The Jung Topic: Self Identity -- The Ego and Persona

[spiritual_emergency]

Hello finding my way. Life often keeps me very busy in a number of ways. Much as I enjoy conversations like this one, I may have to bow out for a few days as I'm expecting company through the weekend.

Please feel free to kick start an exploration/examination of the Persona without me. I will be back later to offer my own thoughts.

Meantime, I added a link to my post above as related to Edinger. I'm not sure if that's something that interests you but I hope to download the article and read it later this evening.

~ Namaste

[finding my way]

An article by Fitz-Randolph (google search:p) puts it this way

Carl Jung's concept of the persona plays key role in self development by protecting the ego and allowing full expression of personal identity.

A major task in acquiring self knowledge is understanding the relationship between who one is and how one presents oneself to the world. Adapting to certain occasions, behaving in a manner suitable to that occasion, and knowing how best to navigate a vast multitude of situations is a necessary part of life. For this one needs to develop a healthy persona.

Read more at Suite101:

What Is the Persona in Jungian Psychology?: How the Authentic Nature of the Self Adapts to Wearing the Mask http://clinical-psychology.suite101.com/article.cfm/what_is_the_persona#ixzz0x3G1ew9U

and

... it is important to note that a number of complications may arise. For example, if the fit between the persona and ego is too tight a certain rigidity or falseness in the personality ensues. The person acts in a more artificial or stereotypical way answering first to this outer persona while the real self stays out of view. What develops in this case is called a false self.

If, on the other hand, the persona does not develop at all, or develops to an insufficient degree, the individual will have a difficult time interacting with the outside world. This is expressed in consistently misreading cues from the environment or feeling uncertain of what is expected in seemingly straightforward encounters, or blundering about cluelessly. Without the necessary glue provided by the persona, there is simply too loose a fit between the ego and world. Both extremes are problematic

Read more at Suite101:

What Is the Persona in Jungian Psychology?: How the Authentic Nature of the Self Adapts to Wearing the Mask http://clinical-psychology.suite101.com/article.cfm/what_is_the_persona#ixzz0x3HUISoE

[Luna-]

Thank heavens for the Persona.

My Shadow - what I know of it - is a nasty piece of work; you'd all be horrified. :eek:

[spiritual_emergency]

The persona is the mask worn to greet the world. Optimally, this does not undermine the authenticity of the self. Its primary function is to navigate the space between the inner world of ego with its surrounding self and the outer world of values and culture. How these worlds rub up against one another is negotiated by the persona.

Read more at Suite101: What Is the Persona in Jungian Psychology?: How the Authentic Nature of the Self Adapts to Wearing the Mask http://clinical-psychology.suite101.com/article.cfm/what_is_the_persona#ixzz0x4oOqcTT

Ahh. How nice to see an acknowledgement of the inner world and the outer world. Great link finding my way, that leads to so many other fascinating links!

Luna-: My Shadow - what I know of it - is a nasty piece of work; you'd all be horrified.

lol! Noooo! It's not part of you. It couldn't possibly belong to you. Put that bit of ugliness away where no one will have to see it!

Besides... we're not supposed to talk about the Shadow.

Music of the Hour: The Wallflowers ~ One Headlight

[malign]

Only ... the Shadow's nose ...

[Mark]

Firstly, just a reminder that this particular thread is called "The Jung Topic" so naturally, that's where the focus will be.

Of course. I did not intend to derail. I was reacting to people talking about that essay I had done some years back on the "camps".

Jungian based therapy is the only "Western therapy" that has worked to understand, interpret and bring meaning to "psychotic content". The Jungian model is also the only one I'm aware of (perhaps there are others I'm not aware of) that is large enough to contain the experience of psychosis. Psychosis cannot be contained by the ego and thus, it cannot be explained or understood from within an ego-based psychological model.

It is certainly in large part a different focus from much of the rest of the western canon. Another guy you might like to look at is Ken Wilber if you are looking for other "systems capable of representing psychosis". There is a name given to the family of these approaches that talk about what is under and above (if I may use a spatial metaphor) the ego. Transpersonal Psychology? I'm not sure exactly, but it's something like that.

Mark

[spiritual_emergency]

Mark: Of course. I did not intend to derail. I was reacting to people talking about that essay I had done some years back on the "camps".

Derailment wasn't my concern. I just didn't think we could fairly look at all camps when it had already been determined to focus on the "Gnostic/Humanist" camp.

Another guy you might like to look at is Ken Wilber ...

... But with transformation, the very process of translation itself is challenged, witnessed, undermined and eventually dismantled. With typical translation, the self (or subject) is given a new way to think about the world (or objects); but with radical transformation, the self itself is inquired into, looked into, grabbed by its throat and literally throttled to death.

Source: Ken Wilber: A Spirituality That Transforms

I sometimes think Wilber is far too pretty and has become far too popular to be worthy of listening to anymore but I do appreciate some of his stuff.

[Luna-]

Transpersonal Psychology? I'm not sure exactly, but it's something like that.

Yes, Transpersonal is right. Stanislav Grof et al.

From stanislavgrof.com:

Dr. Grof’s extensive research includes experiential psychotherapy ... especially the holotropic breathwork (a method he developed with his wife Christina), alternative approaches to psychoses, understanding and treatment of psychospiritual crises (“spiritual emergencies”), the implications of recent developments in quantum-relativistic physics, biology, brain research, and other avenues of the emerging scientific paradigm, for psychiatric theory and consciousness studies.

Okayyyy, back to the sweet, lovable Persona.

[finding my way]

It can be confusing at first to think of ourselves as having different aspects that perform jobs for us. We are used to thinking of ourselves as just one thing, "me." Standing back a few steps and observing ourselves in these various roles is very helpful if you can do it. Then you can start to understand the pressures each part is under, why they do what they do, and eventually bring in choices about how things could be done differently.

Relating to the outer world is an essential skill and an art. The part of us that does that is necessary, but it is not our totality.

My persona gets such a heavy workout with my job because it is so demanding. I can really feel the strain on my system and have to constantly work on balancing out that dynamic so I can feel the rest of me too.

[spiritual_emergency]

finding my way: It can be confusing at first to think of ourselves as having different aspects that perform jobs for us. We are used to thinking of ourselves as just one thing, "me."

When it comes to self-identity, most of us seem to think of this "me" as being comprised of the Ego/Persona. We might acknowledge a touch of the Shadow (corresponds with Freud's Id and concept of repression although Freud did not take those concepts beyond the personal). These three aspects -- Persona/Ego/A Touch of Shadow -- is what Jung would call Consciousness. Consciousness can be understood as that which we are aware of. The Unconscious is that which we are not aware of.

If we briefly return to the four ego states I introduced at the beginning of this discussion, we can see that most of them can be contained by Freud's concepts:

If this ego becomes deflated, we call it depression.

If this ego becomes inflated, we call it mania.

If this ego becomes displaced, we call it dissociation.

If this ego fragments, we call it psychosis.

Psychosis cannot be contained by Freud's model because the collapse of the Ego takes one into the Unconscious, possibly including what Wilber and Grof would refer to as the Transpersonal.

... Certain experiences, such as peak, near death, and mystical experiences often project individuals into another realm of consciousness that is often referred to as transpersonal or spiritual. At these times the ego is displaced or cracked open. This enables transpersonal dimensions of consciousness to emerge. Many of these experiences, despite their beauty and sublime character, are unnerving and terrifying.

Trauma, in addition to its ability to deconstruct reality horizontally in terms of belief systems and frames of reference, also initiates a vertical deconstruction. It either displaces or obliterates the ego. Victims are thrust into the realm of the Deeper Self without warning and preparation. This brutal exposure illuminates the fact that the ego is a mosaic held together by personal narration, continual feedback from others, and internalised object relations.

Trauma, in spite of its brutality and destructiveness, has the power to open victims to issues of profound existential and spiritual significance. The displacement of the ego forces confrontations with deeper levels of self and reality. Trauma throws victims onto a path that mystics, shamans, mythic heroes, and spiritual seekers have been walking for thousands of years.

Source: Spirituality & Trauma

See also:

- That wasn't just a bunch of stuff that got destroyed -- that was me!

- Ego Fragmentation in Schizophrenia: A severe dissociation of self-experience

Music of the Hour: Josh Groban ~ Let Me Fall

[Mark]

Wilber is far too pretty and has become far too popular to be worthy of listening to anymore

He certainly does have a bit of the guru about him, for better and worse.

So far as popularity goes that is not a criteria for judging the worthiness of the writing, IMHO. Rogers became very popular for a time and yet his writing continues to be profound. It's not like music where there is cache in being on of the "original" people to know about someone. If the ideas are good, they remain good whether or not they become well known or not. Now - as Freddie Nietzsche wrote somewhere, "a good book demands good readers" (paraphrased from memory), and when a "good book" becomes popular, many of the readers will perhaps be lacking that quality of goodness and not appreciate that book the way it "should" be appreciated.

[malign]

It's bound to be related to the old Zen thing:

"When the student is ready, the master appears."

If the master (any source of learning, any lesson) appears before the student is ready, the student just misses it, or misunderstands.

I know that I've acquired new pleasures from things I remember from my youth, based on new ways of looking at them. I guess I can thank my odd memory that they're not gone completely.

[finding my way]

The displacement of the ego forces confrontations with deeper levels of self and reality.

Thanks for the readings you are providing, SE. I can really see how trauma accomplishes this.

My exploration experiences with Jungian psychology were for the purpose of healing and my own ego structure was more of the fluid type described in one of your links.

A great bulk of the work I did was to willingly go into those realms using various "exercises" as vehicles and lots and lots of reading about it. It was for sure a confrontation at times, but I could feel a beneficent undercurrent almost always. I just want to bring up that trauma isn't the only initiation into these contents, and there are a variety of ways to interface with the unconscious if we are open to it and maybe have someone to show us how.

Don't answer this if it is too personal SE, but do you feel safely related to your unconscious parts now?

[IrmaJean]

SE, thank you so much for the Josh Groban song link. He's my favorite singer. (new album very soon! )

The way I have had some success getting in touch with my unconscious mind is by going right inside my triggers. I find if I can face what hurts me, look right within the pain, I find a whole lot of answers about my deeper motivations and such. Don't know if this is typical?

Malign, I can relate to your thoughts. I recently have discovered some deeper areas in my mind and it does give one a different, more expanded view of things.

[Mark]

Many of these experiences, despite their beauty and sublime character, are unnerving and terrifying.

I'm reminded:

Who, if I cried out, would hear me among the angels' hierarchies?

and even if one of them pressed me suddenly against his heart:

I would be consumed in that overwhelming existence.

For beauty is nothing but the beginning of terror, which we are still just able to endure,

and we are so awed because it serenely disdains to annihilate us.

Every angel is terrifying.

Duino Elegies, 1, Rainer Maria Rilke. Translation: Stephan Mitchell

[Mark]

the ego is a mosaic held together by personal narration, continual feedback from others, and internalised object relations.

I think that is part of what Wilma Bucci is talking about (see link earlier in thread), and her work is trying to put a new foundation based on neuroscience in place underneath traditional (old-school) freudian theory. Many parts of our being are non-verbal/spatial/perceptual/emotional and cannot be rendered in language. Different physical parts of the brain are in tension all the time, as Bucci says, partially integrated and partially dissociated at the same time. The non-verbal parts are part of our awareness nevertheless, or influence it without being something we can identify with.

[finding my way]

IrmaJean, I like your method

The way I have had some success getting in touch with my unconscious mind is by going right inside my triggers. I find if I can face what hurts me, look right within the pain, I find a whole lot of answers about my deeper motivations and such.

that gets right down to it!

[IrmaJean]

I always liken that to a burning house. You have to run through the flames first in order to find the room that holds the treasures. Sometimes the right questions can take you there if you are willing to look for the honest answers.

[Mark]

SE,

Never heard of Grof before but he sounds interesting. I've asked David Van Nuys (who does our Wise Counsel Podcast Interviews, as well as his own ShrinkRapRadio (SRR) podcasts) to see if he will sit for an interview. The current interview on SRR is with James Hollis who is a Jungian guy speaking on the topic of the midlife crisis; Probably quite relevant here, so I mention it).

Any other (living, obviously) clinicians in this vein we're mining here who would be interesting to be able to ask questions of or listen to an interview of? If you can provide names and maybe some links to contact info, I will see if it can be arranged. Candidates should be able to speak with relevance on the topic of psychotherapy (theorists or researchers who are not therapists are fine to interview if their work helps inform psychotherapy). We're also open to interviewing people who have experienced psychotherapy from a patient/client perspective and have a story to tell that others (including therapists) would benefit from.

Mark

[finding my way]

Take a look at this site, Mark, as maybe someone to interview

http://www.wingedheart.org/

Internal Family Systems takes Family Systems therapy into the inner world of a person, noodling out the roles and dynamics occuring between the different aspects or "parts" inside a person. This therapist and author specializes in organizing these parts around a central core (seated more deeply in the psyche than the ego) and offers training in

... a model of psychotherapy which integrates spirituality into the therapeutic process. The core of the model is based on ego state work from a systemic perspective using methods from Richard Schwartz internal family systems model and draws heavily on Buddhist psychology. The method is readily integrated into psychodynamic psychotherapy, Jungian therapy, cognitive therapy and ego psychology.

[malign]

Any other (living, obviously) clinicians in this vein ...

I'm sorry: I'm now imagining writing "interviews" with what you could call "passed masters" ... :-)

I think it would be a lot of fun to get a bunch of dead psychology theorists into a room and watch them duke it out.

Like, a "zombiecast".

[finding my way]

[ewwwwww, now I'm picturing zombies hatching from pods to come out for their interview!!!! Here's one now::eek:]

IrmaJean, is there any significance to your house being in flames before you can reach for the treasure? Are there days when licking flames are not required?

[malign]

"Vy no, Herr Jung, zat is just a cigar, but zees is my feest, und you are now in zee Unconscious!"

Freud always did get the snappy comebacks.

I really meant, it would be interesting to hear them debate, but I guess an all-out brawl would be fun, too.

[finding my way]

They did brawl, sort of, and had a falling out... I can just imagine that scene (as you describe it)!!

[IrmaJean]

IrmaJean, is there any significance to your house being in flames before you can reach for the treasure? Are there days when licking flames are not required?

Oh, that's just me attempting to be symbolic. I do really think that sometimes you have to face the pain... stare it in the eye... in order to free yourself from it. That's why sometimes I don't mind being triggered, despite the discomfort. There is some part of me that wants to get at the new information. So I see it as a learning opportunity. Most of my flame-licking took place in therapy, but occasionally I still discover some new things about myself.

Malign, you should really write a book of quips. Zombiecast? :eek:

Sorry I'm straying off-topic here...