Is it possible to change orientation?

[Damo71]

I knda know what the stock answers are going to be: "No" or "Why would you want to, better to accept who you are".

I know that the subject is controversial and can upset many as well. I appreciate that there will be many gay men who would take offense even at hearing the question - I understand that - but I mean no offense.

Everybody is entitled to feel how they want to feel about themselves. When it was illegal to be gay, men and women fought for (and eventually won) their rights to be the people they wanted to be without fear of recrimination.

But surely if it is fair in society for a man to want a sex change, it must also be fair for a man to want a sexuality change.

So, with the greatest respect - I'm not really asking for help to come to terms with my homosexuality. I'm asking if any serious studies have been done where, through psycotherapy, a person has been able to align their sexual preference to their choice.

Although it seems absurd to me, I even wonder that I might not be gay anyway? I mean, I am in my late 30s, have never had a sexual experience (apart from a period of abuse when I was a boy). But, when I masturbate I only think of men. I find myself attracted to men - especially ones who seem to excel in the manly traits that I feel are so missing in me. So for obvious reasons I call myself "gay".

But when I think of sex with women, I'm not sure it doesn't turn me on because I simply dont fancy them, could it be that my feelings of inadequacy as a man (especially as a sexual male) is causing me to reject the idea of sex with women.

Anyway, I am honestly hoping for some insights here.

Thanks

[AmericanPsycho]

Anything is possible with enough money. The fact is that if you were born a male, you'll always be a male. You can get it chopped off. You can take female hormones. You can get breast implants. You can dress and act like a female. When it's all said and done you'll still be a male.

[Damo71]

I think you might have got the wrong end of the stick? My question is about a sexuality change - not a sex change

I'm not happy with my gay feelings. I want a wife and a family - it feels right and I want it.

[eppursimuove]

at the end Damo i think u will be what u are, and i dont know if its good to supress these feelings.

do u go to a therapist? where u can talk about this.

and pls dont go to wallmart.

Edited May 7, 2012 by eppursimuove

[Lana73]

Wallmart???

[Damo71]

Well, I guess this is the thing.

"Surpress" has a very negative sound to it, Kinda like "hide".

If i'd said in my post that I find myself attracted to children and that i want to not feel that way... I'm guessing that most would say something along the lines of "you NEED to surpress those feelings" well, perhaps not surpress, but work through them. In any event you'd say that I should not foster them or indulge them (my feelings, that is).

Now I don't mean to compare consentual sex between two adults with child sex abuse... But what I'm saying is that there are times when a persons desires are (for whatever reasons) not considered proper and should therefore be battled with. That being the case, I'm presuming that suggestions for how to move a person's sexual desire in a more "healthy" direction must exist.

So even if we have completely different feelings about what is "normal" when it comes to sexual desire, we are living in a world where the current philosophy on life is to "live and let live", and so that is why i wonder if (even only in theory) there are methods, therapies or other cognitive devices that can have an affect on a person's sexual thinking if that person has a desire to change theirs.

The other question is - what if heterosexual desires are being surpressed? - What if (like I suggested earlier) I'm not as "gay" as i think I am?

To answer your question, no I havent addressed the issue with a therapist. Its only in the last couple of years that ive been able to face my demons, and they're falling away little by little.

Thx

[eppursimuove]

i dont really think u can change ur feelings easily. and i think u sould work this whit atherapist and i hope it goes well for u, the good thing i think is that u know what u want to change. but in anycase if u need to talk about it feel free.

Edited May 7, 2012 by eppursimuove

[AmericanPsycho]

I'm not happy with my gay feelings. I want a wife and a family - it feels right and I want it.

Homosexuality is a learned behavior. If something can be learned, it can be unlearned. I don't see anything stopping you.

Edited May 7, 2012 by AmericanPsycho

[Ralph]

So even if we have completely different feelings about what is "normal" when it comes to sexual desire, we are living in a world where the current philosophy on life is to "live and let live", and so that is why i wonder if (even only in theory) there are methods, therapies or other cognitive devices that can have an affect on a person's sexual thinking if that person has a desire to change theirs.

I am a gay man who has tried to go straight. It didn't work out. In my searching I was not able to find even one bona fide account of anyone who successfully changed their orientation through therapy. Of course those who make their living running "ex-gay" centers will disagree with me on what qualifies as a bona fide change, but in my opinion they have such a vested interest in such therapy being successful that they cannot be objective. The American Psychological Association has considered the issue and concluded that therapy to change orientation does more harm than good. (You can easily find the details through a web search on the words: APA conversion therapy).

What can succeed is you change behavior so you hold down a marriage, etc., which sounds like it is fine for you. Most of us are at least a little bit bisexual, so if you cultivate certain desires and ignore others it may be possible to extinguish the unwanted desires. However I was not successful in this effort when I tried it on myself. I am very nearly exclusively gay though, if you are more bi then this might be an avenue to explore.

The other question is - what if heterosexual desires are being surpressed? - What if (like I suggested earlier) I'm not as "gay" as i think I am?

It sounds like there is a self esteem issue as a layer to this. In my experience true self esteem comes as a side effect of self-discipline. This will be something to address in either case (gay or straight), and may require the help of a professional therapist.

[Damo71]

Hi Ralph

Thanks so much for your answer, I appreciate the time and honesty that you put into it

May I ask why it was you wanted to go straight? And did you really want to settle down into family life? I know that this is my thread, not yours… But I asked because I wanted to assess whether there are differences in our two approaches and motivations and whether any differences in approach might mean the outcome could be different

I hear what you say about "real change" and bias in the reporting. I googled APA conversion therapy like you suggested. The trouble is I'm not 100% sure that I entirely trust their findings.

The problem is that this area is a minefield and it seems quite obvious to me on reading their findings and policies that the APA are not truly objective either - not at least in relation to helping those who don't want their sexual preference to stay the same.

If I'm right, I understand that. In fact they practically state as much. They do not and cannot be seen to condone the notion that homosexuality is a mental illness. Whilst that's fair enough, This in my view severely limits their objectivity and power to acknowledge the right of a gay person to choose not to be gay.

It would also likely have a profound effect on their willingness to consider as genuine those who say they have changed.

I guess the point is that religiously or financially motivated organisations are not immune to bias, political and societal pressures that may push them into exaggerating their successes, as you rightly point out. But then again, neither are that group's opposite number – which is effectively what they've declared themselves to be.

I've no issue at all with the APA for wanting to defend homosexuality as a legitimate lifestyle choice. But it doesn't look like they're JUST defending gay rights – it looks like they're championing their cause.

This is disappointing because I really need a professional to be able to disregarded their own convictions and just tell me whether something I ask for is possible.

As far as your observations about self esteem issues are concerned you make a good point – I'm not very self-disciplined at all – so I'm going to work on that.

Thanks again

Edited May 9, 2012 by Damo71

[Ralph]

May I ask why it was you wanted to go straight? And did you really want to settle down into family life?

I wanted to be straight for religious reasons and because I didn't like being the target of homophobic attacks. I wanted to have a family because that is very important in my religion, but I'm not sure if I really wanted kids or not.

This is disappointing because I really need a professional to be able to disregarded their own convictions and just tell me whether something I ask for is possible.

Professionals can do that. They aren't required to only agree with the APA, AFAIK.

[Damo71]

Thanks Ralph

That is helpful. My reasons are now partly related to my religious convictions, but also before I became religious I was always unhappy with my sexuality.

When I'm around functional families, especially where there are young children involved, I hanker to be a father, and for the life that they are enjoying. But homosexuality can be a very odd thing to define and pin down.

because I'm not sure whether my lack of sexual interest in women is due to a fear I have of them. Likewise I'm not sure my attraction to men isn't simply a learned behaviour. What I do know is that both my foster and real mother were both very dominant women. My foster mum used to use me in her fight with my mum. She'd complain to the social services that my mum's visits were making me a failure at school and would tell others that my mums disruptive behaviour was making me wet the bed etc. the point is, I was growing up thinking there was something wrong with me and I think I was envious of boys who were not as I pictured myself to be. as I started to develop sexually, boys were the focus of my attention and I think I began to see them as sexual tutors. I had a really titchy penis before puberty, and there was a point in my life early on when I became aware of it. That didn't help.

After my real mum won me back (I'd been in foster care for 9 years) she didn't do anything to alleviate these particular issues. Her new husband quickly got into the habit of mistrusting me. so many evenings I was subjected by both of them to a barrage of accusational questions about what I'd REALLY got up to in school that day, and what other things had I been doing wrong.

I had no chance of being a real man and living up to responsibilies as one because I was so useless and devious, they would imply.

As it happens, even though my step dad initiated most of these episodes, I hated my mum for it more because she was my mum and she should have protected me from it.

The point is, I felt like a failure. A failure as a male particularly. My reputation in their eyes of being naughty and devious became self fulfilling and I did lose heart at school and I did flunk my exams. And I was tall now and gangly, and to top it all, I thought my (now developing) penis was still too small.

About ten years ago, I wondered whether I had perhaps exaggerated in my mind the treatment I received at the hands of my foster parents and mum and step dad. Mum had just taken an overdose and I was reminiscing with my sister and trying to work out why mum and I weren't close anymore. my sister confirmed it wasn't in my imagination and reminded my that one day she through a plate of food at my stepdad because of his constant dinner-time interrogations.

Anyway, I digress! (but it was therapeutic to write that). The point is I find attractive in men the things I feel I lack as a man, and I am afraid that women are judging me as unfit. I know it not rational, but even when I find out a woman finds me attractive, i don't suddenly think I must have been wrong. I think there must be something wrong with them.

I guess you're right Ralph, I do need therapy. Even there, Im tense about getting into sessions because I'm concerned that the counsellor will blame my religion or tell me that I should accept who I am etc. I don't accept that these answers are the only correct ones.

Anyway Ralph, you've been great. You've answered with dignity when you could easily have been offended by my questions. Please feel free to comment more, otherwise, thx again.

[Ralph]

I think if you feel like a failure either generally or as a male then this will be an issue for you whether you are gay or straight. However I think you may already know this as you mentioned in your first post that you have not had any sexual experience yet. No competent therapist should question your desire to change your behavior so that more self esteem can come into your life. Perhaps if you start there you could build to the sexual identity piece and would it make more sense to the therapist?

IMHO a really good therapist would accept you wherever you are at and sort out the issues from your starting point, but unless you are rich and know how to find the right therapist it will be only a matter of luck as to whether you will be able to reach the rare therapist who practices in such a way.

Secondly you didn't state what religion you are, but there are religious counselors who will take your religion as a given, that is, they would work within the constructs of your religion rather than against them. I understand that you have concerns about therapy and these are valid concerns, but don't let that prevent you from taking the first steps. You might have to try out a number of counselors before you find the right one but it is possible to find someone who will work with you on your terms.

You could also start with self help. If you do I can recommend the book Intimate Connections by David Burns. It is based on CBT (cognitive behavioral therapy) techniques which can be practiced quite successfully through self study. It is focused on social skills but addresses the themes of adequacy as a male and has some specific plans for cultivating the same. Additionally it has tools to help you counter those thoughts which are irrational, such as "mind reading" that women find you unfit or the pessimistic assumption that only a woman with something very wrong with her is capable of finding you attractive. Those are just a couple options. If you want to get better it is possible even though some hurdles may be present in getting started.