Sexual Assault? (May Trigger)

[SongBird]

Hey, so my friend just related this story to be about her boyfriend, who she recently broke up with. To me, it sounds a LOT like sexual assault...any advice? I copy/pasted right from our chat.

"we didn't kiss for the first three months per my request because kissing freaked me out. I finally gave in because I thought I was a whimp, and I slowly got used to the idea of a guys tongue in my mouth. things stayed pretty un-hands on until about six months into the relationship. I can't remember how fast or slow things progressed, it's all a blur, but it wasn't long before he was taking off my bra or putting his hands down my pants. I protested- often- and pulled his hands away and stuff, but it didn't do much. at some point he started... *winces* sticking his fingers inside me. it felt somewhat good, but mostly painful. I'd tell him no, I'd pull his hands away, but he'd push harder and it'd hurt so much but kind of felt good that I'd forget to tell him no. or it'd be a pathetic, whispery no. when the pain got to be too much I'd pull away violetnyl and he'd stop, but often not for long. I was so sore down there so often... and occasionally it'd cause bleeding. as the relationship moved on, he started guiding my hands lower, and he'd move my hand against his penis until I got the idea. and while he never threatened me or anything, I always felt afraid, terrified, confused...the couple times I had oral sex with him, it was at his insistance or asking and I was too scared and confused to really tell him no. frankly, I found it gross either way, but he wanted to try and I while I never said yes, I never really said no, either. I just implied the no. we almost had sex a few times- he had me in his bed, undressed completely... but I always stopped just in time. it was pleasurable, at least somewhat, in the moment, but there was always the underlying terror and after wards I was always a mess. I'd cry myself to sleep sometimes after it...that's it, I think."

[pseudome]

I'd agree with your instinct that this was wrong. I have no idea what advice to offer. How old is your friend?

[SongBird]

She is 18 years old, still living at home, and her mother is VERY strongly against her daughter going to therapy (she went to therapy for a time and struggles with depression, but her mother told her flat-out that nothing was wrong with her, and refuses to pay). Her boyfriend is also 18. I believe this started when they were both around 16 or 17 though.

[pseudome]

Yeah, I'm not sure what to suggest. If she's still in high school, maybe she can talk to someone at school? A school counselor or something? Hopefully someone else on here chimes in with real advice. Your friend is at least lucky she has you to confide in. I hope she is able to get help.

[SongBird]

She graduated last year and is in the process of transferring schools, which makes getting help from her university difficult. It's one rather big mess.

[Guest ASchwartz]

Hi Songbird,

I am unclear about her transferring schools. Do you mean she is transferring to another college? Of course, that would make it difficult to get counseling until she's at her new college.

This is a difficult situation for her because, if she was under sixteen, she was under age for sex and he could be charged with molestation. Now, I am not entire certain about the age limit.

At the time she was 16 you can just see her young age at work. She did not know how to say no. She found it both pleasant and painful. Yet, she kept seeing this boy. Let me correct myself, she did say no about certain things but kept going. She did not leave. Not her fault. She was very, very young and that is why there are laws about sex with underage girls. Perhaps its not too late for him to be charged. I don't know but it might be worth it for her to ask.

She most certainly is important, extremely important, for her to get help, regardless of her mother.

Anyway, in my opinion, this was molestation. Would the law agree? I don't know. Does she believe she was molested? I hope so because he, despite his young age, kept pushing himself on her and would not take no for an answer, even if it was a weak no. No is no and that is all.

My opinion

Allan

[SongBird]

She is right in the middle of transferring colleges, yes. Her new college is over an hour away from her house, and until she moves there in the fall, it would be impossible for her to go out there to get help. They were both over the age of consent when this all began. She gave me specific examples later of what happened--he ignored her protests about oral sex and continued to pressure her into a lot even though she told him she didn't want to do anything right from the beginning, and continued to say no even as he went further. She didn't break it off for a long time because part of her felt like she deserved it--the only reason she did end it was because I was beginning to catch wind of what was going on and was beginning to insist she leave him.

[Guest ASchwartz]

Hi Songbird,

She is lucky to have a really good friend like you. Oh yes, she was sexually assaulted, no doubt about it in my mind. When she gets settled into college, she really should seek counseling there. Are there any self help groups for women who have been raped or suffered similar offenses? They are usually free and can be very helpful. Her mother need not know about her attending. Maybe there is even a group at the school? Also, if she did an Google search, she might find some groups within her geographical area.

I tell you, this stuff makes me angry. I have two daughters, now adult, and the thought that anything like that could have happened to them would have thrown me over the edge. These guys should be arrested, found guilty, imprisoned and throw the key away.

Also, as a therapist, I have seen too much of this type of thing. It's outrageous.

Allan

[SongBird]

Allan-

Thank you very much for the advice. I passed it on to her, and hopefully we can get something smoothed out before too much longer. It's sad because they share a lot of the same friends, and literally no one would have guessed it--I know him too, and he seems like a total sweetheart. The surface hides the depths so well, I guess. The thing for her is she keeps second-guessing her realizations--she thinks she's overreacting, and I told her every time she thinks she's overreacting to the situation, she needs to imagine that the roles were reversed--all that happened to her happened to me. I told her that if it seemed like assault then, then it was assault for her too. Was this the right thing to do? I'm training to be a therapist, but I'm only just getting started. It seemed to help her realize that she wasn't overreacting...

[hell2breakfast]

If she is 18 and didn't say no it is not sexual assault imo, more like she dumped him because he wasn't man eneugh to take what she was offering and so she is offering it to you instead (Naked in his bed, giving him oral sex, etc.) Any college student in the digital age knows the facts of life.

Where in the world are the parents, or in this case the mother, which should be held to account for allowing her daughter to date a sex abuser, which I very much doubt he is.

Also, the fact that the mother is mentioned, but not the father, speaks volumns, the girl obviously has mental issues and I would be careful advising her in this matter, except to seek qualified counseling.

Anyway, that is my gut feeling based on the limited information, if she is even telling you the truth, she could be making the whole thing up for all you know.

I would be careful if I were you. JMO

[pseudome]

If she is 18 and didn't say no it is not sexual assault imo, more like she dumped him because he wasn't man eneugh to take what she was offering and so she is offering it to you instead (Naked in his bed, giving him oral sex, etc.) Any college student in the digital age knows the facts of life.

Where in the world are the parents, or in this case the mother, which should be held to account for allowing her daughter to date a sex abuser, which I very much doubt he is.

Also, the fact that the mother is mentioned, but not the father, speaks volumns, the girl obviously has mental issues and I would be careful advising her in this matter, except to seek qualified counseling.

Anyway, that is my gut feeling based on the limited information, if she is even telling you the truth, she could be making the whole thing up for all you know.

I would be careful if I were you. JMO

I'd trust that SongBird knows her friend and the situation better than any of us and that she is representing what she believes to be the truth here. Claiming the girl has mental issues and is lying simply because no father is mentioned seems a bit over the top.

[IrmaJean]

Yes, I would imagine that Songbird has the best insights into her friend's situation.

It is very simple really, from my perspective. No means no. End of story. I think there is some confusion in thinking that because two people are within a relationship, it is okay. When one person involved says no, this is where it has to end.

Songbird, I think it's wise advice to tell her to trust her instincts. I hope she is able to find some good counseling that is helpful to her.

[SongBird]

Thank you, IrmaJean and Pesudome, for standing up for both myself and my friend.

Hell2Breakfast, allow me to make myself a little clearer: This girl is my best friend; I have known her for years, and I am very famliar with her ex boyfriend as well. SHE DID SAY NO, in case you need that in caps lock in order to read it, as I did indeed post it before. This nonsense about a lack of father mentioned is because her father is not the head of the household--the mother is. She and her father are close, but her mother controls pretty much every aspect of her daughter's life. I'm not saying this through hearsay either--I've seen and heard it myself. She does struggle with depression and anxiety, but I've known about this since we first became friends and as her and her boyfriend's 'relationship' continued (she wasn't 18 when this began, I may add--she was 16), she struggled more and more with both. I was friends with her boyfriend as well, before I found this out--while I was initally shocked (he seemed like a sweetheart), but I trust my friend, and, as I stated in my earlier posts, I was beginning to catch wind of what was going on before she told me. I am, quite frankly, highly insulted and disguested that you would dismiss a victom's story, that I have no reason to disbelieve, as she has never lied to me, nor I to her, and posted on this site looking for logical and helpful advice, and was shocked to see this dispiciable response when I had believed that I would be believed. I am, as I mentioned before, in training to be a Psychologist, and one of my specialities (it's a natural knack that's bested everyone I know), is that I know when people are lying. This girl was not lying. She is, however, terrified of basements (where the assults regularly occured), men (obviously), and touch. It's sad that you would doubt me; sadder that you would feel the need to post about it.

[hell2breakfast]

I'd trust that SongBird knows her friend and the situation better than any of us and that she is representing what she believes to be the truth here. Claiming the girl has mental issues and is lying simply because no father is mentioned seems a bit over the top.

Songbird asked for advice, I gave the best advice I could based on the info. I think we owe each other honesty, sorry if I gave you bad feelings. But, "I have this friend" is no way to get good advice, imo:)

[hell2breakfast]

Thank you, IrmaJean and Pesudome, for standing up for both myself and my friend.

Hell2Breakfast, allow me to make myself a little clearer: This girl is my best friend; I have known her for years, and I am very famliar with her ex boyfriend as well. SHE DID SAY NO, in case you need that in caps lock in order to read it, as I did indeed post it before. This nonsense about a lack of father mentioned is because her father is not the head of the household--the mother is. She and her father are close, but her mother controls pretty much every aspect of her daughter's life. I'm not saying this through hearsay either--I've seen and heard it myself. She does struggle with depression and anxiety, but I've known about this since we first became friends and as her and her boyfriend's 'relationship' continued (she wasn't 18 when this began, I may add--she was 16), she struggled more and more with both. I was friends with her boyfriend as well, before I found this out--while I was initally shocked (he seemed like a sweetheart), but I trust my friend, and, as I stated in my earlier posts, I was beginning to catch wind of what was going on before she told me. I am, quite frankly, highly insulted and disguested that you would dismiss a victom's story, that I have no reason to disbelieve, as she has never lied to me, nor I to her, and posted on this site looking for logical and helpful advice, and was shocked to see this dispiciable response when I had believed that I would be believed. I am, as I mentioned before, in training to be a Psychologist, and one of my specialities (it's a natural knack that's bested everyone I know), is that I know when people are lying. This girl was not lying. She is, however, terrified of basements (where the assults regularly occured), men (obviously), and touch. It's sad that you would doubt me; sadder that you would feel the need to post about it.

Nonesense?..insulted?..digusted?..dispicable? If you don't want my advice don't take it. No need to have an apoplectic fit. If you think she was abused report it to the proper authorities. We here have problems that are a little more profound and personal than "I think my friend was sexually abused"

[pseudome]

Songbird asked for advice, I gave the best advice I could based on the info.

She asked for advice, not judgment. You did not give advice based on the info she provided—you extrapolated your own conclusions.

I think we owe each other honesty, sorry if I gave you bad feelings.

Honesty is one thing, judgmental comments are quite another. She did not ask for advice as to whether or not her friend was lying and we have no reason to assume we can interpret the motives of her friend better than she can.

But, "I have this friend" is no way to get good advice, imo

What are you implying here?

If you don't want my advice don't take it. No need to have an apoplectic fit.

In my ever-so-humble opinion what you did was not give advice, but rather you passed unfounded judgments.

If you think she was abused report it to the proper authorities. We here have problems that are a little more profound and personal than "I think my friend was sexually abused"

If you feel the problems being addressed in someone’s thread are beneath you, then kindly ignore the thread. It is exceptionally rude of you to belittle the problems of others. These boards are designed to be a place of support.

[IrmaJean]

Let's everyone take a breath here.

H2B, please be respectful and do not undermine the feelings of Songbird. Let's get back to supporting one another.

[hell2breakfast]

Yes, I would imagine that Songbird has the best insights into her friend's situation.

It is very simple really, from my perspective. No means no. End of story. I think there is some confusion in thinking that because two people are within a relationship, it is okay. When one person involved says no, this is where it has to end.

Songbird, I think it's wise advice to tell her to trust her instincts. I hope she is able to find some good counseling that is helpful to her.

No means whatever you and I decide it means (absent outside influences)

example, there is a provence in eastern Europe where the young men commonly kidnapp the girl of his choice for marriage with her kicking and screaming (but not too hard) the whole time. Only rarely will the girl elect to go back home when she gets the opportunity.

Also, in russia no means nyet (check spelling). My point is that in human communication, there are verbal ques and nonverbal ques, by continuing to date her "abuser", and by picking him in the first place, and by allowing him to do what she didn't want him to do, her ACTIONS said yes.

Part of the problem with mental illness imo, is mixed signals, and failed communication, we put up false fronts in attempts to find intimacy/love, then when the cloathes come off the facade is still in the way. unless we are able to psychologically undress we are stuck with loneliness, therefore we need...I need... to try to be more honest in my dealings with people, and unfortunately this means some feathers will be ruffled.

You are quite correct, No means no legally with regard to rape and the definition thereof, but I would remind you that this was not the case in the past, fifty years ago a jury would laugh at sexual abuse charges in this case. And appropriately so, imo.

The real problem is the girl is troubled and needs help, the next guy she picks may think no means "strangle me"

[malign]

H2B,

Could I respectfully request that you turn your attention elsewhere?

Nothing you're saying here supports anyone else, except maybe the boyfriend we've never met. So what causes you to share them? I'm going to assume it's something that has or is happening to you, and frankly, I'd rather hear about that or nothing. Please?

[pseudome]

H2B-

I should probably leave my statement at what malign said, but I can’t. Perhaps I’ll delete this later (TRIGGER WARNING):

Suppose I ask you to give me your wallet. You tell me no. I ask again. You tell me no. I pull out a gun and hold it to your head and ask again. Now you willingly comply. Hence, when you said no, you didn’t really mean it, for your body language clearly said yes as you handed it to me.

My point is that in human communication, there are verbal ques and nonverbal ques, by continuing to date her "abuser", and by picking him in the first place, and by allowing him to do what she didn't want him to do, her ACTIONS said yes.

The gun to her head was his affection. The gun to her head was that he was physically stronger than she was. Also, not all of her actions even said yes. In SongBird’s original post, there are mentions of her friend pushing him away, sometimes violently. Just because someone stays with an abuser, does not mean there is no abuse. What of women whose husbands beat them? Does them staying in that relationship make it ok?

You are quite correct, No means no legally with regard to rape and the definition thereof, but I would remind you that this was not the case in the past, fifty years ago a jury would laugh at sexual abuse charges in this case.

There is a REASON this legally changed.

The real problem is the girl is troubled and needs help, the next guy she picks may think no means "strangle me"

If a guy thinks no means strangle me, it is the guy who is sick, not the girl saying no.

SongBird asked for support in regards to her friend. She did not ask for us to pass judgment on the validity of her friend's situation or experience. In a supportive community we assume the validity of people's concerns and emotions and we address those. If you feel unable to do that, leave the thread alone. If you have issues of your own about situations like these, start a new thread.

[IrmaJean]

This topic brings up a lot of emotions for many of us, I would imagine.

SongBird, I hope that your friend is able to get some counseling that will help her through this. She is very fortunate to have such a caring and supportive friend.

I'm also studying to be a psychologist. Best of luck in your studies.

[Verbally abused?]

Songbird, we are here to support you. Allan is right, she is very lucky to have such a good friend.

Sometimes, I find myself wondering if I would still be a "virgin" if I were not molested as a child.

[hell2breakfast]

H2B,

Could I respectfully request that you turn your attention elsewhere?

Nothing you're saying here supports anyone else, except maybe the boyfriend we've never met. So what causes you to share them? I'm going to assume it's something that has or is happening to you, and frankly, I'd rather hear about that or nothing. Please?

OK fine, I am sick to death of men getting blamed for all that ails women, It just don't pass the smell test, While it is true that more men today are slimeballs, most of them, if you will check, were RAISED by single women! Why are they single? because they CHOSE to have a child with a slimeball!

The evidence is all around you, and especially on this site. One can not venture an opinion or make a comment that can remotely be construed as even implying that some woman somewhere might somehow be in any way flawed EXCEPT if it was caused by a man. Never mind that it takes two to tango or that women, via their natural beauty, actually have MORE power in society when taking into consideration men are expected, no forbidden, to use our natural gift of physical strength to balance the power of physical beauty.

Futhermore, I just posted a similar question...poor downtrodden female... couched in similar language to the one I am getting beat up for, about an ACTUAL WOMAN THAT I KNOW PERSONALLY who is a drug addict and sociopath...the new nom de jure is " Antisocial Personality Disorder" to see if any one would have the guts to tell me that I shouldn't be enabling her sickness by giving her money to buy drugs ( which I stopped doing as soon as I got wise to her game btw)....IT WAS DELETED!

I respond on an "urgent need" thread that Songbirds friend is sick (verified by Songbird herself) and that she should be careful of an eighteen year-old college girl sexting her, and that if the friend was 18 (she was, according to Songbird) and she didn't say no (she didn't, according to guess who) then it (touching) was not sexual assault....IMO. WHOA! it was like I beat up a little old lady. How dare I even suggest that Songbird (a female) would have a female friend that could POSSIBLY be lying!

Well I have news for all of you, I happen to have been around the block a couple of times and I have learned that SUPPORT must stop short of ENABLING, and the TRUTH (as best i can see it) can not stand on ceremony or be politically correct! If you don't like it, you can kiss my ass! This won't be the first pop-psychology class i've flunked..BAN ME!! so you all can go on blowing smoke up eachothers ass!

[SongBird]

Thank you to everyone that has so kindly stood up for me and offered me hope and advice that I was able to pass onto my friend. I posted for help here because I have never been discouraged or doubted, only offered hope and advice which I took to heart. This forum is part of what kept me going when I was seriously struggling with depression, and I have never had a bad experience here up until this thread. I did not mean to insult anyone or insinuate blame--I don't believe her former boyfriend fully understood the extent of what he was doing to her, even though she did fight him often. Denial is a dangerous thing, as I'm sure many of us have come to realize. I didn't mean to start a big debate about my or my friend's trustworthiness, she simply wasn't sure what to do or where to turn, or even if what happened could truly be called sexual abuse and so I recieved her permission to post it here. Those who offered their advice and not their judgement are grately appreciated, and I am hoping that she will be able to seek counseling for the matter soon. As for reporting the matter or not, that is her choice to make, not mine. I will do my best to support and encourage her no matter what she decides to do. Again, thank (most of) you for your support, and I hope to one day be able to return the favor.

Blessings,

SongBird

[JaiJai]

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