurred to me, yes. SE mentioned a number of things earlier, one of which is meditation. I've been trying it. Of course my attention is scattered all over the place, but I guess it takes practice.

So, perhaps, there's a bit more to the experience? Because if that's mania, then essentially every mystic, every person who has ever felt themselves experiencing their spirituality first-hand, has been manic

Well, there were a few other things associated with the mania, not only the spiritual.

[malign]

Well, there were a few other things associated with the mania, not only the spiritual.

Do you think these "other things" worth exploring?

It seems to me that someone who suffers from bipolar would need tools to distinguish a spiritual euphoria from an out of control mania. Possibly similar (though probably different) markers would help someone trying to distinguish a psychotic or pre-psychotic episode from a spiritual one.

Or, I could be making distinctions that don't exist. ;-)

I'm just curious how you and others see this subject. I've been gradually approaching a spirituality of my own, from a lifetime of repression by my more logical side. So, I'm unfamiliar with my intuitive side, at least on the conscious level. I've had some comforting and transformative experiences while meditating, though I would hardly say that I meditate deeply, or often. I doubt that my experiences qualify as in any way manic, so I'm curious where the "boundary" (if any) might lie.

[Misty]

Very interesting! I do this!

Made me question alot though! As i thought I was spiritual and put my hallucinations dwn to paranormal experiences!

I wholeheartedly believe in the paranormal but how to differentiate between this and bipolar??

I still believe that everyhting happens for a reason, but I've been told recently that this outlook is damaging. That it's giving into situations instead of trying to better them!

How do u answer that one?!

Everything about this label is confusing to me! Maybe that will pass as more understanding creeps in! I duno!

[malign]

It's possible for everything to happen for a reason, and still to change things.

All you have to do is allow that some things might happen differently than they would have, because you changed them.

So, for instance, you might decide that the original thing happened for a reason you don't like ... After all, whatever you believe is making things happen also created you with free will, to change things. It probably wanted you to use that free will ...

[spiritual_emergency]

malign: if that's mania, then essentially every mystic, every person who has ever felt themselves experiencing their spirituality first-hand, has been manic.

I'm playing with a picture...

DEFLATED <------------------------------<EGO>------------------------------> INFLATED

I'm trying to tie something up neatly and it may be that my model is too simplistic. I want to be able to say that extremes of ego deflation (depression) or extremes of ego inflation (mania) will produce fragmentation (psychosis) if the stress of either produces "enough" stress. It's this stress that injures/wounds the egoic identity along a range from slight to profound. In some, it may only produce cracks or fractures, in others, a complete shattering. Either way, I would expect that the ego boundaries would have to be breached in some manner before anything we might think of as spiritual or transpersonal could break through. However, even then, there may still be an egoic presence, albeit a battered ego presence.

I'm interested in the degree of egoic identity that remains because I think that influences how the individual responds to that "transpersonal light". For example, in some, it might produce a Mother Theresa whereas in others, it might produce a Jim Jones. In the example of Mother Theresa we might say there is very little personal ego that remains but in the example of Jim Jones, we might see a very strong ego presence -- one that perceives itself as being superior to others, worthy of their worship/adoration, and sincerely believes they are elevated far above the mortal realm with its attendant capacity to be human, including the risk of making errors. Depending on where the ego settles out, we might see something that claims equality/oneness or something that grabs onto the experience and tries to "make it mine" as a means of enhancing personal superiority. That's an ego response, not a transpersonal response.

I'm also interested to see which direction the energy goes -- inward or outward. Drawing on the experiences I'm most familiar with... in my own experience everything was directed inward with a very intense focus and intent. In my child's case, their attention and energy went outwards in a manner that scattered the abundance of that energy in an unfocused manner. I have since speculated if psychosis might be the domain of the introvert and mania, the comfortable stomping grounds of the extrovert.

I don't know malign, if that might address your comments regarding markers. It is a simple model however and doesn't capture "spiritual/transpersonal" experiences that occur independent of inflation, deflation and fragmentation. Obviously, I'm going to need to flesh my ideas out some more.

Luna: The article got me thinking about spirituality and I tried to think back to when I last really felt that connection to something greater than myself.

In my own wanderings, I haven't pursued anything that wasn't rooted in my own life experience. I think it's important that people are authentic to their own individual path, even though it may be different from the paths of others. Since you have already had a personal experience that you self-identified as "spiritual" maybe that's a logical starting place for you. If you find yourself uncomfortable with spiritual/religious tones, perhaps you'd feel more comfortable starting with psychology. As but one example, you're probably quite familiar with Maslow's concepts regarding peak experiences.

See also:

- Episodes of Unitive Consciousness

- Markers on the Path to Personal Authenticity

[spiritual_emergency]

malign: It seems to me that someone who suffers from bipolar would need tools to distinguish a spiritual euphoria from an out of control mania. Possibly similar (though probably different) markers would help someone trying to distinguish a psychotic or pre-psychotic episode from a spiritual one.

This excerpt from Stan and Christina Grof's The Stormy Search for the Self contains some additional, possible markers: Spiritual Emergence or Psychiatric Disturbance.

I'm somewhat hesitant to start applying too many standards to an individual's assessment of a "spiritual experience". I would think the more important concern would be what they do with that experience and how they do it. I have spoken with many individuals whose personal experience contained religious or spiritual themes; many of them find a degree of comfort, healing, solace and meaning in them. I would be reluctant to "take that away" from anyone by applying a measurement that attempted to determine what was "spiritual" and what was not.

In the same vein I admit a healthy skepticism of those who claim to have undergone transformative experiences who then emerge as a self-proclaimed teacher, leader, guru, messiah, etc. These would include individuals such as Sai Baba, Marianne Williamson, Eckhart Tolle, Little Keisha, Ken Wilber, Andrew Cohen, etc. I can't help but think that authentic transformative experiences don't include a desire to attain celebrityship (ego gratification) but more than that, I would look to what that particular individual was doing with their experience and how they were doing it.

[malign]

I'm somewhat hesitant to start applying too many standards...

Mmm, I wasn't so much looking for global standards to apply to all people, as for each person to develop guidelines for self-evaluation based on the suggestions of the group we have assembled here. After all, in the end, it's up to each of us to assign meaning to our experiences.

Of course, this is the primary difficulty of applying Jung's work, to the extent that I understand that work myself. It deliberately avoids measurement, which science as it is currently conceived absolutely requires. This is not unreasonable; very little of the human psyche can be measured. It just makes it very difficult then to continue to discuss it in scientific terms.

That doesn't invalidate his ideas. It just transforms their discussion into more descriptive terms. I was wondering whether there might be common features that many people share, that our members who are having trouble with the distinction between mania and spiritual experience might be able to compare with their own situations. Certainly, some of the ones in the Grofs' list seemed pertinent, such as remaining oriented within the external world and successful communication with others.

I have a similar reservation towards "gurus", though I would qualify it somewhat. I can easily understand the desire to share the experience with others, not for fame but out of generosity. I agree that most who become famous for it are probably striving too hard for that.

I also wonder whether the absolute destruction of the ego is required for spirituality. I mean, I still have one, I just seem to use it differently now. If that makes sense. ;-)

[Luna-]

I have so many things to say that I doubt I will get to them all. For now, just this: I am so thrilled with where this thread is going and I'm reading everything very eagerly (including your links, SE, with which I have also previously spent countless hours.) Keep right on, folks!

[Luna-]

It seems to me that someone who suffers from bipolar would need tools to distinguish a spiritual euphoria from an out of control mania. Possibly similar (though probably different) markers would help someone trying to distinguish a psychotic or pre-psychotic episode from a spiritual one.

Or, I could be making distinctions that don't exist. ;-)

I don’t think there are necessarily markers between spiritual experiences and psychotic ones. Experiences labelled psychotic may be visionary and spiritual – history seems to abound with them. It’s in how you interpret them, I think.

In my own wanderings, I haven't pursued anything that wasn't rooted in my own life experience. I think it's important that people are authentic to their own individual path, even though it may be different from the paths of others. Since you have already had a personal experience that you self-identified as "spiritual" maybe that's a logical starting place for you. If you find yourself uncomfortable with spiritual/religious tones, perhaps you'd feel more comfortable starting with psychology. As but one example, you're probably quite familiar with Maslow's concepts regarding peak experiences.

Yes re peak experiences. I have had recurrent spiritual moments or peak experiences. Episodes of Unitive Consciousness. They have come and gone. But not enough to make a lasting transformation. Some have coincided with mania, I don’t know if always, since I never thought to call it mania before. Whatever you call them, they were spiritual. I have interpreted them in the light of whatever spiritual paradigm I was “into” at the time. I have a long history with religion, starting when I was “born again” at 14. A year later I was Buddhist, the next, atheist, two years after that, Christian. (Hey, I was a teenager, trying on religions instead of clothes.) Then followed a long Christian period. Then followed an alienation from religion and especially churches. The last 15 years have been informed mainly by Buddhist philosophy – some things I have learnt ring so very true and have been my own experience of life. But in recent years I have lost the connection to it. Many depleting and long depressions.

Of course, this is the primary difficulty of applying Jung's work, to the extent that I understand that work myself. It deliberately avoids measurement, which science as it is currently conceived absolutely requires.

The transpersonal is, to my mind, qualitative, not quantitative. As I understand it, there are themes, but each manifests differently in different people.

I also wonder whether the absolute destruction of the ego is required for spirituality

Not absolute destruction. But at least a crack or two, to let in that which is greater than the ego. I think.

I found the following website. It may have been from a link you gave, SE, or one I found in one of your blogs, or a link of a link. I get lost easily. I have not checked out the articles but it seems a good resource in this context. Publications Archive: Spirituality and Psychiatry Special Interest Group

[spiritual_emergency]

Luna: I found the following website. It may have been from a link you gave, SE, or one I found in one of your blogs, or a link of a link.

It looks familiar. Meantime, a friend once asked me why I listen to so much music and although there are many reasons, the reason I said to him then was: I'm not listening to the music. I'm listening to the Silence in between the notes and melody.

Here's another link that has been a favorite of mine for a very long time. I think it's possible you might enjoy it.

Spiritual Practices: Silence

Enhances: Contemplation

Balances/Counters: Chaos

The Basic Practice

Silence is often referred to in terms of space: the immensity inside, the cave of the heart, the oasis of quiet, the inner sanctuary, the interior castle, the sacred center where God dwells. For centuries, people have used this practice as a resting and renewal stop on the spiritual journey. It provides a way to periodically withdraw from the world. You may go into silence as a prelude to prayer, or you may seek it as the place where through meditation you can contact your deeper self and Spirit.

How can you find this inner quietude, tranquility, and calm? You must make room for it — literally. Find a space of physical silence where you can sit quietly, away from distracting demands, voices, and sounds. Go there every day. It is the gateway to your interior silence.

Source: Spiritual Practices: Silence

See also: Silence Quotes

malign, you'd made some comments I'd like to address as time permits as well but time is not permitting right now.

~ Namaste

Music of the Hour:

[finding my way]

Hellllooooooooo out there! I was way too buried when this discussion was going on. Is there still interest?

SE this is so true:

How can you find this inner quietude, tranquility, and calm? You must make room for it — literally.

I am one of the.... um.... weirdos? that goes to that spiritual dimension willingly. It doesn't feel manic or psychotic though I could totally see how another would view my experiences that way. I set up the conditions for quiet and I journey, then come back. My best advances in therapy were when my therapist included this dimension in our work.

[Luna-]

Hiya Finding. Was hoping you'd come. I am definitely still very interested, mania or no mania. Besides I plan to hold SE to: "malign, you'd made some comments I'd like to address as time permits as well but time is not permitting right now." I'm happy to wait.

I would like to sustain the spirituality even when not in mania (which isn't often anyway). Like you, go there whenever I want! How do you do that?

[finding my way]

If you are in my space today Luna, welcome to the final frontier....

*that was for malign, but NOT for permission to talk about Star Trek!*

I love the above quote so much

How can you find this inner quietude, tranquility, and calm? You must make room for it — literally.

because it alludes to years of effort so simply... you have to carve out space... you have to make room for spirituality... you have to empty empty empty (kinder than saying shut up shut up shut up:o). And a little goes a very long way! A few moments of silencing your thoughts can produce a miracle--- I'm serious! The world will appear before you, BAM! Right there, it has always been there, rich and glorious. We just can't see it when caught up in the mind chatter. I can see the world of the senses, I can see the world of intuition, if I still myself, my thoughts.

Ego-wise, it feels to me like it shrinks to a tiny observer... it doesn't dissolve, deflate, inflate, it gets dwarfed by the magnificent hugeness of the rest of the world.....

Now if I could only master emptying my house!!!!!!! I am always getting overtaken by clutter!!!!!!!!:eek:

[Luna-]

Now if I could only master emptying my house!!!!!!! I am always getting overtaken by clutter!!!!!!!!:eek:

Oh, Finding, it sounds to me like you have it right, in the place that really matters.

I was in a meditation group some years ago for over a year and went on Buddhist retreats with Noble Silence where we meditated a lot. I did feel peaceful, but never what you are describing here ...

[finding my way]

How are you doing with the negative self talk? That is a big piece of what needs to go quiet. So much gets shut out with our negative determinisms...

[Luna-]

As you see, abysmally.

Back to the discussion.