What is it with me?

[sadgreeneyes]

Lately I have started to wonder if a few things in my life has been real, I have never had thoughts like this before, I even wonder have I married?? Did I really show my drawing at work and did I sell it to this young girl?? Have I said something weird at work?? have they seen something I dont know about??

I can say that lately I´ve been under lot of stress and cried at work one day, a couple weeks ago, and in several outbreaks, crying for two hours in the office, it got triggered by my work leader. As I was in training, he lost his temper one day and said I asked so many weird questions. I was shaking and not able to stay there, so ran to the office. I also had sleep problems the latest 5 weeks when working so slept only 2-3 hours about every night,I still have difficulties sleeping but its little better as I dont have to think about getting early up too. I think the situation being married and waiting for my husband and having fear am I loved or not or will I be abandoned again plus the fear of my ptsd is affecting me very much till the point I´m not functioning properly, thats why they at work thought its better I get rest for some months and get to go to a psychologist.

When I get these thougths, which is not often, I feel confused and scared what if its not real.

I guess its normal under stress or?

[randomperson]

I'm not sure what is normal but under a ton of stress.. lot of us are going through the same types of symptoms. If you read my recent post you might be able to relate and it might give you more peace to know your not alone.

Understanding the problem and catching false thoughts helps me.

Also stick in here get support when you need it

I'm sorry things are rough. I hope you find peace today and things go well for you.

[sadgreeneyes]

Thanks randomperson for replying to me, I was talking with my husband again tonight, sometimes it has felt like I´m in a fog, like was it all an illusion or delusion, still feel a bit of that fog. Some days I was afraid I even had forgotten to show up on cam to talk with him, mixing the days as we talk every second day, even thought "if" I had mixed them why hadnt he told me...like then again thinking did he exist, but of course I do talk with him so got back to feeling sure I had not mixed any days or he would say it. Even thinking right now what if I just think I have talked with him.

I think the distance is one cause being in this fog, too much stress and too much thinking have made me in a state of emotional chaos. I do know I am married, I see the pics from the wedding and him in my window, I have my ring. It must feel like a fog as he is so far away maybe.

I did read online that stress could lead to psychosis. I hope this fog will go away. Its a very unpleasant feeling.

[randomperson]

Have you discussed these recent feelings with your therapist?

I talked about being like that when I was a child, for me it was the result of memory repression and trauma and it was no fun at all. Please take care of yourself and find ways to relax and ease the feelings of stress as much as you can. Make sure you get the right amount of sleep when you can.

I know it is tough right now. I'm sorry you are going through all of this.

[sadgreeneyes]

Thank you for reading me randomperson, I haven`t got a counseler yet,but will tell about it when I get to one. I feel little more out of the fog today as I have txt him and even are ready to book my flight. I guess I feel more alive...that something is happening. But I still have a weird feeling of not being quite there...feel like its needed this "shock treatment" they write about to get out of this state... strange when you mentioned your childhood and the repression as I always waited for my father to come home from work as I was left alone most of my childhood, I remember I didnt like to be alone because I was afraid being alone and just that my father came home I felt not so scared I guess. I felt this way even my father would just come home to go right to the living room without anything to say or any hug, so when I knew I was not alone I did go to my room again before he even came inside the house sometimes, I spent most of my time in my bedroom. I remember I always looked for the car thinking isnt he coming soon and when I saw the car I was satisfied. That was all that was needed sadly enough. Today I am angry how he could hit my mother and brother, he even ran after my grandmother with knife wanting to kill her for helping in the house, we all saw it. I was only 5 years old. Maybe my husband being so far away and me waiting for him..maybe this is very difficult for me emotionally as we starved emotionally when we were children. We never got any love. And I dont get my emotional needs met by my husband either, not yet at least, if ever. Maybe this situation feels like a re-living or trigger? But what scares me is to be abandoned again, this is my worst fear as I lost all my family very young, mother when I was at age 4, she had schizoid personality disorder so was in hospital all my childhood, brother at age 13 in suicide, he was only 18, and my father at age 15, he threw me out and didnt care since. He only cared his new family. About 6 years ago he talked about his children, we thought it was me and my sister,but it wasnt, it was this womans children, he didnt mention me and my sister and this in front of other family members. That did both hurt and shocked us. I think fear of abandonment makes me feeling sick. And I fear being abused again by my man as this will mean he will abandon me in the end. Because there are no love with an abuser.

[finding my way]

Greeneyes, what are some steps you can take to get a therapist? have you heard of any good ones in your area?

[sadgreeneyes]

Hi finding my way,

the work office will help me with getting free psychologist, but she said I had to wait little, this is the system here.I dont have afford to pay one myself as I have lots of debt and barely have something to live off, only reason why I get down to Jordan now is because I got much more in salary than I thought last months so could pay the whole trip with this. I just have to wait unfortunately.

[spiritual_emergency]

sadgreeneyes: Maybe my husband being so far away and me waiting for him..maybe this is very difficult for me emotionally as we starved emotionally when we were children. We never got any love. And I dont get my emotional needs met by my husband either, not yet at least, if ever. Maybe this situation feels like a re-living or trigger?

Hello sadgreeneyes,

I can certainly see the similarities between your situation now and the situation you were in when you were a child.

There is also much in your descriptions of your experience that reminds me of dissociation, derealization or depersonalization. Here is one link I found that speaks to the issue: Depersonalization and Derealization.

That particular link is selling something and I don't want to give the impression that I'm endorsing that product. Truthfully, I don't know anything about the Linden Method or the Linden Center and I wouldn't encourage anyone to buy anything unless they have carefully reviewed it and decided for themselves that it might be helpful. Nonetheless, whether you chose to purchase that book or another book, or make use of free articles on the internet -- all of these could be self-help tools you could utilize in lieu of or until you can find a therapist you can comfortably work with. In turn, being able to understand the rhyme and reason of a personal response, knowing that they are "normal under the circumstances" -- this kind of knowledge can be tremendously reassuring to an individual in crisis.

I'd also like to say that you seem to understand yourself and your responses very well in some ways. You know that the stress and lack of sleep has contributed to your current state, you know what you are most frightened of, you understand what is driving the immensity of your sadness and you seem to be taking steps, or trying to take steps, to soothe that situation for yourself. This all suggests to me that you do have the resources within yourself to help yourself and to reach out for help where you feel yourself lacking.

Meantime, I want to share with you one statement I read quite some time ago that was very meaningful to me:

Release yourself from the illusion that the present is an exact and calculated replay of the past.

There may be similarities between your current life experience and one in your past however, these two situations are not identical. Perhaps it would be helpful to you to think about how this situation now is different from what happened before.

Best of luck to you sadgreeneyes.

~ Namaste

See also: The Boundaries of Rage and Forgiveness

[sadgreeneyes]

spiritual_emergency,

wow..this was making sense to me as when I read through the page I was very sure this must be the reason as I have so much anxiety and feel I´m in this fog and that my life and the surroundings are not quite real. So thank you very much for giving me this information.

I was just in the shop and got to see the headline on the newspaper about what I struggle with concerning my ptsd, I got even more anxious knowing my husband comes. Now I know for sure I will not have anything to do with that tv company ever again as they are selling hard porn. I cant believe how difficult some people wants a womens life to be, dont we have enough of all this s**t already that they now wants to sell it everywhere, cant even have tv anymore because of that evil s**t. No wonders why we dont need a man anymore or have the lust to be with one when its like that. When you cant have peace and be fearless in your own home anymore how is a marriage gonna survive? Seems like today they do everything just to destroy families.

Now I ramble on and are way out of what was the subject,but I just dont understand whats going on in peoples head when they let this flow into family homes, its horrible. I get so upset.

I would rather live alone than to have to live in a home with fear of my ptsd.

If my husband doesnt accept that then he can just go. He has said he understand before, but I dont mean only porn, I dont want any nudity coming into my living room. This is when I get the fight or flight feeling, should I run away or take the fight.

I wonder, when it comes to ptsd, is it possible to dissociate from ptsd? I mean its there, but if I feel its better to run away or avoid what triggers my ptsd, is that the same in a way to try and dissociate from it? I think I am asking a weird question now.

[sadgreeneyes]

Well, thank God is was renting from the tv company and in my district which is one out of 16 districts this is forbidden as its not normal for family tv. My God!, at least some people have brain. I get so angry I would like to strangle these people.

Trying to calm down.

[spiritual_emergency]

You have mentioned PTSD twice, sadgreeneyes. Do you think you could comforably talk about the trauma you experienced? Some people find it easier to say those kinds of things in an environment like this but other people need to keep that private and to themselves. There isn't really a right answer but if you want to talk about it, I'm sure others would be capable of hearing what you have to say.

~ Namaste

[sadgreeneyes]

Yes, but its just that I dont know why I have this ptsd. I havent been diagnosed with ptsd,but I have so to say all of the symptoms and for 17 years. The latest two months I have had bad dreams about my ptsd. And I have never had this before.

I know my childhood was abusive,but there were no sexual abuse as I can remember. But I did something sexually twice, there did happen something which I am ashamed of today, but I cant mention it to anyone as it is too bad. I was age 13 when this happened. And my father was around and outside the house. It was just awful and not normal. At age 6 I remember I was embarrassed or ashamed for being naked when a pic was taken of us, dont know why but I was the only one without clothes. I also have another pic of me at same age where I am naked running around, guess its same day. Is that normal at age 6?

At age 12 a man showed me porn saying not to mention anything to his wife. I was walking their dog. He was looking at me and I know now as an adult, that he looked at me as he wanted me to think this was something great and that he wanted something from me. I never did go there again.

After this I have met only abusive men. I have been one of those women in the book "Woman Who Love Too Much" by Robin Norwood. The book makes me cry. It hurts. I am actually still that woman.

I dont know what has caused this ptsd, but I know it got triggered by my first boyfriend as he said the only reason why men look at baywatch is because of the good looking woman. I remember oh I have never thought about that, but it became true to me, we normal woman we were not so good. I was not so good.

This is affecting my whole life, I cant go to the beach with my husband, cant watch tv with him, have to plan when to shower if the tv is available, cant go to another room in case he will see nudity on tv as this will mean I am nothing worth, as I feel ashamed and humiliated. I am crying and shaking and my heart races, I get irritated and angry while crying and accusing my man for looking knowing what he wants and its not me. I just want to disappear. I would spend my whole day being on guard concerning the tv, dread when the tv will be on in the evening or night, even day, as I would do anything to avoid experiencing this situation and feelings again.

[sadgreeneyes]

Before my brother committed suicide he did many times show upon my doorstep in the morning ( after my father had gone to work) and show his genital to me as it was erection. He had a grin on his face.

So when he died I got scared my father would come into the bedroom or bathroom when I shower. I got force thoughts locking the doors, checking up to 3 times every night was it really locked. And I was afraid that if my father heard I was locking the door he would know that I was afraid of him coming in and I was sure he would know why I locked the door. He would know it was of sexual fear. I started praying to God not to be blind or die. Every night I prayed.

Today I still put on large clothes if my father comes to visit, which he rarely do, luckily. I will not let my father see me in summer clothes because then I will think he thinks something or he is looking.

If I would get a hug I feel I want to wash him off me.

[spiritual_emergency]

Hello sadgreeneyes,

A simple tool I often recommend to people in crisis is the use of a timeline. The value in a timeline is that it helps restore order and can also allow us to see where events or clusters of events are similar. I've taken the experiences you've spoken of and placed them on a timeline so we can all begin to see your experiences a little more clearly...

Timeline: First Draft

Age 3 or 4: My mother was still at home and she sat with me before sleep a couple of times I remember and tickled me under my feet as I liked that so much.

Age 4: Loses mother (to hospitalization/move across country?). Previous to this loss, mother (had schizoid personality disorder) was in hospital throughout most of her early childhood.

Age 5: Waiting (usually in bedroom) for father to come home. (Father had history of violence. Hit mother and children, chased grandmother with knife.)

Age 6: Running naked outside. Questions this now.

Age around 8: We put chairs with blankets, to make kinda like a tent in the living room so we could hide in there, I liked the dark and to be in that tent.

Age 9: My brother brought home a cat, I liked the cat.

Age 11: Found a friend to be with till I was 12.

Age 12: Introduced to pornography by older male.

Age 13: Saw my mother again. (Mother came out of hospital.)

Age 13: Experience that was perceived as shameful.

Age 13: Brother dies as a result of suicide. (Brother was 18) Previous to his death he had exposed himself sexually on different occasions. (Older sister was 19 at this time. Said that brother killed himself because sadgreeneyes

Age ??: Develops fears that father will make sexual overtures. Even today, dresses to downplay her body/figure if father comes to visit.

Age 15: Father throws her out. Has partnered with new woman since then and speaks of her children as if they are his own. Does not speak of her or her sister in same terms.

Age 15: Had some joy living at a folk school even I had to stay there because the main reason was I was homeless.

Age ??: First boyfriend tells her women on Baywatch are good-looking. Produced thoughts of not being attractive enough.

Age ??: Seventeen years ago, PTSD begins.

Age 18 : Found my best friend and she still is the best friend I ever had. Even we lost much of the contact for years after I moved to west. These 3 years living in east was my best years as I had a real true friend.

Age 23: First marriage. Husband "talked about models and singers how far they had come in life ... had to be 43 kilo to live up to that image or people would laugh of me."

Age 30: (2003) Suicide attempt. (Taken to hospital by friend J.)

Age 31: (2004) J. returned to wife (he had been separated)

Age 33: (2006) Mother died.

Age 37 : found my husband, but I am still scared

Age ??: Marries husband.

Age ??: Sleep problems.

Age ??: Bad dreams.

Age ??: Was being trained by a male leader/boss. He lost his temper with her and accused her of asking too many weird questions. Experiences breakdown at work.

Age ??: Waiting for husband. Feels unworthy. Deeply bothered by pornography.

I used question marks where I wasn't certain how old you were when you experienced those events. I think I have placed everything in the right order but you would know better than I. Nonetheless, when we place all these distressing events on a timeline we can see that some of them are related to each other.

What seems to emerge from this timeline is that first of all, as a young child you would have longed for love and acceptance. It seems possible that your mother might not have been able to give it, either because her disorder rendered her incapable of doing so or because she was away at the hospital so much.

In your mother's absence your father and your feelings regarding his feelings about you probably would have become even more important. It seems however, that you did not make an emotional connection with him either. Then, there was your older brother, who died when you were just a young teen. You mentioned a sister -- is she still part of your life? Do you have any other siblings aside from her?

Adolescence is a period when people typically begin to develop sexually and may begin to experiment sexually as well. During this time you report some experiences that sound confusing, frightening and sometimes, shameful to you.

As an older adolescent, you experienced more confusion. First, when your father abandoned you but took on a new family and second, when your first boyfriend told you he found the women on Baywatch to be attractive. Both these events seem to have produced a feeling of being rejected and unworthy.

All of that seems to take us up to the present moment wherein you are having these same fears of being abandoned or found unworthy. These are painful feelings and that's why we get anxious or angry about them.

As a suggestion, perhaps you could fill in the blanks on that timeline and rearrange it to make sure it's all in order. You could then bring that with you to the first appointment with your therapist and show it to them. Those are the things that are bothering you greatly so those are the things that need to be addressed. Bear in mind, this often has to be done one step at a timeeven though we often want things to be fixed, or resolved, or come to peace with very quickly. Also be reassured that a good therapist does not force you to go where you don't want to go. You might find that you can talk to them about experiences that feel shameful but you shouldn't have to if you don't feel comfortable doing so.

In addition to seeking out a professional therapist there are other things you can do to help yourself along the way. One of them is learning to be a compassionate friend to yourself. The other is learning to be a compassionate friend to others.

As a compassionate friend to yourself you learn to stop beating yourself up or blaming yourself for the things that were beyond your ability to control. For example, you could not control that your mother was ill and in the hospital during so much of your early childhood. That doesn't mean you weren't a beautiful, bright, playful, precocious, excitable, curious, inquisitive child who wasn't worthy of being loved.

When some people are first learning how to develop compassion, they find they can often find it easier for others than they can find it for themselves. For example, you may know or read about someone else who has had an experience that was similar to your own and this will generate a feeling of wanting to treat them kindly because you understand their pain. Over time, as you learn to understand your own pain, you learn to treat yourself kindly too.

Compassion is very different from "self-pity" or "feeling sorry for ourselves". Often, when people do feel these emotions, they beat themselves up for feeling that way too! Compassion however allows a person to feel that it's okay to feel what they feel, because they're human and all human beings go through difficult, painful and challenging experiences. Many of them struggle with them too. Just as important, many of them heal from them as well.

Meantime, something else that might be useful is to create a second timeline. On that timeline, try to place some of the events you have had in your life that you experienced as being positive. Maybe you had a close friendship in your childhood, or you once went on a trip to a place that seemed beautiful to you. Perhaps you remember a special sense of joy in seeing a rainbow after a thunderstorm, or can remember the pleasure you found in a certain pet or activity. It can be important to try to identify those places of small joys to help counteract the idea that everything is awful and has always been that way. No life is ever filled with only painful moments. Always, there will be some shafts of light, some places of wonder, some magical moments. Part of recovery includes remembering that side of our life experiences too.

Continued good wishes to you in your recovery.

~ Namaste

[sadgreeneyes]

Thank you so much spiritual_emergency, for setting a timeline up for me! That was very kind of you and helpful and I will bring it with me to my therapist when I get one:)

I dont remember much from my childhood, not before age 12. Only that I did go to school. I was 13 when I started waiting for my father to come home. At same time I got the force thoughts about the bedroom and bathroom. Maybe because my brother had done this before he died. My mother was so ill she couldnt take care of us. She came out from hospital when I was 13, I had not seen her since she got into the hospital. Only 1 time right after she came to the hospital, we stayed 5 minutes, that was very sad I remember, dint want to leave her. After this memory is black, I didnt remember she was in hospital, I was so little I guess. When she came out from the hospital I was 13 years old. All my adult life she was in my heart even there were no real communication and difficult visiting. She was in care all her life. We lived on each side of the country. I loved her so much and nothing was ever her fault. To me she was like an angel, so special in personality and behavior even the illness. So innocent and she was like a child. Missing her laughter of the wildest things. Despite her inner world I knew she was in pain, her illness, that she lost her children so early. She knew. She had such influence on the people around her that one patient stopped speaking for several weeks after she died. When she died I lost a part of myself. She died in 2006 and I didnt get to say goodbye to her either. The one I am disappointed over/angry on is my father.

My first husband ( married at age 23) talked about models and singers how far they had come in life, they "were" something. I had to be 43 kilo to live up to that image or people would laugh of me. I know that was sick to say, to be 43 kilo, I would be near death. After this 3 of my abusive men over the next 5 years said some similar things that we normal women werent good enough.

I didnt love my first husband, I was naive, finally someone loved me, but it wasnt love. I got clinical depressed and did not stand up from bed before after 9 months. It was very bad mentally.

When my first love, named J,( in 2003) didnt respond on txt to me, I was sitting alone that evening and I knew he was watching song contest at a friends house, I felt unworthy and took 580 grams of anti depression pills and nearly died at the hospital. The doctors said that if I was brought there some minutes later I would not survive, they told me how lucky I was. I was in respirator 1 hour before waking up. The reason I live today is because J did come back that evening because I txt saying I took pills, so he might reacted. He didnt have a car himself, but that night he had a friends car outside. It must be destiny, without that car I would also be dead. He left me in 2004, went back to his wife whom he was separated from. 5 years later I met him again but he turned out to be a narcissist. I thank God I survived as I could not forgive myself if my mother had to experience the loss of one more child in suicide. Today I want to live even I have had suicide thoughts again.

I have a sister, but she struggle with though disorder, once she started saying she was 8 years old, she had not took her medicine that day. She has to use valium ( diazepam) to calm down her nerves and pain, she usually drank alcohol every day too to take away the pain, usually she sat with abusers, drug abusers or alcoholics, trying to fill the pain of being alone. Just like me, only that I didnt chose so bad people, but had one abuser I did return to just for company, my sister sent me to him as the abuser needed my company to be happy that day, so after this it became my pattern to escape loneliness. Better than to be alone all the time. But I know it was bad. It still is difficult being alone, but at least I have a husband. Even I dont know how to deal with my ptsd in this.

My sister said that when my brother died that he killed himself because he thought I didnt care about him. She was 19 at this time.

I am trying my best to take care of myself and say that I have right to live without fear and pain, a woman told me once if I meet the right one he would love me with all my faults, she meant my ptsd. Sometimes it seems like my husband doesnt know where I am coming from,so he questions my statements sometimes.

I just hope my husband will love me anyway and treat me good and understand me.

[finding my way]

Greeneyes, these are very very difficult events to live through B) You are doing a very good job talking about them and beginning to sort through it. And I always learn from Spiritual Emergency when she helps us. Greeneyes, is there a way to make a beginning on that second timeline she talks about? What are some of the positive things in your life? Putting some attention on the things that went well for you does not deny the terrible things. It's important to get to know both aspects of you. We need to get to know ourselves to know what is soothing so our anxiety doesn't get way out of control. So many people here struggle to know what could soothe them, so don't feel alone if you don't know yet. Right now the thought of a loving husband is soothing, but there might be other things that are available to you. And there might be other relationships-- friendships --you could develop over time that could help with the lonliness. Working on the timeline of positive things could lead to some insights about the things in life that are enjoyable.

[sadgreeneyes]

Hi finding my way,

I will try put up a timeline of some positive things. You are right its soothing right now the ideá of a loving husband. I have always been thinking or had an opinion that if somebody really loved me I would be happy and that was all I needed. But I see that my past doesnt go away, there are deep wounds and the fact that I struggle with my ptsd makes me well aware I cant let this be past because I would never be able to be in a relationship if I dont get some help for my dread of nudity. I am not afraid of being nude myself with my husband or being intimate. Its only the threat of someone elses nudity. This is when I panic and cry. And I know my body is totally fine, not fat nor skinny, and have the right curves, but I still feel this humiliation and shame or dread if my man should see others nudity. Specially if she has this "false" body with silicon and stuff. But the worst is any women as long as she acts sexually seductive. Its not so bad if she does not act sexually seductive or in any way show off. But still embarrassing, still makes me feel uncomfortable. Sometimes I wonder if I would feel this way if I had silicon and stuff, you know, but I think so as I feel this dread even there are normal women. Its only a problem if my man see it, I dont have problems if alone,but it feels sometimes little uncomfortable,not because of the nudity I guess but because it reminds me of my ptsd if I was with a man. So if I should happen to see some of this when alone I turn of the tv or change channel as its uncomfortable plus why on earth does anybody think a woman would like to look at other nude women. Like would a man like to get naked men acting sexually seductive into their living room, I bet not, I bet they would change channel too. Men have such a dobbel standard, like they think all is for men and we women have to accept it, This is so far from the truth, no women has to accept this. My opinion is if man respected his wife or women he would totally understand and empathize with her in this knowing it was of the bad and not something to be accepted as a normal day life experience. My husband say he understand this and that I am right and he should be as he is muslim. People would be killed for this down there. But it scares me because my husband said early on he looked porn to see how they did it, my husband was virgin, he say he know its a sin and that it was only one time. Of course he is lying, about every men lie about this. Specially if he admits to have seen one. I was shocked how he could say this to me just like that, like it was normal.

I told him how I hate men who look this. And I do.

The two episodes that happened when I was 13, I dont know if there is a connection of this shameful thing I did then and the humiliation/shame I feel when someone elses is showing off nude. Because thats what I did. I acted sexually seductive. I dont know was it to get attention from my father or what is was,but it was a horrible thing and I hope my father didnt see me. The other thing I did I am not able to say.

If I just could understand why I feel such dread. I just wish I could have a good happy marriage without having this dread, to fight through every day with this fear, to be able to relax knowing I was loved even if there once in a while would be something on tv too difficult for me to handle. I am scared my husband will not accept me or leave me because of this. I do know if he really loves me he would accept and understand as he say he does, but I dont feel safe with him as I dont know him. Specially after saying he looked sex movie once and also tried to push me into "doing it" over cam for him to watch and he was in an internet cafe! My God! He has respected me after this luckily.

I am even scared of having a daughter in case the father will do something sexual to her or think something, looking at her you know. Have been thinking this for very long time, many years. Because with men you never know. Abusers can do this. One of my abusers molested his 16 year old daughter right in front of my face, outside the house, saying whats the problem. I reported him but the daughter supported her father so nothing happened

[sadgreeneyes]

And I remember when I was on the beach with my sister and father my father was filming us and "me", I could see he was focusing not only on me but I felt he found it amusing to watch me annoyed as I could feel and see he looked at my body. I was 12 and started to be a woman. It was just disgusting.

[spiritual_emergency]

Hello sadgreeneyes. I first wanted to say I was very touched by your description of the love you had for your mother. I believe there is tremendous value in not only being loved by others but also being able to love. Love is a form of shelter and it can lend us strength in some of our darker moments. It is a blessing I think that you have been able to feel this mother love in your heart.

sadgreeneyes: The two episodes that happened when I was 13, I dont know if there is a connection of this shameful thing I did then and the humiliation/shame I feel when someone elses is showing off nude. Because thats what I did. I acted sexually seductive. I dont know was it to get attention from my father or what is was,but it was a horrible thing and I hope my father didnt see me.

It is said that a woman's first love will always be her father. I'm not certain that's true but I do agree that our first significant relationship with a male will be with our fathers. This relationship can influence the relationships we have with other males through the course of our lives.

I think your word choice here is important: I acted sexually seductive. For most of us learning a new role in life, we do start by copying the behaviors we have seen that we think we are supposed to do. Many of us do start out by "acting out the role" because we don't yet know how to "be" it.

Meantime, I recall my own period of adolescence and the relationship I had with my own father during the time I began to develop physically. In my case, I recall my father saying something quite harsh to me when I had behaved in a sexual manner with a boy my age. The end result was that I felt ashamed of my sexual behaviors and also felt rejected by my father. I couldn't have put it into words at the time but I felt that he couldn't accept the part of me that I was becoming. In some ways, this was true. My father had enjoyed being a father to his "little girls" but as we grew and matured, he stopped wrestling, playing with and even hugging his daughters. It hurt at the time but I think it was appropriate behavior for our culture. It sent a signal to me that my father and I should not have a sexual relationship and instead, I should turn those interests to other males.

It sounds to me as if you and your father were going through a similar pattern and in the end, you both responded appropriately by learning that sexual relationships between parents and their children are to be taboo. However, there may have been another part of you that was still wounded by the rejection because it was linked in with those other, earlier feelings of abandonment.

If I just could understand why I feel such dread. I just wish I could have a good happy marriage without having this dread, to fight through every day with this fear, to be able to relax knowing I was loved even if there once in a while would be something on tv too difficult for me to handle. I am scared my husband will not accept me or leave me because of this.

I think you're aware that we live in a culture where a woman's personal power is often tied to her sexuality and attractiveness -- when women compete with each other, it's often in these areas. When men compete with one another, it's more often related to social status or financial wealth. Many men feel intimidated if another man implies that they are less capable in these areas. For this reason, your husband might not be intimidated if you saw a naked man on tv but if your actions suggested you thought another man was a better financial provider than he was... that might cause him to feel hurt, inadequate, and scared he could lose you in the same way you feel hurt, inadequate and frightened you could lose him if he looks at another woman with "Baywatch Boobs".

I'm aware of really, only a few ways to counter these kinds of fears. One is to try and become physically beautiful as a means of securing a man's love. Another might be to secure financial security for yourself so if you do lose the man, you can still take care of your own most basic needs. Another is to accept that we are what we are. Even women with "Baywatch Boobs" get dumped. Even men who are filthy rich lose the love of their lives. Meantime, many people who are less than physically perfect or financially wealthy have long and happy marriages. Obviously, it is more than physical attraction or the ability to produce financial security that renders another person a suitable mate.

[sadgreeneyes]

Hi spiritual_emergency,

I can understand how you felt rejected by your father as he said this harsh thing to you and that he stopped playing and hugging you after the incident with the boy your age. I do know that we pick partners similar to our father. I have to apologize...I dont understand what you mean with you understood you shouldnt have a sexual relationship with your father? I hope its ok I ask you, but did you think that time that you should have a sexual relationship with your father or did you just got that thought as he rejected you as you were with a boy instead? And I apologize again, I dont understand the rejection part between me and "my" father. I didnt get rejected as he might not saw me, what happened with me was that I acted sexually seductive, then running to my bedroom in shame. But I did run to my bedroom because I knew I had done something bad for myself. I think it was so bad for me because after this I dont remember anymore I did this,not until years later, I dont know why.

I am not sure what you mean with the rejection as he didnt reject me, I knew it was me who had done something shameful. And my father didnt respond in any way as he was outside the house. I was the only one responding to my own shameful act running to my room.

I dont know if I knew then, but I do think I knew all the time, that time too, that I should not have a sexual relationship with my father. Or do you think I may be wrong, that maybe I "did" think that? I find it difficult for me to get things in place concerning this.

I do know men care more about financial competition and so, but I do think sexuality is a far worse thing for a woman than financial stuff is for a man. Its two different things. But I know you are right about men this way.

I still bet that if the tables were turned, that men had to live in womens world, were woman looked naked men all the time and everywhere and the man felt small, he would not be so comfortable, The only reason why men doesnt care about men being nude is because there are no men being nude on tv, that is very rare. So he hasnt this problem. I bet if the tables were turned they would have felt just like us women. Maybe we should have lots of tv programs were good looking muscle men had great financial income and this was all that was on tv, I bet men would not have tv anymore:rolleyes:

I know I ramble, I just get so upset how many treat their woman with this bad stuff.

[spiritual_emergency]

sadgreeneyes: I hope its ok I ask you, but did you think that time that you should have a sexual relationship with your father...

No, I think I was far more interested in the boy's attention. My statement was related to the idea that a father is a daughter's first love interest. As an adult, love relationships often lead to sexual relationships but these are not appropriate between parents and children so I think it's very necessary that a daughter turn away from her father and that a father, reject on some level, the daughter's emerging sexuality. In my relationship with my father this rejection could be seen more easily in his refusal to physically interact with his daughters once we began to sexually mature.

By the same token, it is considered taboo for siblings to engage in sexual relationships with one another although at minimum, most of us will see our siblings nude as a result of our daily interactions. In some cases, this may cross over into sexualized behavior such as when your brother displayed his erect penis. Perhaps, like you, he was "acting" and trying to understand how he should be behaving with and relating to members of the opposite sex. Perhaps too, your husband had some confusion of his own when he earlier looked at pornography. Issues related to sexuality and self-worth can be very confusing and troubling for many people.

You may also find it reassuring to know that pornography is an issue that is difficult for many married couples to deal with. Many women feel as you do -- that it is evidence that they are not physically attractive to their partners, while many men feel ashamed that they look at it, either frequently or infrequently. It sounds as if your husband is aware that it hurts you but since it still bothers you, this too is probably something you should discuss with your therapist. They may be able to help you come to terms with some of your discomfort and learn ways of living in a very open, very sexualized world without becoming as distressed by it.

~ Namaste

[spiritual_emergency]

This is an interesting article about fathers and daughters, sadgreeneyes. It touches on some of the things we have talked about as well...

... Traditionally a father's place in the family has offered girls a sense of protection and safety. While this maybe a throwback to the caveman days when part of the male role was to protect his family this is still partly true today. The notion of a father who is home and available affords a sense of security for young girls even if the only protective behaviours men actually indulge in are the removal of the occasional spider from the bedroom wall or to reassure children that they are quite safe from those things that go bump in the night. There are not too many hairy mammoths roaming the suburbs these days so a man's capacity to protect his brood is severely limited. He can only do so much.

The real value of fathers in girls' lives is less tangible but more far-reaching. It is from fathers that girls learn their major lessons about the world of males. Okay, kids may spend hours in front of television observing men in their favourite soaps or watching action movie heroes solve most of the woes of the world, but today's young people are not easily fooled. They know the difference between celluloid heroes and real life people even if they don't recognise heroes in the flesh. It is from their fathers that both boys and girls gain their first-hand knowledge of how ordinary garden-variety men think, act and speak.

The implications of this are scary. In a sense fathers teach their daughters how they should expect to be treated by males when they get older. They teach them by the way they speak and act toward them and through their treatment of other females especially their own partners. The high proportion of girls who grew up with violent fathers who marry similar men or live in relationships with violent men is testament to the strength of this type of conditioning. The message for dads is simple - be gentle, be respectful and allow your daughters to be assertive towards you.

Fathers usually experience very special relationships with their young daughters but can feel extremely awkward when their 'little girls' reach adolescence. Many girls describe how a previously close relationship with their father evaporated when they reached adolescence. Coming to terms with a daughter's emerging sexuality is a problem for many dads which is often reflected in a lack of physical contact and sometimes sheer panic if his adolescent daughter appears seductive.

There is increasing evidence to suggest that fathers are linked to the development of a girl's healthy self-esteem particularly in adolescence. At a time when 60% of teenage girls have dieted presumably in search of the perfect female figure presented in magazines a father's positive comments may well make a difference to how his daughter see herself. Reluctant as many dads are to complement their daughters' positive comments about appearance and dress sense can be very reassuring. Most girls, like boys, still want their fathers' approval - although many don't know how to gain it...

Source: Fathers Raising Daughters

[sadgreeneyes]

Thank you for explaining, I do understand more what you meant now, still I dont understand why I have such dread and my own situation quite.

I feel more than just humiliated, its a deep feeling...that when it happens I have a strong feeling that my man likes it in the sense that he finds it amusing to know I get hurt of it. Like he wants to abuse me with it even its out of his control when things show up on tv. Sometimes I would feel better I didnt tell about my fear to my man as they have used it against me before. I am thinking if my man doesnt know I have the fear he will not have the possibility to find it amusing and hurt me with it and use it against me. But I am aware that I cant pretend I´m not scared when it will show anyway in some way.

I mean that women have the right to live in her home without this fear. I told my husband, as he wanted to see the beach, he knows I dont want to go there and I used against him the fact that would he like I did go to a bar full of men around me. He said no. Well, there you go. Then he said he understood. Going to the beach and show nudity is forbidden where he lives.

I dont want my man to become a western man. I hate my culture. All women have the right to live a life free of fear and abuse. So if my husband cant respect my right to live free of this in my home, he can just leave.I would do anything for him if he had a fear, I would never leave him of this reason.

[sadgreeneyes]

This is my positive timeline, maybe not much but its all I can remember.

Age 3 or 4: My mother was still at home and she sat with me before sleep a couple of times I remember and tickled me under my feet as I liked that so much.

Age around 8: We put chairs with blankets, to make kinda like a tent in the living room so we could hide in there, I liked the dark and to be in that tent.

Age 9: My brother brought home a cat, I liked the cat.

Age 11: Found a friend to be with till I was 12.

Age 13: Saw my mother again.

Age 15 : Had some joy living at a folk school even I had to stay there because the main reason was I was homeless.

Age 18 : Found my best friend and she still is the best friend I ever had. Even we lost much of the contact for years after I moved to west. These 3 years living in east was my best years as I had a real true friend.

Age 37 : found my husband, but I am still scared

You know, this is little difficult because there are no more positive things:confused:

[spiritual_emergency]

I amended your timeline sadgreeneyes, to include those positive aspects. It can be difficult of course to think about some of these things and to balance them, one against the other. Still, it's good to acknowledge that which has been beautiful.

Meantime, I wanted to share a story with you. This is a story that has been on my mind as I've been watching the news events related to what is happening in Egypt. When you noted your husband was Muslim, I thought that was interesting because some of my own explorations have taken me into Sufism. As I understand it, Sufism is the mystical branch of Islam. The story below helped me understand why those who follow an Islamic path feel a need to cover up the feminine. I think I understand now that in Islamic thought, the feminine refers to the interiority of a person for it's there that they will find their relationship to God/Allah/All That Is. Unfortunately, I think this has sometimes been distorted to suggest that there is something inherently shameful in being feminine to start with.

Anyway, this is a story from Sufism about the feminine that I think you will find some beauty in...

Sufi literature has the greatest discussion of femininity in Islam. Sufi stories have transformed ordinary love stories into the most sublime levels of meaning. The love story of Layla and Majnun is the best-known of all. It originated as a simple love story in Arabia, but Sufi literature elaborated it into the most beautiful love story ever put into Persian poetry. It symbolizes not only the love of man and woman in Allah, but the love of man for Allah.

In these poems the heroine is elevated to symbolize the Divine Reality itself. The Divine Reality is spoken of in terms of female beauty. The hero goes in quest of the Divine, which is a masculine act. In contrast to Christian mysticism, in which God is actively masculine and the devotee is passively feminine, Sufi love stories depict the Beloved as a woman who is a Presence waiting in stillness while the hero is in quest for her.

The name Laylá comes from the word layl meaning 'night'. Night represents the Unmanifest. In the Arabian desert, the night is a reality without boundaries: forms are dissolved, no sand dunes or camels or anything else visible, all is formless, nothing but darkness. This is direct symbolism of the unmanifested aspect of the Divine Nature, Allah as Unmanifest. Blackness absorbs all light, as it is above manifestation, so it symbolizes the Beyond-Being.

In the poem, Layla was named for the blackness of her hair and the beauty of the night. By extension, it in fact refers to the beauty of the Divine Reality beyond this world, beyond the act of creation, and therefore the supreme goal that the Sufi seeks to reach. The name of Majnûn literally means 'crazy', but here it means someone not in an ordinary state of mind, symbolizing a person in quest of Allah. In this world in which most people forget Allah, the person who remembers Him is considered crazy.

As the male figure, Majnûn symbolizes the aspect of yearning and striving, going out in quest of Layla, while she is just sitting and combing her hair. The one who undertakes the journey, longing and crying for Layla, is the soul of the Sufi.

I really love that story.

~ Namaste

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