Are Bullies just Simply Psychopaths and Narcissists?

[Someguy]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xx1v8pVAf6A

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3TDoGgjNfjk

Well, why should the victims feel ill?

Examine the so-called victorious.

These videos seem to indicate we live in a society

that actually admires these traits.

[Zebradee]

Narcissistic? Maybe.

Psycopathic tendancies? I think it depends.

I've been a bully before, and no, I'm not exactly proud of it.

But I don't really feel sorry for doing it either.

I seem to switch between having a complete lack of emotional depth to feeling things really intensely... I can go from crying about someone having been killed which is being reported on the news to just thinking "They weren't exactly important, why are we wasting valuable news time on them?"

I have no idea why I am constantly in two minds about things, it's confusing, to say the least.

[Peer Abuse]

Hi, I believe they are narcassistic and are psycho and socio paths. Bullies have serious problems. Someone is hurting them for them to be acting as they do. They learn this behavior and are angry from it and bring it to others. Instead of learning love and trust during those early years of life with a nurturing figure, they learned to become charasmatic, charming and manipulative to get those needs met. They are not learning empathy at all. They become self centered and selfish and could care less as to how they treat others or what they do to them. Many adult abusers today started out as childhood bullies.

They bring these problems to others and the victims suffer. Many victims are those who are more passive in nature or more sensitive. They do not have the social sophistication than others and are therefore easy targets. As a result of these bullies, the victims develop issues of their own like depression, social anxiety and post traumatic problems. Without therapy, these issues fester and become intertwined within a persons personality. The bully also brings these problems into adulthood.

This is why it is so important to see this as a form of abuse instead of just "bullying". Both the bully and the victim need counseling but this whole cycle starts with the bully and his own experiences. I wish schools and others would start investigating the background of a bully and I bet what they would find would be quite interesting....

[2002to2009]

These videos seem to indicate we live in a society

that actually admires these traits.

That's why I can't watch reality T.V.The implication is that human beings are shallow, manipulative, back-stabbing animals who must survive only by cutting other people down.The whole time I was being bullied, I refused to accept that was reality so I find it hard to deal with when confronted by it as an adult.

It's funny...the guy I'm currently in a relationship with has told me he was diagnosed with borderline personality disorder with sociopathic tendencies...and one of the things that attracted me to him was how gregarious he can be. Hmm.

Edited February 17, 2009 by 2002to2009

[2002to2009]

PeerAbuse: Well-said!

[malign]

Any time I hear "<some group of people> are just <some label>", I start to worry. I don't think any group of people, even bullies, are simple enough to fit under just one label.

I do sympathize with people who have been bullied (it happened to me), but I think that trying to deal with it by calling the bully a name isn't going to make things better.

I do agree that bullies probably have problems of their own, in fact, are probably victims themselves. I would prefer to reassure people who have been bullied that the bully's behavior is the bully's own responsibility, regardless of what made the bully a bully.

[Ob1one]

Bullies are regular people who want to exploit to make themselves feel more powerful. But even bullies are good people. I have a friend who used to be a bully who used to punch the guy into the wall knock him out for little or no reason. Now, he is a great loving teen who can now distinguish right from wrong and is willing to intervene in someones affairs to simply help them.

Not only is he no longer a bully but he saved himself from it before adulthood when he'd be thinking about how he hurt kids and think about for the rest of his life. He caught himself because he was misguided and he took himself out of the path he was following.

A philosophy a like is turn the other cheek because when a man hits you some people would think I'm going to kill him and me and some others would think about why this guy punched me. He must really be tormented inside by parents or maybe its just peer pressure.

You don't have to but you can choose to look at humanity in a way of why instead of its just like that for no good reason because then you might be able to understand humanity in a way you have never understood it before. If you're any type of Christian like I am non denomenational then you could start to understand humanity in a more spiritual way if you are Christian. If your not listen to what I have said before this part.

I hope this helps you understand more about bullies though as far as I know I may just be a whack job who has no idea what he's talking about so you can decide to accept what I have said or not though I hope you do because that means I'm not crazy(just messing around with this last part):)

Oh and I didn't read the replies so if I reiterated what someone else has said forgive me.

Edited March 4, 2009 by Ob1one

[marduk]

I promise you, If you don't bring yourself to terms with the bully, or in your mind, it will cause a world of hurt. Bullying is like a disease, it spreads to everyone it comes in contact to.The person being bullied has issues, that may spring low self asteem, or the victim may decide that's how to live their life.Either way, the victim is now spreading this disease to thers they come in contact with. I am 44 years old, my brother is a bully.The worst kind, he cares about no one but himself.He abused me in every way I can think of.verbally, violence, and even sexually.This started I think around 4 years of age. For God's sake go get help now, don't let the situation linger.I never dealt with my brother until recently. It has my mind so screwed up to the point that all I can think about is exposing him to the whole family.I am filled with hate for him, and anyone whom likes him.I won't speak to my parents. nor him. I am bipolar, so this is really not healthy for me at all.I am figuring out that bipolar is just some of my problems.

Whether bullying is just narcissistic, or a real mental disorder, I don't know, I can see both in every bully I know. My Brother, I think is just a low life thug.he is a spoiled brat, that had everything he ever asked for, and has never been held responsible for anything he's ever done.That is not an exageration.When people are not liable for what they do, they learn to expect it.This is a problem caused by my parents.I have paid for their mistakes. 40 years of bad to worse mental health. And yes I openly blame my brother, and parents to their faces for my sick mind they have created.I do need help, but I can't afford it. I will get worse around these people, I know it.

[Someguy]

Before you defend this behavior, the teacher got kicked out of the school for sexual harassment because the school got sued. A friend (enabler) in a high position hired him at another school. Bad behavior is often ignored if you develop a reputation of power and omnipotence.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NvXT7z_Embw

I've been studying 'splitting'.

It's all right to be angry once in awhile, but if you're constantly having tirades....well, I believe that's a marker for having a personality disorder.

More likely a cluster B drama type personality disorder.

Quote:

in Buddhism there is no such thing as “righteous” or

“justifiable” anger. All anger is a fetter to realization.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S_Fw2y2S6Ew

I think a lot of behavior we experienced as children was really due to being in a dysfunctional society to begin with.

[David O]

New brain science research is adding a wrinkle to what we know. For example, the neurosciences are suggesting that a bully’s brain may be hardwired to have sadistic tendencies. Brain imaging studies are showing that an area of the brain (amygdala and ventral striatum) associated with reward, light up in scans when aggressive boys watch a video of someone inflicting pain on others. Boys without a history of unusual aggression had no such response, and in fact, the areas of their brain that lit up were connected to executive function—rational decision-making and even shock at the violence.

The small study of 16-18 year olds - eight with a "conduct disorder" and eight with no aggressive tendency - suggests that in some boys, natural empathetic impulses may be disrupted in ways that increase aggression. Those with the conduct disorder had exhibited disruptive behavior such as starting a fight, using a weapon and stealing after confronting a victim. The study is not enough to clearly state this as “fact”, but it does point to a different way to view bullying.

On the other side, being bullied has been shown to damage or hinder the growth of new brain cells (in rats so far) and it could lead to depression. In a study of aggressive, older rats threatening young rats, the bullied ones generated new nerve cells in key memory and emotion regions of the brain. But most of those cells later died. The research suggests that stress kills young nerve cells. The neuroscientists team put a young rat in a cage with two older rats for 20 minutes. The older rats quickly cornered, pinned down and often bit the younger one. The younger rats became fearful and acted depressed around the bigger animals, with their stress hormones six times higher than young rats that were spared the stressful encounter.

And finally, there's a 3rd angle that has less to do with the bully and more with the bullied. Many who were bullied as children are also "provokers" of bullying behavior by their size, mannerisms, classroom and playground behavior, etc. While it's hardly their fault, it's disheartening to see children who never bully, begin to taunt and bully not weaker students, but students whose behavior is so annoying (e.g., chronic whiners and complainers, children who are clearly spoiled at home, those who dress or look different, and those with an emotional disorder) and disturbing that there is a generalized class anger that some students will eventually take out on the outcast.

Overall tho, bullying is a mostly a dance, and someone who refuses to be the victim is usually not bullied, those that join in the dance get hurt!

David (a non-bully)

Edited October 25, 2009 by David O

[xenophon]

It does take two to dance that dance. It depends upon what the person who is 'asked to dance' wants to do. I think that the person who gets the 'offer to be bullied' has to know that. And, what can be done about it. If one has the means, there is no real problem. You do what you need to do.

At work, I encountered a few bullies. I saw to it that consequences ensued.

In two cases, they changed their behavior. In two cases, I fired them for cause. Of course, I had the means.

Psycholically, I expect that they have a personality disorder of some kind; especially if they do not 'mature out'.

Cynically speaking, society often find those sorts of people useful in certain circumstances.

[IrmaJean]

Interesting. I always thought that bullies bullied others as an attempt to fend off deep fears of their own weaknesses and insecurities. They keep everyone at a distance this way so their worried truths won't be discovered. That way they don't have to face their weaknesses. Beat down your fears so they don't become you kind of thing. I've also wondered if there might possibly be something evolutionary involved with it. That part of it could be some kind of instinctive response to "attack" those who are vulnerable, like happens in nature. I hate to think of humans in this way, though it has crossed my mind before. It's a case where one would hope that the intelligence of human beings allows for more of an empathetic response. I would certainly hope so anyway.

[David O]

Hi IrmaJean,

I think the neurosciences (from above) give us just one more explanation for bullying, I think the other reasons you give are just as right. And as you suggest, you can also see it from an evolutionary perspective. As primates, we too live in social groups because there is safety in numbers and it's easy to find mates. But group living is not always easy; most individuals are self-serving and yet everyone has to get along.

Most monkey and ape groups work because the members sort themselves out by rank. Male chimps know exactly who's a leader and who's a follower. Female macaque monkeys also know their place and they line up accordingly when it comes to food. You can even see this in chicken coops (see McKay's The Pecking Order in Human Society) and with baboons, where the largest or toughest male has 1st choice with the females he wants to mate with.

But a social hierarchy is not as stable as it sounds. Everyone wants to be high ranking and the animals are always jockeying for position. I see this at work and in places where I have contracts with large organizations--- bullies and their pals form an in-group and exclude others. The preppie clique intimidates everyone else into their choice of fashion (remember the movie Mean Girls). Some nerd groups bond and create their own exclusive group that gives them academic rank while the jocks form groups for their rank in a school. And within these groups are pecking orders with some having bullies. So, real bullying can sometimes be an extension for the pecking order, but it's a pretty "sick" extension!

On a much more personal note-- when we first came to the US (I was 13-14), we were the very dirty, smelly, extremely dark skinned, skinny, poverty stricken and ugly migrant workers. We lived in tents at the foot of the fields and bathed in man-made canals and presented as the lowest of the lowest in society. The work we did was not done by any other American, no matter whether they were minorities or not.

I remember well guys driving around in pick-up trucks to find lone walkers from school or a small number of us. On spotting us, they would run us down by chasing us with their truck and cars until we were worn out, then would jump out of their cars/trucks and begin to beat us with bats, chains, sticks, horse-hair ropes, rocks, and fists. This was a pecking order in play-- a perfect example of group dominance over the minorities and foreigners. I have returned to this world and now these men, older like me, show none of the aggression of their youth. This maturing and seeing many of them sick, more frail, less angry, less mean-spirited... all contaminated my anger and loathing of them. It compelled me to forgive, for these men were no longer those teenagers of nearly 50 years ago.

These men, who were once adolescents that were angry, mistrusting and racist, were products of another time and another culture.

David

Edited October 26, 2009 by David O

[JulianP]

deleted.....

Edited February 5, 2010 by JulianP

[Donna]

ive often thought it's a form of self defence or prevention, a get in first type mentality...maybe even passive agressive?

People tend to fall in one of two categorys, Dominant or submissive,everyone to different extents and sometimes Dominant people express it in a more aggresive rather than productive way, Dominant people tend to instinctively attract submissive people and vice versa and can either bring out the worst or best in people. And often submissive people invite it without even realising it and put themselves in difficult positons, of course that doesnt excuse bullying.

and of course some people can be just plain cruel. but thats just my opinion.

[Tony J]

I remember bullying kids and I remember being bullied. Bullying someone else is better. I would imagine that most kids figure that out pretty quickly and will bully someone for no other reason then it gets the groups attention off of them.

The fact that some bullys are mentally ill doesn't mean that mental illness is the cause of bullying. I think it's just a natural part of the human condition. Were I a Darwinist I would applaud it as the 'fittest' being fit. Since I am steeped in the Judeo Christian ethic I just say 'There is a Hell and people go there for a reason'.

The latter may give more consolation than the former, depending on if I am the bully or the victim at the moment of utterance.

[Someguy]

You're making the assumption that bullying stops after grade school.

I had an art instructor admire the above teacher, yet accused me of being a bully. I suspect the art teacher has cluster B personality disorder, both of them. This is college, not grade school.

This is the way I draw:

http://pnhassett.blogspot.com

I am very aware of what bullying is. I have a facial paralysis, and to a certain extent I identify with JulianP story....however, I didn't retaliate out of fear of being mobbed. When you have a facial paralysis, people tend to make you a target...then anyway.

http://www.facial-palsy.com/facial_paralysis_pictures.html

http://www.facial-palsy.com/kids_with_facial_palsy.html

So, I've come to the conclusion that narcissism is epidemic in our culture:

http://books.google.com/books?id=OP1rmM_eSRkC&printsec=frontcover&dq=narcissism&ei=KzXmSsSYFpXgyQTO0MDiCw#v=onepage&q=&f=false

I see no other excuse to demean other people other then narcissistic pride.

[IrmaJean]

I remember well guys driving around in pick-up trucks to find lone walkers from school or a small number of us. On spotting us, they would run us down by chasing us with their truck and cars until we were worn out, then would jump out of their cars/trucks and begin to beat us with bats, chains, sticks, horse-hair ropes, rocks, and fists. This was a pecking order in play-- a perfect example of group dominance over the minorities and foreigners. I have returned to this world and now these men, older like me, show none of the aggression of their youth. This maturing and seeing many of them sick, more frail, less angry, less mean-spirited... all contaminated my anger and loathing of them. It compelled me to forgive, for these men were no longer those teenagers of nearly 50 years ago.

That must have been rather terrifying for a 13 year old, David. I think it is representative of a more specific type of fearful bullying behavior...fear of differences and fear of change. And your ability to rise above all of that and find the path to forgiveness...

Imagine what our world could be like if everyone could accept that we are all flawed human beings on the very same journey together?

Julian, it never ceases to amaze how just about everything with me goes back to my family dynamics as well. I think male sensitivity offers a nice balance to all of the Rambo-type personalities out there.

I was teased pretty mercilessly throughout my school years too. I have 3 older brothers and so was very sports involved. There were whispered rumors...untrue rumors... that I was gay. I was likely an easy target due to my lack of assertiveness and my distaste for confrontations and disharmony of any kind. I just allowed it. I think it likely hurt my self-esteem some, but I have l recovered well from that and hold no grudges.

Awesome drawings, someguy! I'm sorry that others have treaty you poorly.

Edited October 27, 2009 by IrmaJean

[Tony J]

Oh no, that's not what I meant at all. It never stops until the bully feels he can't pull it off anymore.

I just wanted to comment on the thought that it's a mental illness. I don't think it is. It's more of a social skill that allows the bully to control people and get what they want.

So my normal response is to try and make it not worth the bullies effort. I push back if possible, stall, generaly act non compliant in anyway I feel I can get away with. In short, I do my best not to reward the bully.

Most of the time they will move on to an easier target.

(survival of the fittest)

This could be dangerous in certain circumstances though. If I were being mugged by a group of armed guys I'd throw my wallet one way and run the other.

And those pictures really are great !!

You're making the assumption that bullying stops after grade school.

I had an art instructor admire the above teacher, yet accused me of being a bully. I suspect the art teacher has cluster B personality disorder, both of them. This is college, not grade school.

This is the way I draw:

http://pnhassett.blogspot.com

I am very aware of what bullying is. I have a facial paralysis, and to a certain extent I identify with JulianP story....however, I didn't retaliate out of fear of being mobbed. When you have a facial paralysis, people tend to make you a target...then anyway.

http://www.facial-palsy.com/facial_paralysis_pictures.html

http://www.facial-palsy.com/kids_with_facial_palsy.html

So, I've come to the conclusion that narcissism is epidemic in our culture:

http://books.google.com/books?id=OP1rmM_eSRkC&printsec=frontcover&dq=narcissism&ei=KzXmSsSYFpXgyQTO0MDiCw#v=onepage&q=&f=false

I see no other excuse to demean other people other then narcissistic pride.