This friend again

[sadgreeneyes]

It is silly of me to write and ask again here after my last post about this friend, but I do:o I still have contact with that friend of my ex abuser. He sent some messages today which disturbed me, yesterday I was crying much in front of him, about my ptsd, difficulties being in r/s again, BUT I have told him from the start we will only be friends and he agreed. Yes, I know the message he sent last time( which I wrote about in my previous post) made it clear how far he is capable of going to force himself on me.

He thinks he can help me, he sends good messages, but I have a feeling that his messages is more to hook me in ( yesterday I denied him to kiss me), he tried to break the boundaries again.

His texts say I have to chose, what I want, when are you going to accept me ( I have never said I haven´t accepted him ( IN MY MIND AS A FRIEND, HIS MIND I HAVE NO IDÈA WHAT HE TALKES ABOUT) ( but I was crying so much because I am not used to hear someone say they care about me), after everything I have done and said to you he continues, that he really do care about me, that I am worthy of love,and that he is not a violent and not caring person, that I do know, he says. Further that he can´t stop me if I should chose like all the men I have had before.

I am sitting left with this mind : Who has said I am looking for a man now, who has said I don´t know what I want. No one. This is his conclusion out of my pain yesterday, ok, but still, I do indeed know what I want when I want it. So I told him I do know what I want when I want a man again and that he didn´t have to worry, that I have control. He said : ok then. Good luck

Good luck? I have a feeling he is angry he didn´t get to manipulate himself on me as he already has broken the friendship boundaries. He is suppose to be happy for me, I expected a response like that is good to hear or something, but just good luck. Maybe he really meant it in best meaning, but I suspect different as he tries to get me. I think I am right, right?

GreenEyes

[Symora]

Hi GreenEyes, I don't think anybody can tell you what is right or wrong in this situation, you have to decide that for yourself. In my opinion though you two have very different ways of looking at life, and you are not going to figure each other out. The two of you are on different tracks.... This relationship, which has not even started in reality, is already making you crazy. What do you hope to get out of a relationship with him?

I get the impression he is from a culture where women and men are not <friends>, am I mistaken?

[sadgreeneyes]

Don´t you think it is wrong of a "true" friend to try to kiss you, push your boundaries and say he could become rough with you? I would say so.

I think he is p***ed now for not being able to manipulate me. But hey, that is his problem, not mine:)

[malign]

Yes, GreenEyes, we do. So how did he get the opportunity? :-)

In order to get him out of your life, you're going to have to get him out of your life, no?

[sadgreeneyes]

Yes, if this is how he will behave further ( I have told him 100 times we only will be friends ) then I see no other choice than to cut him off as a friend, I once told him true friends doesn´t cross boundaries, right after I said that he crossed it. I told him he said sorry, but tried it again yesterday. So I said I am not looking for any man, that he knows that...and that I have control, then he said good luck...to me it seems like he is p***ed.

We should go out in town to drink, so we sat at my place first, he acted nice all the time, like a friend. But later he asked could he kiss me, just out of the blue!

The I knew for sure he´s not a friend, he´s someone who tries to get me to be his. And I have made it clear so many times to him. Obviously he chose not to hear me.

Well, now he´s probably angry because he doesn´t come anywhere with me, but that isn´t my fault. So if he is then he must just be as he is the one who has behaved wrong.

:mad:

[David O]

Hi SadGreenEyes,

I remember your last post and was disturbed then by the direction he had taken the relationship. It seems that once again, he has managed to get to you, and as Malign wisely stated..."In order to get him out of your life, you're going to have to get him out of your life, no?"

Following is a passage I had written to someone else in a similar cyclical relationship, and I think it applies here very well. The most basic insight and one that likely affects 75-90% of those who write into the forum is just this (and all of its’ cold reality):

Most unwanted behavior occurs because we, in part, want it to occur and put ourselves in situations where it is hard to avoid or don’t make the complete effort to remove ourselves from the settings that trigger it. In your case, you want him to leave you alone and yet you seem to allow him to re-enter your life as if to both push him away and pull him towards you. Most men will go away once they have very, very, very clear evidence they're really no longer welcome-- clearly he either is not too bright or the message has not been delivered by you in a way that he understands. And keeping him as a friend sends him a mixed message, so he sticks around b/c he sees a potential opportunity to be alone with you-- what would that spell?

Yes, this is a cold fact and I don't mean it to sound so, but sometimes a sort of wake-up slap in the face to ourselves is what is needed. Most people struggle with this idea and so they create arguments and all sorts of private logic and mental gymnastics to not have to face it-- but it is a hard truth I've had to face and one that most of those who are or have been in therapy have also had to confront, but usually in less harsh terms.

Sad, please don't turn this message off b/c the words are so direct, harsh sounding and even insensitive appearing, this is never my intent. I believe that sometimes the most compassionate, caring, concerned and kind thing we can do for someone else is to speak the truth w/o the intent to only do what is right and best for that person. This truth may well save your life and keep you from being hurt deeply (as in raped, based on his text message from last time).

My sincerest hope is that you will listen to everyone's words here, and from the previous thread you started-- we've all much said the same thing although in different ways: this is a dangerous relationship, one that may end up hurting or permanently damaging you.

With much compassion,

David

[sadgreeneyes]

Hi David,

thanks for reply, thanks to you all of you:)

The thing is there are no mixed signals,David, it has been clear from the start, he has stated it himself several times in the beginning that we are going to only be friends and that I didn´t have to worry. So this is a typical abusers tactic.

But I do understand your post though, it´s hard to move yourself from situations. That doesn´t mean I want bad things to happen, I thought he really meant he would stay friends. Abusers always lie and say they have same values and further, then we find out they have hidden agenda. Lets say a "normal" guy, he would never say he wants to be friends for so to cross your boundaries, he would not think like an abuser, he would know friends means friends and to be friends with someone you have to let them into your life or you are not their friends. You know. So I let him in because that is what you do with friends. Being friends is not pulling game. It´s just a fact that abusers doesn´t care boundaries even they agree with you. They are not thinking like normal people do. Words has different meaning to them than to us who are normal.

I guess maybe you mean to say that men or woman usually hope for something more, but I mean that when all things are put on the table from the start it is his own fault if he is thinking something else.

I would believe many men have female friends and many woman have male friends and they stay friends and they don´t go around waiting for something. That would mean no woman can have male friends, that is not reality.

I light went up for me, Maybe you mean slap in the face to wake up AFTER this guy has shown he is crossing my boundaries? then I can understand you, because then I am that part which makes him think he can continue trying and pushing, is that what you mean? it took a while for me to understand the part waking up, so hopefully that is what you mean.

I just thought he could be a friend as many have friends of opposite sex. But I see I that was not his intention. So he goes around being p***ed is indeed his own fault. I agree if I let him in again now he can think aha she still let me in. Yes, now I see you point. Then I agree it could lead to bad things. I said to him I have control not to let my ex abuser or any bad man use me again. Then he said alright then, good luck. The "good luck" he wrote felt like " ok, good luck and see if you are able to stay away from the bad men who will treat you bad". I don´t need him to worry for me when he himself has said he could force himself on me. He has already said who he is, he must think I am stupid.

I have to be strict now after this. Thanks for all advice/info and opinions:)

[David O]

I light went up for me, Maybe you mean slap in the face to wake up AFTER this guy has shown he is crossing my boundaries? then I can understand you, because then I am that part which makes him think he can continue trying and pushing, is that what you mean? it took a while for me to understand the part waking up, so hopefully that is what you mean.

I know this isn't easy-- giving up those who we want to believe are really our friends and are sincerely interested in our well-being. I think it's made even harder when one has few real friends. But I think you get the picture--- in no way can he be in your life (even if it's to fix your broken water pipe) if you want to keep that solid boundary. Anything you give him in terms of letting him in is an opportunity for him to twist your intent.

His being angry with you means very few things: 1) I can use anger to control her as it has worked with others b/c they soon cave in; 2) I'm angry b/c I didn't get what I wanted (to sleep with you by force or slowly working you; and, 3) I'm angry b/c I was found out to be manipulative and a liar. There could be others, but in this situation, I think it's safe to say it's one of the 3 above.

Please take care of you... you are a gift, as are all of us, and the greatest privilege in the world is to be you. Don't toss this gift around w/o meaning. Better to be alone and lonely than connected to something that carries poison into your life.

[sadgreeneyes]

Thanks David,

I totally agree with you, he´s angry because of one of those 3 things you mentioned or a mix of them. I even felt bad after my last message to him and said I hope he didn´t take it negatively, that he is a good friend, that he knows I think so. Listen to me, I know, it´s ridiculous how I lie to him just because I felt bad. And I know very well I have no reason to feel bad.

His intention isn´t to help me, but to get me, to sleep with me, I know so well their thinking, these abusers. But I know that will never happen as I am not attracted to him.

I know he never will get me, I have no problem protecting me from someone I am not attracted to. I know at least who he is, did know earlier too, but I wanted to give him the doubt of the benefit after his first mistake, but now he has shown again he doesn´t care does he cross my boundaries.

Thanks David, for kind words, yes we are all a gift. Does w/o mean with other?

[David O]

Thanks David, You are most welcome

I totally agree with you, he´s angry because of one of those 3 things you mentioned or a mix of them. I even felt bad after my last message to him and said I hope he didn´t take it negatively, that he is a good friend, that he knows I think so. Listen to me, I know, it´s ridiculous how I lie to him just because I felt bad. And I know very well I have no reason to feel bad. Not only should you not feel bad... you should really feel nothing as you have done nothing but undo his plan to sleep with you. You did well and should feel proud of your decision. Interesting that you worry so much about this, I'm wondering if it's possible that he knows this about you and is trying to get you to feel bad by punishing you with his anger so that you will give in and let him have his way.

His intention isn´t to help me, but to get me, to sleep with me, I know so well their thinking, these abusers. But I know that will never happen as I am not attracted to him. One thing that might help you in the future is to write a personal ad, as if you were trying to find a relationship through the internet. This ad would describe what you're looking for in a partner/man and would help you out when you begin to get noticed by guys you may not be interested in. For example... and I'm a bit embarrassed to say this, but I'll show you mine :eek::eek: from many years ago so you can see what I mean (for mods who have to make fun of me-- now, play fair! I'll likely never hear the end of this one):

A mostly rational and sane man who can be equally mischievous & outrageous, seeking someone who is addicted to cheese-cake, horseplay and mud puddles; who is creative & spontaneous, upbeat, and is full of life and energy? She must be equally intelligent, possess genuine depth, an adventurous bent, witty & sharp, flexible, and great conversational skills? She should have a gentle, kind and forgiving spirit, and a straightforward and honest approach to others. She should love/enjoy art (whether museum art or street art), music (from Cuban, African, South American and World beat to big band, classical and classic rock), drama/theater, the outdoors (camping, biking, hiking, canoeing, horseback riding, etc.) and travel- which is slight obsession of mine. While I’ve flunked salsa classes twice (it’s my rational and sane brain, it gets in the way), I would love to have someone to dance with (I’ll teach you Spanish and how to cook Mexican food, you teach me to dance or we can learn together). She should know how to live simply but well (enjoy a real life!), have a friendly relationship with their life (they like their life and are happy), and appreciate togetherness and space.

I want to be with someone who knows the importance of chemistry and the gifts we can bring each other, at any age, at any time, in many forms. While I may be momentarily mesmerized by someone who is attractive and physically fit, I know all to well that in the final analysis that the soul & brains are the ultimate aphrodisiac. Having Christian, service minded and humanistic values and convictions (without an excessive conformity to a set of strict rules that govern their life) are extremely important to me. Yes,… I know this sounds like a “tall order,” but, I'm "offering," no less than what I'm asking for, plus quiet a bit more (this is beginning to sound like a used car salesman's speech-- sorry about that). Also note that while I may not be perfect- I am interesting.

I know he never will get me, I have no problem protecting me from someone I am not attracted to. I know at least who he is, did know earlier too, but I wanted to give him the doubt of the benefit after his first mistake, but now he has shown again he doesn't care does he cross my boundaries.

Thanks David, for kind words, yes we are all a gift. Does w/o mean with other?w/o means "without"

Good luck dearest Sadgreeneyes,

David

[sadgreeneyes]

David,

thanks so much for sharing, I have started to think about what I want in a man, I guess I have always known it, but for some reason I started to meet only abusers. One after the other, and they all were more bad than the first one, second one and so on...and it´s now I finally have had enough and have started taking care of myself, putting boundaries and keep them as best as I can. I know today what abuse is and can recognize it. I think writing down what one look for and want is a good thing to do. We have what is called green flags which shows us what is signs of a healthy relationship. I am sorry I don´t remember who said it, if it was someone on this board or someone else, but they said "anything that makes you feel uncomfortable" should be taken as a red flag.

Yes, you are right, I told him how hard it was for me to say no to people and that I feel bad and all that, but what I didn´t say is that I don´t have it like that with someone I´m not attracted to. Lol... bad for him..

It can also be my ex abuser already had told him.

But I shouldn´t have said it to him, I guess that made him think oh then I can too, she will say yes in the end if I just push hard enough in the end.. but he is so wrong.

So it is very likely he uses anger to make me feel guilty. I can say he has had that attitude twice the last two days. Like I should feel bad. But I know it´s so far from the truth that I have done anything wrong. It´s an act abusers have, they act how they want when they want so they can fool their targets, even pretending they are sad little puppies who has to be felt sorry for...oh yes...I saw that before we went out in town. I just looked at him and thought yeah yeah act a little more, you are doing great, but I see through you.

Thank you for good wishes and explaining w/o I wish you too and all here all the best, you are all amazing with support, very kind people:)

[Guest ASchwartz]

Hi Sadgreeneyes,

In my opinion it is useless to speculate about whether this man is angry or not. All you know is how you feel. Clearly, you do not want him to cross certain boundaries that he continues to cross. In my mind, you are completely right in severing all contact with him. It is just not good to be with someone who cannot take "no" for an answer.

Protect yourself, put a stop to this so called friendship. Real friends do not behave the way he is.

Allan:)

[David O]

Hi Allan,

I tend to see this slightly differently--- it's important for there to be a brief discussion regarding "why" or "what reasons" there may be for his anger. My thinking is not that it matters why he, specifically, is angry, but more so that Ms. Greeneyes understands these things for future reference, as there will likely be other men who will use similar ploys to get to her b/c of her very kind and gentle spirit.. and b/c she is a woman.

Being "educated" or knowledgeable about the male psyche, especially about the psyche of men who are exploitive, manipulative, calculating and users can be a lifesaving skill. In this case, I think this is apropo, but I can see that in many cases it would not be as important.

And like you, I truly believe that only a complete cut-off of the "freindship" can work, otherwise he will be lurking in the background waiting for his next opportunity.

Respectfully,

David

[sadgreeneyes]

Hi Allan,

thanks for replying to me!

You are right, real friends doesn´t behave like this. He hasn´t answered my last message I hope he didn´t take it negatively, so he is definitely angry or at least annoyed in some way as he understands he doesn´t get his way. He always answer, so it is clear he now understand I can´t be manipulated.

Unless he is trying to throw a guilt trip on me by being silent, but it doesn´t matter, no matter what he is thinking now it wont work on me.

GreenEyes

[sadgreeneyes]

Hi again David,

I agree with you both, there is no need to think whether he is angry because he has made his own road as he knew from the start we would only be friends and that he also stated it himself as I shouldn´t worry.

And I agree with you David, that it is important to know them for what they are and to recognize it when they show not to be your friends. I was little naive, because I should know after he broke the boundaries that he wasn´t actually a friend, as I have read page in and out about abuse. I chosed to ignore the red flag, something I should not have done. Anyway, even he broke the boundaries first time, I did again tell him friends doesn´t do that and that we are only friends and will be so, nothing more, he agreed again and said he just wanted to say what he said, so I was silly and was thinking ok maybe this time he will keep his words. But no. So I was naive. I see that now.

I believe that with once you see a red flag not to ignore it. I am now starting therapy for my " ending up in these situations with bad men". I do hope with time I will get comfortable enough to speak in much more assertive way. But I did with this guy, I told how it was clearly.

In this case its more I need to not ignore when people start showing signs they cross your boundaries, in this case it was clear as the day, still I did let him in:(

I guess I am to naive, being a kind spirit who gives people a new chance even they have crossed the boundaries, but now second time I got much stronger.